Mary Jo warns Microsoft not to drink Web 2.0 koolaid

November 10, 2005 By

Mary Jo Foley warns Microsoft not to drink too much of the Web 2.0 koolaid in her post here.

Good advice. The real opportunity is in matching up an all Web strategy with an all-Windows strategy.

For instance, I am listening to Pandora here on my speakers while I work. Great service (and it’s now free, thanks TechCrunch for telling us that!) but I’d pay for a Windows application rather than having a Web based one. Why? I’d rather it be hidden on my task bar instead of being forced to take a browser window open. I’d pay for that capability. Also, I’d buy a subscription if it could put songs onto my computer for playing on my portable music device. Time shifting is really a big deal with this kind of service (I’m going to be stuck in a plane for two hours tomorrow and would like to have some new music to listen to there, why can’t Pandora supply it? I’d even pay $3 for two hours of music).

So, Mary Jo is right. We should learn from the Web 2.0 guys (which is why I’m going to the Riya launch party next Friday night) but we should match it with the best of Windows too.

In the meantime, I’m going to continue pushing hard in the direction of what most people are calling Web 2.0 (I call it anything that gets on TechCrunch). Why? Because I see significant business opportunities. I just think the real opportunities will come from what I call “the high def Web.”

What might this high def Web look like? Well, check out how you can make Yahoo maps fit into your Web page’s design better. That’s close. Now, how about making your Internet Connected Components fit into both the Web and into Windows? There’s huge opportunities there.

How about taking something like Microsoft Max (very cool, by the way) and making it work with the Web? See the opportunity yet? OK, keep watching. More ideas coming.

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  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    holy hell! thank you mister scoble, i did a search for ace of base and so far the last few tracks have been bloody amazing! introducing me to new artists and groups! this is EXACTLY why i loved napster.

    imagine if the “pandora engine” got integrated into iTunes… it would be the ultimate solution.

    PS: no one make fun of me because i like ace of base!

  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    holy hell! thank you mister scoble, i did a search for ace of base and so far the last few tracks have been bloody amazing! introducing me to new artists and groups! this is EXACTLY why i loved napster.

    imagine if the “pandora engine” got integrated into iTunes… it would be the ultimate solution.

    PS: no one make fun of me because i like ace of base!

  • http://25hoursaday.com/weblog Dare Obasanjo

    All-windows strategy? Google and Yahoo! aren’t saddled with the burden of only focusing on Windows. Why should we (Windows Live, MSN, whatever) have to handicap ourselves with that myopic view right out of the gate?

    Secondly, weren’t you just blogging about the problems with having two distinct businesses ship a product (SQL & Visual Studio) just a few days ago? Why is it a good thing when it comes to MSN (Windows Live) and Windows?

    Inquiring minds would like to know. ;)

  • http://25hoursaday.com/weblog Dare Obasanjo

    All-windows strategy? Google and Yahoo! aren’t saddled with the burden of only focusing on Windows. Why should we (Windows Live, MSN, whatever) have to handicap ourselves with that myopic view right out of the gate?

    Secondly, weren’t you just blogging about the problems with having two distinct businesses ship a product (SQL & Visual Studio) just a few days ago? Why is it a good thing when it comes to MSN (Windows Live) and Windows?

    Inquiring minds would like to know. ;)

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net/ Ryan Stewart

    Scoble, of course you’d like to have a Windows application that could take the place of some of your web based software, but what about the people who are creating these applications? While Windows still has a huge marketshare, doesn’t it make sense for people trying to reach the widest audience to develop for the Web so that Linux, Mac and Windows users can all use their software?

    Isn’t that part of the great thing about Web 2.0?

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net Ryan Stewart

    Scoble, of course you’d like to have a Windows application that could take the place of some of your web based software, but what about the people who are creating these applications? While Windows still has a huge marketshare, doesn’t it make sense for people trying to reach the widest audience to develop for the Web so that Linux, Mac and Windows users can all use their software?

    Isn’t that part of the great thing about Web 2.0?

  • sam

    Thanks for pointing to Pandora.

    Pandora reminds me that there are some useful web apps that can be made in Flash. But would anyone consider a Flash app “Web 2.0″?

  • sam

    Thanks for pointing to Pandora.

    Pandora reminds me that there are some useful web apps that can be made in Flash. But would anyone consider a Flash app “Web 2.0″?

  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    Wen 2.0 isn’t about flash, ajax, any of that, its about a community coming together and making a service worth it.

    I love Pandora, i’m with scoble on this, i would pay for this and i haven’t payed for music in years.

  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    Wen 2.0 isn’t about flash, ajax, any of that, its about a community coming together and making a service worth it.

    I love Pandora, i’m with scoble on this, i would pay for this and i haven’t payed for music in years.

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net/ Ryan Stewart

    Sam, I’m curious why you think that. Can you elaborate a little bit?

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net Ryan Stewart

    Sam, I’m curious why you think that. Can you elaborate a little bit?

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Dare and Ryan: Well, if I were doing a “service” like Pandora, I’d definitely do the Web one first. Why? Reach. But then I’d do one that’ll make a better experience.

    Now, what if we were to build tools that let you target the Web and Windows at the same time and do both with minimal extra effort?

    Dare: Windows Live — even if it’s a total failure — will sell hundreds of millions of copies over the first few years. I could build a pretty darn interesting business with a lot less than 200 million users.

    The Web 2.0 folks have their own religious limitations. By only going for reach they are missing the audience that’ll be more thrilled with a rich experience.

    I’m using Windows Vista and I have the new Sidebar. I see all sorts of opportunities to dock things like Pandora and Flickr and other ICC’s in there.

    That’s why we call it Windows Live and not just Live. It takes the best of the Web and mashes it into Windows.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Dare and Ryan: Well, if I were doing a “service” like Pandora, I’d definitely do the Web one first. Why? Reach. But then I’d do one that’ll make a better experience.

    Now, what if we were to build tools that let you target the Web and Windows at the same time and do both with minimal extra effort?

    Dare: Windows Live — even if it’s a total failure — will sell hundreds of millions of copies over the first few years. I could build a pretty darn interesting business with a lot less than 200 million users.

    The Web 2.0 folks have their own religious limitations. By only going for reach they are missing the audience that’ll be more thrilled with a rich experience.

    I’m using Windows Vista and I have the new Sidebar. I see all sorts of opportunities to dock things like Pandora and Flickr and other ICC’s in there.

    That’s why we call it Windows Live and not just Live. It takes the best of the Web and mashes it into Windows.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Sam: that’s why I call this “the high def Web” rather than Web 2.0. Web 2.0 already has too much baggage (go and read Dare’s blog for an example of the baggage, for instance).

    But Flash is certainly one of the ways you can add a little more richness to your services.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Sam: that’s why I call this “the high def Web” rather than Web 2.0. Web 2.0 already has too much baggage (go and read Dare’s blog for an example of the baggage, for instance).

    But Flash is certainly one of the ways you can add a little more richness to your services.

  • Chris

    “Windows Live — even if it’s a total failure — will sell hundreds of millions of copies over the first few years.”

    Copies of what?

  • Chris

    “Windows Live — even if it’s a total failure — will sell hundreds of millions of copies over the first few years.”

    Copies of what?

  • http://spaces.msn.com/members/mthddirector Matthew

    See, we’re back to the portability thing again. I’m hung up on Portable Connected Components – because I agree, that browser can be a ball-and-chain. Web 2.0 is rapidly taking on the proportions of a disjointed mini-OS without much desktop interaction. Which is why a big bear hug is in order here.

  • http://spaces.msn.com/members/mthddirector Matthew

    See, we’re back to the portability thing again. I’m hung up on Portable Connected Components – because I agree, that browser can be a ball-and-chain. Web 2.0 is rapidly taking on the proportions of a disjointed mini-OS without much desktop interaction. Which is why a big bear hug is in order here.

  • http://www.softwareandtools.com/ Tejas Patel

    Thanks for the link to Pandora.

  • http://www.softwareandtools.com Tejas Patel

    Thanks for the link to Pandora.

  • Ron M.

    I thought Windows Live was a portal website? How do you sell copies of that?

    Either you are f*cked in the head, Scoble, or Microsoft has a major branding snafu here.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Chris, sorry, I meant to say “Windows Vista.”

  • Ron M.

    I thought Windows Live was a portal website? How do you sell copies of that?

    Either you are f*cked in the head, Scoble, or Microsoft has a major branding snafu here.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Chris, sorry, I meant to say “Windows Vista.”

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Ron: sorry, I have a major branding snafu. :-)

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Ron: sorry, I have a major branding snafu. :-)

  • Ron M.

    Err.. is Microsoft Max just Picasa? Does anybody use these “one-off” Microsoft products at all? I keep finding these things scattered between Windows versions, never seeming to survive longer than a year or so.

    At least when I recommend Picasa to someone, I’ll be certain that it’ll be supported for at least a few Windows versions. These one-off Microsoft things seem to be OS-specific and often drop off the map.

  • Ron M.

    Err.. is Microsoft Max just Picasa? Does anybody use these “one-off” Microsoft products at all? I keep finding these things scattered between Windows versions, never seeming to survive longer than a year or so.

    At least when I recommend Picasa to someone, I’ll be certain that it’ll be supported for at least a few Windows versions. These one-off Microsoft things seem to be OS-specific and often drop off the map.

  • Mujibur

    Attempts to tie web apps to Windows will fail — particularly with corporations. Companies that are finally freeing themselves of Microsoft limitations (by moving to web applications) are not going to want to handcuff themselves again.

    On the consumer front, I think you overestimate consumers. People don’t want to download software onto their boxes because they are worried about spyware. They will sacrifice a rich experience for one that does not requires installation and promotes trial. It’s why the majority of folks use webmail today instead of a client mail application.

    Sure, there are certain apps (media manipulation) that will be client-side for some time. In general, however, we are entering an era where many compatibility issues are going to slowly evaporate. Why waste engineering resources trying to tie a customer to one platform when you can improve your product for all to enjoy? This is where Google will eat your lunch.

  • Mujibur

    Attempts to tie web apps to Windows will fail — particularly with corporations. Companies that are finally freeing themselves of Microsoft limitations (by moving to web applications) are not going to want to handcuff themselves again.

    On the consumer front, I think you overestimate consumers. People don’t want to download software onto their boxes because they are worried about spyware. They will sacrifice a rich experience for one that does not requires installation and promotes trial. It’s why the majority of folks use webmail today instead of a client mail application.

    Sure, there are certain apps (media manipulation) that will be client-side for some time. In general, however, we are entering an era where many compatibility issues are going to slowly evaporate. Why waste engineering resources trying to tie a customer to one platform when you can improve your product for all to enjoy? This is where Google will eat your lunch.

  • Mujibur

    “Now, what if we were to build tools that let you target the Web and Windows at the same time and do both with minimal extra effort?”

    How exactly would this allow you to have a richer experience on Windows? Because you could dock it in the sidebar? I really hope there is more to it than that.

    You are fighting ubiquity. Good luck with that.

  • Mujibur

    “Now, what if we were to build tools that let you target the Web and Windows at the same time and do both with minimal extra effort?”

    How exactly would this allow you to have a richer experience on Windows? Because you could dock it in the sidebar? I really hope there is more to it than that.

    You are fighting ubiquity. Good luck with that.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Mujibur: I’m not fighting ubiquity. Maybe some are here, but I’m not. But on the other hand I’ll never give up my Outlook for a Web app (and, yes, I’m on the beta of the new Hotmail which is better than Gmail IMO — neither holds a candle to the usability of Outlook).

    Ron: I can’t release the numbers, but yes, apps like Microsoft Max get a TON of downloads.

    Microsoft Messenger, for instance, has more than 170 million users who’ve used it in the past 30 days. And that’s even after Skype and Google Talk came out.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Mujibur: I’m not fighting ubiquity. Maybe some are here, but I’m not. But on the other hand I’ll never give up my Outlook for a Web app (and, yes, I’m on the beta of the new Hotmail which is better than Gmail IMO — neither holds a candle to the usability of Outlook).

    Ron: I can’t release the numbers, but yes, apps like Microsoft Max get a TON of downloads.

    Microsoft Messenger, for instance, has more than 170 million users who’ve used it in the past 30 days. And that’s even after Skype and Google Talk came out.

  • http://www.samsethi.net/ Sam Sethi

    Hi Robert

    In advance of your trip to Paris. A little phrase you may wish to keep in mind – “Plus Ça Change, Plus C’est La Même Chose”.

    The reason I mention this phrase is because it makes me smile everytime I see this debate around RSS, Ajax, Widgets and especially the Desktop v Web. Its the same smile I have when I see a classic song covered by some current pop band and my kids think it is their favourite pop bands own original work.

    5+ years ago I was working for Netscape in Europe, trying to explain a browser and how webservers would replace client/server model. I also talked about Push Technology, Active Desktop, Channel Definition Frameworks (CDF), Javascript etc.

    So IMHO apart from a few brand terms being refreshed and renamed – not a lot has really changed other than broadband/wireless technology making the always-on network more of a reality. But the one term that I expect to come back into Vogue is WEBTOP which is the non-Microsoft term you are trying to devise.

    So how long before we see the term Webtop 2.0?

    Sam

  • http://www.samsethi.net Sam Sethi

    Hi Robert

    In advance of your trip to Paris. A little phrase you may wish to keep in mind – “Plus Ça Change, Plus C’est La Même Chose”.

    The reason I mention this phrase is because it makes me smile everytime I see this debate around RSS, Ajax, Widgets and especially the Desktop v Web. Its the same smile I have when I see a classic song covered by some current pop band and my kids think it is their favourite pop bands own original work.

    5+ years ago I was working for Netscape in Europe, trying to explain a browser and how webservers would replace client/server model. I also talked about Push Technology, Active Desktop, Channel Definition Frameworks (CDF), Javascript etc.

    So IMHO apart from a few brand terms being refreshed and renamed – not a lot has really changed other than broadband/wireless technology making the always-on network more of a reality. But the one term that I expect to come back into Vogue is WEBTOP which is the non-Microsoft term you are trying to devise.

    So how long before we see the term Webtop 2.0?

    Sam

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Robert…Web technology doesn’t force a browser. Apple showed that with Dashboard, Konfabulator showed that even earlier.

    I have widgets that do all kinds of things for me, don’t need a browser to run them in. Hell, you can even run them outside of Dashboard if you like. they’re just wrappers for web technology, which is all the browser is.

    You really have to stop seeing this as a binary Browser / Fat client issue. It’s kinda not the way it is.

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Robert…Web technology doesn’t force a browser. Apple showed that with Dashboard, Konfabulator showed that even earlier.

    I have widgets that do all kinds of things for me, don’t need a browser to run them in. Hell, you can even run them outside of Dashboard if you like. they’re just wrappers for web technology, which is all the browser is.

    You really have to stop seeing this as a binary Browser / Fat client issue. It’s kinda not the way it is.

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Oh yeah…let’s get something straight…Outlook’s capability is amazing. Outlook’s usability blows arse with glass shards.

    there’s nothing there that’s even as close to as easy to use as is should be. Setting up delegation sucks, setting up rules sucks, they’ve never designed that UI to be easy to use, they’ve just designed it to be complex as hell, then thrown wizards and a bunch of other crap at it to hid that UI problem.

    Hell, it still has crappy IMAP.

    But that does bring up an interesting datapoint with regard to MS…you guys still confuse features with usability.

  • http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

    Oh yeah…let’s get something straight…Outlook’s capability is amazing. Outlook’s usability blows arse with glass shards.

    there’s nothing there that’s even as close to as easy to use as is should be. Setting up delegation sucks, setting up rules sucks, they’ve never designed that UI to be easy to use, they’ve just designed it to be complex as hell, then thrown wizards and a bunch of other crap at it to hid that UI problem.

    Hell, it still has crappy IMAP.

    But that does bring up an interesting datapoint with regard to MS…you guys still confuse features with usability.

  • Michael J Flox

    I saw this on Max “You just need a Microsoft Passport® network (or MSN® Hotmail) account.”

    and turned around. booo.

  • Michael J Flox

    I saw this on Max “You just need a Microsoft Passport® network (or MSN® Hotmail) account.”

    and turned around. booo.

  • Christopher Coulter

    Masterful…simply masterful.

    What is Web 2.0? You redefine the paradigm
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/11/web_two_point_naught_answers/

  • Christopher Coulter

    Masterful…simply masterful.

    What is Web 2.0? You redefine the paradigm
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11/11/web_two_point_naught_answers/

  • Farooq

    man i’m really getting tired of this Web 2.0 word…not world :) the normal consumer isn’t interested…it’s just a bunch of geeks running around thinking how cool this is…

    there are so many issues with so many of these things…e.g. Google mail is apparently the best service out there…it’s crashed on me SO many times…and these weren’t firefox errors…or anything else for that matter…

    i just started using Live Favorites and after 10 minutes of fiddling around…i don’t see any results…it’s just showing up one error after the other…so i gave up…

    im all for MS moving in the web services direction Scoble…but maybe the mantra should be different…maybe u need to tell the services ppl: DESIGN APPS LIKE THEY DESIGN THEM FOR WINDOWS!

  • Farooq

    man i’m really getting tired of this Web 2.0 word…not world :) the normal consumer isn’t interested…it’s just a bunch of geeks running around thinking how cool this is…

    there are so many issues with so many of these things…e.g. Google mail is apparently the best service out there…it’s crashed on me SO many times…and these weren’t firefox errors…or anything else for that matter…

    i just started using Live Favorites and after 10 minutes of fiddling around…i don’t see any results…it’s just showing up one error after the other…so i gave up…

    im all for MS moving in the web services direction Scoble…but maybe the mantra should be different…maybe u need to tell the services ppl: DESIGN APPS LIKE THEY DESIGN THEM FOR WINDOWS!

  • Christopher Coulter

    My contribution…

    Web 2.0 junction, what’s your function?
    Hooking up words and phrases and making ‘em function.
    Web 2.0 junction, how’s that function?
    I like tying up words and phrases and clauses.
    Web 2.0 junction, watch that function.

  • Christopher Coulter

    My contribution…

    Web 2.0 junction, what’s your function?
    Hooking up words and phrases and making ‘em function.
    Web 2.0 junction, how’s that function?
    I like tying up words and phrases and clauses.
    Web 2.0 junction, watch that function.

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