#40: A higher definition Web with Laszlo

November 17, 2005 By

I’m still making the tour of Silicon Valley to see ideas of what the Web of the future might look like. I’m talking with Co-founder and CTO of Laszlo, David Temkin, and Senior Product Marketing Manager, Lyndon Wong of Laszlo.

They are showing me their vision of the Web.  We’re talking about Flash. They are showing me their new Laszlomail. They are selling that to ISPs. Now, that alone might look interesting, but what’s real interesting is the development framework that they are building. I’ve written about their story before.

But their story is getting much better built out. Today you write Web applications using the Laszlo system in OpenLaszlo. Here’s a tutorial. Today it compiles that app into a SWF (Flash movie) but tomorrow? They are working on AJAX and .NET versions.

So, don’t look at LaszloMail as an email client. Look at it as a new kind of Web application. I call it the higher definition Web. Coming soon to a browser near you.

Filed Under: Blog Tips, Web
  • http://www.passingnotes.com/ Dave Carpe

    uh, a “suite of digital lifestyle applications” — good lord, this sounds like the same pitch from the to-be-launched at end of november “glide effortless” suite from transmediacorp.com – honestly, do these indies stand much of a chance in the face of the internet suite troika (ms, elgoog, yahoo)? or are these just folks dolling themselves up for acquisition? there are soooo many nifty ajax bent utilities for this kind of stuff, i’ve taken the time to round up over 20 of the best at passingnotes and that includes several for mail, calendaring, digital media management and so on and so on…but as for laszlo, it looks okay – but when i think of that particular name, i can ONLY think of father guido sarducci’s seminal work, “the laszlo letters” in which he made fun of every major corporation in america back in the 70′s (please, please read it – you will wet your pants laughing about his ideas for mcdonalds to separate ‘hot and cold’ – which in fact came to life years later as a real thing (hot side hot))…at any rate, i’m rambling, just wanted to say that laszlo is one of many, and many is not always more once the field gets grazed through acquisitions and the loners are left to die on the vine…

  • http://www.passingnotes.com Dave Carpe

    uh, a “suite of digital lifestyle applications” — good lord, this sounds like the same pitch from the to-be-launched at end of november “glide effortless” suite from transmediacorp.com – honestly, do these indies stand much of a chance in the face of the internet suite troika (ms, elgoog, yahoo)? or are these just folks dolling themselves up for acquisition? there are soooo many nifty ajax bent utilities for this kind of stuff, i’ve taken the time to round up over 20 of the best at passingnotes and that includes several for mail, calendaring, digital media management and so on and so on…but as for laszlo, it looks okay – but when i think of that particular name, i can ONLY think of father guido sarducci’s seminal work, “the laszlo letters” in which he made fun of every major corporation in america back in the 70′s (please, please read it – you will wet your pants laughing about his ideas for mcdonalds to separate ‘hot and cold’ – which in fact came to life years later as a real thing (hot side hot))…at any rate, i’m rambling, just wanted to say that laszlo is one of many, and many is not always more once the field gets grazed through acquisitions and the loners are left to die on the vine…

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net/ Ryan

    Come on Scoble, this is just a poor man’s Flex – http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/. This is a higher definition web, but it is much better off done in Flex than in Laszlo.

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net Ryan

    Come on Scoble, this is just a poor man’s Flex – http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/. This is a higher definition web, but it is much better off done in Flex than in Laszlo.

  • Brian

    I would check out a new app that just hit its public beta today — Gliffy. It is viso type app for the web built on the Gliffy framework. A very cool app!

  • Brian

    I would check out a new app that just hit its public beta today — Gliffy. It is viso type app for the web built on the Gliffy framework. A very cool app!

  • http://www.antisleep.com/ gse

    Hey Brian – I think you meant “built with OpenLaszlo”. :)

    And Ryan… come on, dude. You’re not even on Macro’s payroll!

    (disclaimer: I work @ Laszlo)

  • http://www.antisleep.com gse

    Hey Brian – I think you meant “built with OpenLaszlo”. :)

    And Ryan… come on, dude. You’re not even on Macro’s payroll!

    (disclaimer: I work @ Laszlo)

  • http://www.richbrownell.com/ Richard Brownell

    Ryan: Much as I think Flex is cool, there needs to be a poor man’s Flex. Why? There are a lot of poor people out there who might want the functionality (or similar) and not want or be able to pay the licensing fees.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com Richard Brownell

    Ryan: Much as I think Flex is cool, there needs to be a poor man’s Flex. Why? There are a lot of poor people out there who might want the functionality (or similar) and not want or be able to pay the licensing fees.

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net/ Ryan

    Richard, I buy that, and I think that’s the worst part of Flex is that it’s prohibitively expensive. Hopefully the new pricing structure will open it up to a wider range of people.

    GSE, I’ve got even more invested – my career!

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net Ryan

    Richard, I buy that, and I think that’s the worst part of Flex is that it’s prohibitively expensive. Hopefully the new pricing structure will open it up to a wider range of people.

    GSE, I’ve got even more invested – my career!

  • Christopher Coulter

    Flex for Consumers, would solve everything, Web and Hobbyist market, instead of just strict Enterprise, grow the market up but then grow it up from the down grassroots market (aka the Visual Studio Express route).

  • Christopher Coulter

    Flex for Consumers, would solve everything, Web and Hobbyist market, instead of just strict Enterprise, grow the market up but then grow it up from the down grassroots market (aka the Visual Studio Express route).

  • http://www.antisleep.com/ gse

    Ryan – Your career doesn’t hinge on taking potshots at technologies you don’t currently use.

    1. OpenLaszlo predates Flex. They copied it (and continue to, in some ways).

    2. Just because something is free, or smaller, doesn’t mean it’s worse. The “poor man’s” phrase may be accurate w.r.t. cost but it doesn’t mean much w.r.t. quality. Is Linux is a poor man’s Solaris?

  • http://www.antisleep.com gse

    Ryan – Your career doesn’t hinge on taking potshots at technologies you don’t currently use.

    1. OpenLaszlo predates Flex. They copied it (and continue to, in some ways).

    2. Just because something is free, or smaller, doesn’t mean it’s worse. The “poor man’s” phrase may be accurate w.r.t. cost but it doesn’t mean much w.r.t. quality. Is Linux is a poor man’s Solaris?

  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    VS is free, Eclipse is free, Suns tools are free now, this a trend Macromedia should follow.

  • http://edico.blogspot.com/ Stefan Constantinescu

    VS is free, Eclipse is free, Suns tools are free now, this a trend Macromedia should follow.

  • http://lazycoder.com/ Scott

    VS is free now, for one year. Actually only the Express versions are free. Big difference.

    When I see the VS Express editions shipping on the Vista DVD I’ll be impressed.

  • http://lazycoder.com Scott

    VS is free now, for one year. Actually only the Express versions are free. Big difference.

    When I see the VS Express editions shipping on the Vista DVD I’ll be impressed.

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  • http://www.ryanstewart.net/ Ryan

    gse,

    I wasn’t trying to take a potshot by any means and “poor man’s” wasn’t meant to be derogatory. I think Laszlo is a cool technology, and frankly, I think all web applications should be built in the Flex/Laszlo style; I just think Flex is better. I think the Macromedia developer community is more established and that the seamless integration with other Macromedia products (ColdFusion, Breeze, Flash Media Server) make it a better choice for people that can afford it.

    Competition is a great thing and the further you guys push Laszlo, the further the Flex team needs to go. So keep pushing it! The web will be better for it.

  • http://www.ryanstewart.net Ryan

    gse,

    I wasn’t trying to take a potshot by any means and “poor man’s” wasn’t meant to be derogatory. I think Laszlo is a cool technology, and frankly, I think all web applications should be built in the Flex/Laszlo style; I just think Flex is better. I think the Macromedia developer community is more established and that the seamless integration with other Macromedia products (ColdFusion, Breeze, Flash Media Server) make it a better choice for people that can afford it.

    Competition is a great thing and the further you guys push Laszlo, the further the Flex team needs to go. So keep pushing it! The web will be better for it.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com/ Richard Brownell

    Before we jump headfirst into everything being built in these rich internet app technologies, they need a bit more work on the accessibility side. Folks like the WaSP accessibility group are working hard to keep up with the internet, but it’ll take some time before things are hammered out. I think keeping an ear out for things like that is good for web developers, even if you aren’t able to make your sites accessible at this time.

    On this week’s TWiT, they linked to this guy: http://blindaccessjournal.com/ He’s a blind blogger and podcaster. And his blog is pretty good. It enlightened me on a few things that make you slap your head and say “duh!” to. For instance, those confirmation images that have garbled letters in them. How is a blind person supposed to get past those? Well, sites are supposed to include an audio version as well as an email link if all else fails (or if you’re blind and deaf).

    Smaller market? Yes. But it’s an important market, and in the government’s case, websites must by federal law comply to the 508 accessibility standards. My father-in-law is legally blind and my uncle-in-law is totally blind; he’s also an answer in Trivial Pursuit, as the blind man who tried to sail across the Atlantic Ocean by himself. Trouble is he went during hurricane season and ended up in Bermuda (good place to end up, IMHO!). Now he works for the American Association of People with Disabilities.

    So that’s helped me learn that these people are important as well. Anyway, that’s probably far too big a comment about one thing, especially since I’m sure many of you are like most of the web community (i.e. “screw em”). But I just wanted to toss it out there.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com Richard Brownell

    Before we jump headfirst into everything being built in these rich internet app technologies, they need a bit more work on the accessibility side. Folks like the WaSP accessibility group are working hard to keep up with the internet, but it’ll take some time before things are hammered out. I think keeping an ear out for things like that is good for web developers, even if you aren’t able to make your sites accessible at this time.

    On this week’s TWiT, they linked to this guy: http://blindaccessjournal.com/ He’s a blind blogger and podcaster. And his blog is pretty good. It enlightened me on a few things that make you slap your head and say “duh!” to. For instance, those confirmation images that have garbled letters in them. How is a blind person supposed to get past those? Well, sites are supposed to include an audio version as well as an email link if all else fails (or if you’re blind and deaf).

    Smaller market? Yes. But it’s an important market, and in the government’s case, websites must by federal law comply to the 508 accessibility standards. My father-in-law is legally blind and my uncle-in-law is totally blind; he’s also an answer in Trivial Pursuit, as the blind man who tried to sail across the Atlantic Ocean by himself. Trouble is he went during hurricane season and ended up in Bermuda (good place to end up, IMHO!). Now he works for the American Association of People with Disabilities.

    So that’s helped me learn that these people are important as well. Anyway, that’s probably far too big a comment about one thing, especially since I’m sure many of you are like most of the web community (i.e. “screw em”). But I just wanted to toss it out there.

  • http://bryanrieger.com/ Bryan Rieger

    Personally Ryan, I really want alternatives to Macromedia/Adobe. The fact that they are (going to be) one company now really makes me nervous – we need competition. Flash is great – no issues there, but I’ve built my business on Macromedia’s ‘future technologies’ in the past (Multiuser Server, SiteSpring, Generator, Central(?) etc.) and have been burned before. After a while you get tired of being a patsy, of broken promises and stupid management decisions.

    Open source tools/platforms such as OpenLaszlo give me the opportunity and incentive to help drive them to meet my company’s and consumers needs. I can’t say I ever had that feeling with Macromedia – definately not with Adobe.

    Also, I wouldn’t call OpenLaszlo a poor man’s Flex by any stretch of the imagination. It’s different. Same ends, very different means of getting there. Also, a vastly different potential down the road. SWF/Flash is convenient today (as was Director was in the 90′s) – what happens when Flash just isn’t the favoured ‘product/platform’ in a few years… what about your career then?

  • http://bryanrieger.com Bryan Rieger

    Personally Ryan, I really want alternatives to Macromedia/Adobe. The fact that they are (going to be) one company now really makes me nervous – we need competition. Flash is great – no issues there, but I’ve built my business on Macromedia’s ‘future technologies’ in the past (Multiuser Server, SiteSpring, Generator, Central(?) etc.) and have been burned before. After a while you get tired of being a patsy, of broken promises and stupid management decisions.

    Open source tools/platforms such as OpenLaszlo give me the opportunity and incentive to help drive them to meet my company’s and consumers needs. I can’t say I ever had that feeling with Macromedia – definately not with Adobe.

    Also, I wouldn’t call OpenLaszlo a poor man’s Flex by any stretch of the imagination. It’s different. Same ends, very different means of getting there. Also, a vastly different potential down the road. SWF/Flash is convenient today (as was Director was in the 90′s) – what happens when Flash just isn’t the favoured ‘product/platform’ in a few years… what about your career then?

  • http://www.DonHopkins.com/ Don Hopkins

    Here is the most important difference between OpenLaszlo and Flex:

    OpenLaszlo is designed to insulate you from Flash, and help you migrate to other technologies like DHTML and .NET as they mature.

    Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime.

    I think that’s an extremely important difference with long term implications, at least as important than the price (OpenLaszlo is free, Flex is quite expensive) and licensing (OpenLaszlo is open and free as in speech, Flex is closed and restricted).

    -Don

  • http://www.DonHopkins.com Don Hopkins

    Here is the most important difference between OpenLaszlo and Flex:

    OpenLaszlo is designed to insulate you from Flash, and help you migrate to other technologies like DHTML and .NET as they mature.

    Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime.

    I think that’s an extremely important difference with long term implications, at least as important than the price (OpenLaszlo is free, Flex is quite expensive) and licensing (OpenLaszlo is open and free as in speech, Flex is closed and restricted).

    -Don

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime.”

    I would hesitate to be so categorical, myself. Granted, the Macromedia Flash Player 8 does offer the most remarkable combination of power and reach of all Virtual Machines running on consumers’ computers (MFP8 surpassed Windows XP Service Pack 2 earlier this month, less than three months after its release!), but the MXML abstraction layer means that it would be reasonable for anyone to try to interpret it within other engines, to whatever abilities such alternate engines might possess.

    (On the accessibility post, you might be interested in doing more research, if you only recently learned of the exclusiveness of image-based CAPTCHA. Flash technologies (images, motion, audio and video) do help reach wider audiences than linear English text alone will do, and of course the screenreader issues have been illuminated for three, four years now.)

    jd/mm

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime.”

    I would hesitate to be so categorical, myself. Granted, the Macromedia Flash Player 8 does offer the most remarkable combination of power and reach of all Virtual Machines running on consumers’ computers (MFP8 surpassed Windows XP Service Pack 2 earlier this month, less than three months after its release!), but the MXML abstraction layer means that it would be reasonable for anyone to try to interpret it within other engines, to whatever abilities such alternate engines might possess.

    (On the accessibility post, you might be interested in doing more research, if you only recently learned of the exclusiveness of image-based CAPTCHA. Flash technologies (images, motion, audio and video) do help reach wider audiences than linear English text alone will do, and of course the screenreader issues have been illuminated for three, four years now.)

    jd/mm

  • Jason

    To Don Hopkins
    “Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime”

    Not sure where you heard this, or what part of your imagination came up with it, but it is simply not true. A .net version is coming, the framework can be downloaded and adapted to other platforms. You can hook into any web service or http service, can talk to javascript/Java, I could go on but won’t. Macromedia has always been open (compared to MS) and so is Adobe.

    “OpenLaszlo is free, Flex is quite expensive”

    If you consider an under 1000$ one time fee expensive for a platform of that type, that allows the things it does, then you may want to start rethinking your career choices.

    OpenLaszlo can in no way be compared to Flex. I feel much safer using a product that I know will be evolved, having a entire team of paid developers working on a product keeping it up to date, marketing, management, testing, all that provides comfort. I don’t mind paying a fair price for a product; that nurtures the evolution that is required for a product to succeed and help me succeed.

    Jason

  • Jason

    To Don Hopkins
    “Flex is designed to lock you into Flash, plain and simple. It will never support any other runtime”

    Not sure where you heard this, or what part of your imagination came up with it, but it is simply not true. A .net version is coming, the framework can be downloaded and adapted to other platforms. You can hook into any web service or http service, can talk to javascript/Java, I could go on but won’t. Macromedia has always been open (compared to MS) and so is Adobe.

    “OpenLaszlo is free, Flex is quite expensive”

    If you consider an under 1000$ one time fee expensive for a platform of that type, that allows the things it does, then you may want to start rethinking your career choices.

    OpenLaszlo can in no way be compared to Flex. I feel much safer using a product that I know will be evolved, having a entire team of paid developers working on a product keeping it up to date, marketing, management, testing, all that provides comfort. I don’t mind paying a fair price for a product; that nurtures the evolution that is required for a product to succeed and help me succeed.

    Jason

  • Mookie

    As to Ryan’s ‘poor man’s Flex’ comments… I will go back to my poor mans OS (Linux) and my poor mans browser (Firefox), and find another poor mans publishing system (Blog) to express my criticizing what I don’t know about.

  • Mookie

    As to Ryan’s ‘poor man’s Flex’ comments… I will go back to my poor mans OS (Linux) and my poor mans browser (Firefox), and find another poor mans publishing system (Blog) to express my criticizing what I don’t know about.

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  • http://www.classadsuk.com/ebay russ

    i must say i had nevr heard much about this untill today i think i shall have to take a closer look at lazlo

  • http://www.classadsuk.com/ebay russ

    i must say i had nevr heard much about this untill today i think i shall have to take a closer look at lazlo