A better permalink? Or is that “purplelink?”

November 22, 2005 By

Doug Engelbart mentioned purple numbers last week during dinner and I was just reminded about that again so I went and did some research on what they are. I guess I missed that whole meme, which demonstrates yet again just how hard it is to get the world to change. We’re being thrown so much information it’s hard to hear every idea. Anyway, Eugene Kim’s blog has the details and his site has more. You can see Doug’s Website with purple numbers here.

I think they’d drive me nuts because I often add a paragraph after publishing, or edit things, but, realistically, that’s just a tool problem. Keeping these from breaking would be difficult. What do you think?

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  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen

    It has been a long time ago since I last heard about “Purple numbers”. The idea is very good, but as you say, nobody is going to do this manually, and in all those months (years?) since the original idea, nobody implemented it in any CMS.

  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen

    It has been a long time ago since I last heard about “Purple numbers”. The idea is very good, but as you say, nobody is going to do this manually, and in all those months (years?) since the original idea, nobody implemented it in any CMS.

  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen

    It has been a long time ago since I last heard about “Purple numbers”. The idea is very good, but as you say, nobody is going to do this manually, and in all those months (years?) since the original idea, nobody implemented it in any CMS.

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    That is truly ghastly! I’m sure there is a place for it in long documents about specific subjects – but the usage in these examples alone is just plain daft. I would stop reading blogs written like that, just the same way I would stop reading any other badly formatted or presented blog.

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    That is truly ghastly! I’m sure there is a place for it in long documents about specific subjects – but the usage in these examples alone is just plain daft. I would stop reading blogs written like that, just the same way I would stop reading any other badly formatted or presented blog.

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    That is truly ghastly! I’m sure there is a place for it in long documents about specific subjects – but the usage in these examples alone is just plain daft. I would stop reading blogs written like that, just the same way I would stop reading any other badly formatted or presented blog.

  • http://www.human-landscaping.com/ bill daul

    I think Eugene Kim and/or Peter Yim know of a tool that automagically create the number…wait until dawn when Eugene reads this.

    –bill

  • http://www.human-landscaping.com/ bill daul

    I think Eugene Kim and/or Peter Yim know of a tool that automagically create the number…wait until dawn when Eugene reads this.

    –bill

  • http://www.human-landscaping.com bill daul

    I think Eugene Kim and/or Peter Yim know of a tool that automagically create the number…wait until dawn when Eugene reads this.

    –bill

  • http://scripting.wordpress.com/ scripting

    There are ways to do it that don’t break, I do it on Scripting News.

    But instead of using a sequence number, which breaks (as Scoble notes), I use the time the paragraph was created (which breaks if you create two paragraphs in the same second, hard to do). That way you can add a paragraph in the middle, or even move them around, and the permalinks don’t break (I don’t bother displaying a number, people don’t need that, the machines do, so the number is encoded in the url as a time).

    Now that said, I don’t bother generating them for sub-paragraphs. I could, but I think that’s a bit anal.

  • http://scripting.wordpress.com/ scripting

    There are ways to do it that don’t break, I do it on Scripting News.

    But instead of using a sequence number, which breaks (as Scoble notes), I use the time the paragraph was created (which breaks if you create two paragraphs in the same second, hard to do). That way you can add a paragraph in the middle, or even move them around, and the permalinks don’t break (I don’t bother displaying a number, people don’t need that, the machines do, so the number is encoded in the url as a time).

    Now that said, I don’t bother generating them for sub-paragraphs. I could, but I think that’s a bit anal.

  • http://scripting.wordpress.com/ scripting

    There are ways to do it that don’t break, I do it on Scripting News.

    But instead of using a sequence number, which breaks (as Scoble notes), I use the time the paragraph was created (which breaks if you create two paragraphs in the same second, hard to do). That way you can add a paragraph in the middle, or even move them around, and the permalinks don’t break (I don’t bother displaying a number, people don’t need that, the machines do, so the number is encoded in the url as a time).

    Now that said, I don’t bother generating them for sub-paragraphs. I could, but I think that’s a bit anal.

  • Anonymous

    I think they’re excellent. The problem may be in how they are displayed. But the ability to reference specific concepts, areas of thought and such in text can be very useful for search and aggregation of idea areas. This is in the realm of tagging and should be encouraged and supported.

  • Anonymous

    I think they’re excellent. The problem may be in how they are displayed. But the ability to reference specific concepts, areas of thought and such in text can be very useful for search and aggregation of idea areas. This is in the realm of tagging and should be encouraged and supported.

  • http://www.cirne.com Enric

    I think they’re excellent. The problem may be in how they are displayed. But the ability to reference specific concepts, areas of thought and such in text can be very useful for search and aggregation of idea areas. This is in the realm of tagging and should be encouraged and supported.

  • http://weblog.janek.org/ Janek Schwarz

    I read “An Introduction to Purple” and find the numbers distracting.

    I dont’t think, a single paragraph is this important. I’ve never felt the urge to link to a single paragraph.

    I mean, every composition by Mozart is referenced by it’s Köchel catalogue number. If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.

    Janek.

  • http://weblog.janek.org/ Janek Schwarz

    I read “An Introduction to Purple” and find the numbers distracting.

    I dont’t think, a single paragraph is this important. I’ve never felt the urge to link to a single paragraph.

    I mean, every composition by Mozart is referenced by it’s Köchel catalogue number. If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.

    Janek.

  • http://weblog.janek.org Janek Schwarz

    I read “An Introduction to Purple” and find the numbers distracting.

    I dont’t think, a single paragraph is this important. I’ve never felt the urge to link to a single paragraph.

    I mean, every composition by Mozart is referenced by it’s Köchel catalogue number. If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.

    Janek.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Janek: being able to link directly to a paragraph is nice. The display of purple numbers might not be good, but look at http://www.scripting.com — Dave Winer uses a similar concept.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Janek: being able to link directly to a paragraph is nice. The display of purple numbers might not be good, but look at http://www.scripting.com — Dave Winer uses a similar concept.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Janek: being able to link directly to a paragraph is nice. The display of purple numbers might not be good, but look at http://www.scripting.com — Dave Winer uses a similar concept.

  • Anonymous

    Purple Numbers are a great idea, though some folks, like Tim Bray, prefer Purple Pilcrows:

    http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/05/29/PurpleNumbers

    Though they boil down to the same idea, I think the granularity of purple is slightly different than Dave’s permalinks. Purple numbers appear within (the equivalent of) a single blog/RSS item, whereas the permalinks are per-item. It looks the same in Dave’s case because he only has one paragraph per item.

    You might also want to check out Annotea, which allows you to mark pieces of a doc with per-character precision (using XPointer).

  • Anonymous

    Purple Numbers are a great idea, though some folks, like Tim Bray, prefer Purple Pilcrows:

    http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/05/29/PurpleNumbers

    Though they boil down to the same idea, I think the granularity of purple is slightly different than Dave’s permalinks. Purple numbers appear within (the equivalent of) a single blog/RSS item, whereas the permalinks are per-item. It looks the same in Dave’s case because he only has one paragraph per item.

    You might also want to check out Annotea, which allows you to mark pieces of a doc with per-character precision (using XPointer).

  • http://dannyayers.com Danny

    Purple Numbers are a great idea, though some folks, like Tim Bray, prefer Purple Pilcrows:

    http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/05/29/PurpleNumbers

    Though they boil down to the same idea, I think the granularity of purple is slightly different than Dave’s permalinks. Purple numbers appear within (the equivalent of) a single blog/RSS item, whereas the permalinks are per-item. It looks the same in Dave’s case because he only has one paragraph per item.

    You might also want to check out Annotea, which allows you to mark pieces of a doc with per-character precision (using XPointer).

  • Anonymous
  • Anonymous
  • http://dannyayers.com Danny
  • Anonymous

    btw, loads of CMSs have Purple implementations, e.g. there are at least two for WordPress:

    http://wiki.wordpress.org/?pagename=PurpleNumbers

  • Anonymous

    btw, loads of CMSs have Purple implementations, e.g. there are at least two for WordPress:

    http://wiki.wordpress.org/?pagename=PurpleNumbers

  • http://dannyayers.com Danny

    btw, loads of CMSs have Purple implementations, e.g. there are at least two for WordPress:

    http://wiki.wordpress.org/?pagename=PurpleNumbers

  • http://www.willgaus.blogspot.com/ Will Gaus

    Rather than posting purple numbers why dont you incorporate the links into the contents of the post. Information Mapping pushes chunking all info to make it easier to scan while labeling each chunk of information with a title. Make the title the permalink rather than 3C. The purple numbers are noise to a casual reader, by incorporating the idea into the actual content you add value to those who want the links while not disrupting the flow of the information.

    Plus a title link is more relevant to the actual content of what you are linking to.

  • http://www.willgaus.blogspot.com/ Will Gaus

    Rather than posting purple numbers why dont you incorporate the links into the contents of the post. Information Mapping pushes chunking all info to make it easier to scan while labeling each chunk of information with a title. Make the title the permalink rather than 3C. The purple numbers are noise to a casual reader, by incorporating the idea into the actual content you add value to those who want the links while not disrupting the flow of the information.

    Plus a title link is more relevant to the actual content of what you are linking to.

  • http://www.willgaus.blogspot.com Will Gaus

    Rather than posting purple numbers why dont you incorporate the links into the contents of the post. Information Mapping pushes chunking all info to make it easier to scan while labeling each chunk of information with a title. Make the title the permalink rather than 3C. The purple numbers are noise to a casual reader, by incorporating the idea into the actual content you add value to those who want the links while not disrupting the flow of the information.

    Plus a title link is more relevant to the actual content of what you are linking to.

  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen Sangers

    I stand corrected. I really like the logic of Dave’s implementation of Purple Numbers.
    BTW, does anybody know about a Movable Type implementation?

  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen Sangers

    I stand corrected. I really like the logic of Dave’s implementation of Purple Numbers.
    BTW, does anybody know about a Movable Type implementation?

  • http://braintags.com/ Jeroen Sangers

    I stand corrected. I really like the logic of Dave’s implementation of Purple Numbers.
    BTW, does anybody know about a Movable Type implementation?

  • http://www.richbrownell.com/ Richard Brownell

    Janek: bad example. With Köchel numbers, measure numbers, beats, subdivisions, and note names, I can in plain English bring you to each exact note in a Mozart piece.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com/ Richard Brownell

    Janek: bad example. With Köchel numbers, measure numbers, beats, subdivisions, and note names, I can in plain English bring you to each exact note in a Mozart piece.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com Richard Brownell

    Janek: bad example. With Köchel numbers, measure numbers, beats, subdivisions, and note names, I can in plain English bring you to each exact note in a Mozart piece.

  • http://lesscode.org/ Bill Burcham
  • http://lesscode.org/ Bill Burcham
  • http://lesscode.org Bill Burcham
  • http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/mt/ Chris Dent

    The fun with identifiers like PurpleNumbers grows exponentially when you start using it to allow TransClusion.

    Everybody always hits on the issue of purple number ugliness. In the earlier implementations that I’ve been involved with, making the numbers very apparent was important so that people knew they were there and had that moment of discovery. CSS and other tools can help constrain the presentation of the numbers.

    In the end the implementation of granular addressability and transclusion isn’t really that important: it’s getting the concepts into brains so it can be improved and evolve. Small, simple, reusable chunks help build a complex and interesting world.

  • http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/mt/ Chris Dent

    The fun with identifiers like PurpleNumbers grows exponentially when you start using it to allow TransClusion.

    Everybody always hits on the issue of purple number ugliness. In the earlier implementations that I’ve been involved with, making the numbers very apparent was important so that people knew they were there and had that moment of discovery. CSS and other tools can help constrain the presentation of the numbers.

    In the end the implementation of granular addressability and transclusion isn’t really that important: it’s getting the concepts into brains so it can be improved and evolve. Small, simple, reusable chunks help build a complex and interesting world.

  • http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/mt/ Chris Dent

    The fun with identifiers like PurpleNumbers grows exponentially when you start using it to allow TransClusion.

    Everybody always hits on the issue of purple number ugliness. In the earlier implementations that I’ve been involved with, making the numbers very apparent was important so that people knew they were there and had that moment of discovery. CSS and other tools can help constrain the presentation of the numbers.

    In the end the implementation of granular addressability and transclusion isn’t really that important: it’s getting the concepts into brains so it can be improved and evolve. Small, simple, reusable chunks help build a complex and interesting world.

  • http://faculty.deanza.edu/ Dan

    Janek wrote: ” If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.”

    Actually, it isn’t. The “K number” gets you to the desired composition (though there can be multiple versions) but then you may also specify the movement within the piece and even the section of a movement. (For example, 1st theme of in the exposition section of the first movement of symphony #40.)

    Fun stuff…

    Dan

  • http://faculty.deanza.edu/ Dan

    Janek wrote: ” If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.”

    Actually, it isn’t. The “K number” gets you to the desired composition (though there can be multiple versions) but then you may also specify the movement within the piece and even the section of a movement. (For example, 1st theme of in the exposition section of the first movement of symphony #40.)

    Fun stuff…

    Dan

  • http://faculty.deanza.edu/ Dan

    Janek wrote: ” If a simple number per piece is enough for Mozart’s art, it sure is sufficient for my lame attempts at writing.”

    Actually, it isn’t. The “K number” gets you to the desired composition (though there can be multiple versions) but then you may also specify the movement within the piece and even the section of a movement. (For example, 1st theme of in the exposition section of the first movement of symphony #40.)

    Fun stuff…

    Dan

  • http://tomisblogging.com/ -tom

    There has to be a better way than this. I can see why they are useful, and I think it would be really nice to have some implementation of this concept, and I like the Bible example I just read, but visually it looks bad. And (as has been said before) implementation would be a bit of a nightmare.

    There are bound to be places were you would want to only reference a single *sentance*, for instance – it would be really amazingly cool if my browser let me highlight part of a text and create a permalink out of it, which if you referenced it, would go to the page, scroll to the right bit of it and highlight the section. It’s overheating my brain a little trying to think through the implementation of that(!) – but I don’t think these purple numbers are it. It’s got me thinking though… :)

  • http://tomisblogging.com/ -tom

    There has to be a better way than this. I can see why they are useful, and I think it would be really nice to have some implementation of this concept, and I like the Bible example I just read, but visually it looks bad. And (as has been said before) implementation would be a bit of a nightmare.

    There are bound to be places were you would want to only reference a single *sentance*, for instance – it would be really amazingly cool if my browser let me highlight part of a text and create a permalink out of it, which if you referenced it, would go to the page, scroll to the right bit of it and highlight the section. It’s overheating my brain a little trying to think through the implementation of that(!) – but I don’t think these purple numbers are it. It’s got me thinking though… :)

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