Digi says Xbox 360s are €609

Here (Hamburg, Germany) it's either 299 or 399 Euro. They also have Bundles for 470 wich includes the premium system + 2 games of your choice.

"games on the Xbox 360 are a lot better than anything on a PC"
Clearly you've not seen many PC games then. I'd like to see anything like Battlefield2 on the XBox and no, the crappy console port doesn't count.

£279 in the UK, which I think is an absolute bargain

"games on the Xbox 360 are a lot better than anything on a PC"
You gotta be kidding me! My PC will never become obsolete, I just upgrade it's hardware - unlike the consoles.
PC breeds innovation, consoles require licenced hardware (dev kits) and a game that is guarenteed to return profit (safe ideas) thus hindering creativity.
How a game like Alien Hominid (http://www.alienhominid.com/) ever managed to get published is beyond me! No, wait - they had to re-mortage their homes!

Digi.

Don't generalize the argument. He said "a lot better than anything on a PC that I’ve seen". So maybe he just has not seen it all. And either way, it's the price point really. A 299 EUR PC just doesn't have the same power as the 360. I'm a PC Gamer as well, and I spend like 250 EUR for my last graphics card alone.

Niall: have you played an Xbox 360 on an HDTV screen?

I know there are people out there who pay $400 just for their video cards, but unless you're one of them games are gonna be better on a console for the most part.

Scoble - there are no HDTV programs out yet in Europe, and consequently no HDTV screens (other than LCD's meant as computer screens, of course).

Legalese lingo mode on :)

Except as expressly provided otherwise in a written agreement between you and Microsoft all such is provided on an "as is" basis without any warranties of any kind, either express or implied, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability or fitness for purpose. Without limiting the foregoing, Microsoft makes no warranty that (i) the Xbox 360 will work; (ii) the Xbox 360 will be uninterrupted, timely, secure, or error-free; (iii) the power supply can be used as heating unit.

I Love my PC (Don't tell the wife) and I'm gonna get an Xbox but at the end of the day, I'm still gonna Love my PC, can't read blogs on an Xbox yet.

I think a gaming console is not meant to be a replacement for a PC, and with its Media Center capabilities the XBox shows that its just a part of your entertainment center, extending your PC's features and reach.

Oh, and do you really think Microsoft will ever produce a device which would be make a PC obsolete?

Robert, in response to your question (comment no. 6) no I have not (yet) but I have played it on a nice LCD screen. Factor in the cost of this screen and you'd have a better PC with a greater variety of games to choose from. I have both a Playstation 2 and an XBox and to be honest - I play my PSP more than any of them!

I will consider the XBox 360, obviously when the price comes down a bit (and if you manage to convince the powers that be to make a mouse & keyboard for it!)

FPS games are just not as good without WASD & a mouse! :)

Digi.

Talking with some of the european community via the Xbox.com forums, alot of them said it is a good deal.

Now, what Microsoft offers it at, and what a store offers it at (usually bundled) is a different story. Look at gamestop.com, the cheapest one was like $600 (USD)

All of the video quality in the world will not save bad gameplay and inferior control interfaces.

I'm sorry but Xbox 360 will never touch PC graphics. Yes I did play an Xbox 360, my friend came over and we plugged it in my 67 inch hdtv, set the output to 1080i since my TV upconverts everything to 1080p and I really wasn't that impressed.

There is a difference sitting 6 feet away and sitting 6 inches away. The games weren't that addivitve anyways, we played PGR3, Madden 2006, and Kameno.

The funny thing is, by the time the xbox 360 gets popular with enough AAA titles under it's belt then the video cards out today will be cheaper than cheap.

You can get a x800xt or an x850xt for less than 300 dollars everywhere, and that thing will play the latest games beautifully.

Vista will be the ultimate gaming platform, not the xbox 360.

Personally I'm waiting for the nintendo revolution simply because of the fact that they are going to be offering their entire back catalog via emulation.

My favorite console EVER is a tie between the SNES and the Sega Dreamcast. If Microsoft wants to buy any more game studios... buy Sega. Those guys need a helping hand, and they are damn good designers to boot.

Robert - I hope you can understand how those of us in the US who are searching for Xbox 360s, both online and off, are exasperated with Microsoft and the way it has handled the rollout. Xbox 360 is coming to Europe! Yeeha! And those of us who are doing the store-to-store search in vain should be excited about this? This WAS a designed shortage by Microsoft, with a conscious decision to accept inventory shortages in the US to facilitate the European launch. The real pricing crime at the moment is the pricing on eBay, which is the only place US residents can reliably expect to find an Xbox 360, at premiums of $250 to $400 above retail.

Our household is a major Xbox consumer. We had to travel Tuesday for Thanksgiving, and couldn't hit any stores until afternoon. All sold out, everywhere. Now we're screwed, and all the info from Microsoft is just crap, and the information from retailers is even more incredible crap. The EBGames website is citing March 2006 delivery dates. If that's bull, someone from Microsoft can certainly pick up the phone and fix that misinformation. But nobody does.

Microsoft has about a million blogs now, including yours. It's a powerful megaphone. Why not use it to provide real, reliable information to customers? Cause what's happening now is just not working on any level.

Hey RichM,

MS are pulling out all the stops to release worldwide almost simulataneously which is an unbelievable feat to achieve - yes, some americans might not get one, but there is the rest of the world to consider!!

"PC breeds innovation, consoles require licenced hardware (dev kits) and a game that is guarenteed to return profit (safe ideas) thus hindering creativity."

Sorry dude, but look at the PC game selection. The PC game market is currently in one of its most stagnant periods ever. The only games worth playing typically come from Blizzard, Microsoft (two big titles this year), and other super high calibur companies. And there are typically maybe 5-6 games worth playing each year. Even the FPS PC market has dwindled. The strongest market on PC right now is for MMORPGs and if you think there's much "innovation" going on there, your brain must be jelly :P Sadly, the adventure/point-and-click market has dwindled and largely lost its talent/creativity. They are STILL churning out Myst clones.

On the console market, we get games like Katamari Damacy, Shadow of the Colossus, all of Nintendo's games, games like Rez, music games like DDR and Guitar Hero, pretty much the entire Japanese market, hell even most of the American and European developers as well, who churn out games like Prince of Persia and God of War, not to mention every sports and racing game.

The PC vs. console games debate was cute in the mid-90s, but there is absolutely no contest now. Take it from somebody who's job is to cover such things.

Yeah but my PC won't crash every 30 minutes :)

I am curious to see what the next version of Direct X, along with the new driver model is going to do to gaming on the PC.

People always get their panties in a bunch when a new console comes out and says that PC gaming is dead or going to die or it should die blah blah blah blah.

Every freakin generation. And you know what, we always win :P

"Scoble - there are no HDTV programs out yet in Europe, and consequently no HDTV screens"

erm... Check your local retailer, most lcds and plasmas in the uk are now all HDTV Ready, non-HDs are starting to be reduced like crazy. 1080p sets are still rare in shops but they are available...

Anyway, I'm not getting an xbox just yet, I'm a playstation man and am yet to be convinced that I'm getting any more out of an xbox that I can't get out of my 3 year old PC with a (now) £50 graphics card. Half Life 2 runs great, Civ IV runs great. I'm happy :)

I suspect my perception will change once I see one running on a 40" HD tv... ;)

I am still amazed at how colossally trainwrecked this ill-advised worldwide roll-out strategy has become. First, pretty poor backwards compatibility, my games roughly only 50% supported. Then basic Supply Chain Management seemingly, is not something MFST seems aware of. And then to be hit with the very real and more widespread than they will ever admit, overheating and hardware failure reports.

Meanwhile the marketing fluff balls are bouncing on like nothing has happened, spending zillions on parties, giveways, Hollywood glitz and hype, all to sell what Sony will in half a quarter. I went into this the biggest fanboy, drinking way more Dew than good for my health, and after having to wait until God knows when to get my own and then making the Holiday rounds at my darned lucky friends and seeing firsthand 3 locking up units (uncanny) and having to do elaborate placements with string and fans to get COD2 to play for more than 15-20 mins. And then watching a Christmasy DVD and needing a sound muffler for whatever that DVD was doing. Geeeesus.

Add it all up, talk about losing your religion. PS3 Scene got my bookmark now. Maybe I will revisit in awhile, but my old Xbox, working just fine. I will wait, actually I have no choice, what 6 months before I will even be able to breathe near one.

I'm still amazed that Christopher has nothing better to do, than post disparaging remarks within blog comments.

;o)

When I upgraded my PS1 to the PS2 I never played any of the old games again. NEVER!! they were obsolete. I don't really care if the 360 can play the old games.

I also don't care that much about how many are out there. I can wait. I didn't have one last month, If i don't have one this month, or next, its hardly gonna kill me, unless there is some kind of emergency that requires me to drive a supercar, or play football in the world cup.

Seriously everyone needs to just chill, its just a game.

"I know there are people out there who pay $400 just for their video cards, but unless you’re one of them games are gonna be better on a console for the most part."

Ah, the console vs PC. Isn't it great how when a new console comes out, the graphics hardware is ahead of PCs, so all the shills are like "Look at those graphics!"

Then, when 6 months later, PC gfx cards have inevitably overtaken the console and move ever forward while the console hardware remains constant for 4-5 years, it turns into "We're all about building great gameplay and rewarding player scenarios" etc.

Funny, that :)

Chris - do you know how many people are having hardware problems with their 360s? Oh that's right, you don't.

We're not talking about a design flaw or poor QA. We're talking about a few isolated shipping damages and maybe 1 or 2 defective units that somehow slipped through the rigorous testing process. Of the dozens of people I know with X360s, none have had any problems at all.

1UP ran a story suggesting that there's evidence Sony has been paying workers at one of its subsidiaries to post false impressions of the 360. Could be BS (can't tell if the story was pulled or what happened exactly), but this is the company that installed a rootkit on your computer just last week...

I gotta side with Battlefield 2 on the PC. Call to Duty 2 looked great on the 360 at Walmart, but playing it with a joypad is like eating a fine steak through a blender and straw. Give me a mouse/keyboard any day.

Brandon,

Do YOU have the numbers to back up your "1 or 2 defective units"? ;)

I've seen at least 3 different videos posted that show PGR crashing on a 360.

"Yeah but my PC won’t crash every 30 minutes"

Jesse? Are you an Apple owner? :)
(disclaimer, the last time I had to reboot my XP box was 4 days ago and that was because the update to DivX creator told me to. Otherwise it's run fine for a while)

I still think PC graphics are great. My PC is not 2000 dollars and it plays all the latest games fine, on high graphics.

299 and 399 Euros in Spain, checked today with a major retailer...

Here in Europe there's HDTV screens all over the place. In Newport both the Panasonic and Sony stores were full of them. They were quite a bit more expensive than in the states, though.

Brandon, stop it with the Sony-is-all-behind-it conspriacy theories, this is very real.

We’re not talking about a design flaw or poor QA.

Yes you are. You might want to retract that statement in a few days. I know stuff.

Consoles are still the cheapest way to get fun. I read some people saying how much an ATI card costs, I think they forgot that you can't play games on that card only, you still need a...um, computer with it. So now we go into the thousand+ barrier.

Just to give a example of the definition of console gaming, take one OLD playstation 2 console today (it came out 6 years ago if I remember well in the states), and play God of War. Try doing that with a 6 year old PC...can it run Doom 3 and still look amazing? didn't think so...

You'd be amazed what a PC can do when you limit yourself to 640x480.

Personally, I could care less what a PC "can" do. I care what a machine DOES do, or put better, what developers create for a machine. The developers I care about, Konami, Capcom, Nintendo, Microsoft Game Studios, Ubisoft, and developers I care less about like Activision, EA, etc. are all putting their best stuff on consoles. When these developers put something on PC, it's usually a port of a console title. As I said before, PC mainly has a stronghold only on MMORPGs, some FPSs, and a boatload of games people couldn't care less about. And even MMORPGs are making their way to consoles. FFXI and Everquest already did. They say WoW is next.

A lot of tech geeks don't want to admit it, but gaming isn't just about building a better mousetrap. It's also about who has the best cheese.

Darren - the X360 can be conneted to a computer monitor and will give you countless resolution settings between 640x480 and 1280x1024.

If you have an HDTV it will render all games at 1280x720 and some at 1920x1080 (interlaced).

"Personally, I could care less what a PC “can” do. I care what a machine DOES do, or put better, what developers create for a machine."
Fine, you'd be amazed what a PC DOES do when limited to 640x480.

"Darren - the X360 can be conneted to a computer monitor and will give you countless resolution settings between 640×480 and 1280×1024."
Learn to read things in context and then come back. Bonus hint: I'm not talking about the 360.

Darren: did you not read what you just posted? "what developers create for a machine" PC loses by incredible amounts when you compare its game library to consoles and handhelds. I'm sorry, but there is no contest there.

I love consoles, because I never pop a disc in and find out I need a new graphics card. For a while, I was thrilled because I wouldn't encounter glitches on the console that crashed the system - but with PC ports like Call of Duty, that's no longer the case.

As for the X360 problems, I seem to recall the PS2 had more than it's share of initial problems in Japan, and after it was released in the states, the reviewers had specific skus to avoid.

I think what no one has taken advantage of is this wirelessness. The X360 requires a separate adapter for wifi - terrible. And without wires, it should become more normal to have weird accessories. You don't need to fiddle with wires, dig stuff out, now you can just pull your wireless bluetooth joystick out for flying games, etc. Or mouse and keyboard, why not? I think the Revolution will end up a dud, because Sony and MS can always just release a revolution-style peripheral. Once you have wireless connections, why not?

"PC loses by incredible amounts when you compare its game library to consoles and handhelds."
In your not so humble opinion. First of all, claiming that EA is sending their best stuff to consoles is like claiming McDonalds send their best burgers to Texas. Best or not, they're still crap. Second, EA themselves have a policy of platform neutrality and release a lot of stuff on the PC. Third, show me something like Battlefield2 on any console. Show me an RTS as good as Dawn of War on a console. Show me a 4X game as good as Civ4 on a console. Then there's the mod scene, where stuff like Rag Doll Kung-Fu comes from. Most of the developers I care about still produce games for the PC. And because I'm the centre of the universe, my view is more important than yours :P

Sure, consoles get more games. Most of those games are complete shite, however, leaving us back where we started.

In any case, you're taking my original comment out of context. Can a PC that was available around the time of the PS2's launch play a game like God of War? Well, I reckon it wouldn't be far off, seeing as God of War's graphics really aren't all that hot. What people don't realise is that the PS2's graphics really aren't that hot, not even graphical "wonders" like God of War. Drop the resolution of a PC game down to 640x480 (that nobody even bothers to benchmark at any more) and the FPS count shoots through the roof because it's a painfully low resolution.

Yes in my not so humble opinion. Covering video games is my job. If you don't like my not so humble opinion, I can point you to tons of others who would say the same thing.

You want to look at specific games? Alright, compared to PC's 5-6 good games this year, consoles have got Resident Evil 4, God of War, Lumines, Meteos, Nintendogs, Advance Wars DS, Gunstar Super Heroes, Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow, We Love Katamari, Shadow of the Colossus, Guitar Hero, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Psychonauts, Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap, Jade Empire, Perfect Dark Zero, PGR3, Fire Emblem, X-Men Legends 2, Devil May Cry 3, and probably more I'm not thinking of.

Go ahead, try to make a list like that of games for PC that came out this year. You'd be hard-pressed to come close to that even when including PC games that are ports from consoles like GTA and Splinter Cell.

Appx 400 Euro in Sweden.

And of course there are HDTV sets available in Europe, LCD, plasma and projectors. I've been running my old Xbox in HDTV mode for almost two years, connected to a projector.

Did I ever claim consoles didn't have more games than the PC? Did I ever claim consoles didn't have good games? No, I didn't. Firstly, I disputed that XBox 360 games are better than PC games and then you seemed to take issue with my claim that old PCs do quite well when reduced to running at the same resolution as the PS2. Then you decided to make it about game lists rather than capabilities.

you: "Sure, consoles get more games. Most of those games are complete shite, however, leaving us back where we started."

The only reason you would make that argument is if you are trying to say that PC has better games. And YOU said "show me a game" so of course I'm going to show you games. I'm sorry for doing exactly what you said to do.

We're talking games here, a very subjective term. For example, Nintendogs is not my cup of tea, whereas Dawn of War is. Claiming that consoles have better games than PCs is complete and utter rubbish where you can't show me a console-only FPS that's better than what's available on the PC, nor can you do the same for 4X and RTS games, especially when you take the joypad vs. WASD issue into consideration.

One of my favourite games recently has been Tumblebugs... http://www.wildfire.com.au/content/standard.asp... - Previously it was Doom3! Those two games are as far apart as one can imagine. Really there isn't an argument for which machine is better or which game is better.

As a games developer I have to be thankful of that... however consoles are making it harder for small developers and new visionaries to break through.

Games is not a subjective term. Here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=game

What is subjective is if a game is good or not. And believe it or not, Nintendogs not being your "cup of tea" doesn't lower its quality. Dawn of War is not my cup of tea. Where does your argument go now?

Plus, I happen to able to play games with a keyboard and mouse on both my Xbox and PS2. It costs a mere $20 for each system to do so, so even if you prefer those controls you can use them on consoles.

Quake 4 on the PC: Very very good.
Quake 4 on the Xbox360: Shit on a plastic disc.

Civ 4 on the PC: Very very good.
Civ 4 on the Xbox360: Doesn't exist, never will.

Microsoft's Age of Empires 3 on the PC: Very very good.
Microsoft's Age of Empires 3 on Microsoft's Xbox360: Doesn't exist, never will.

World of Warcraft on the PC: Very very good.
World of Warcraft on the Xbox360: Doesn't exist.

Half-Life 2 on the PC: Very very good.
Half-Life 2 on the Xbox360: Doesn't exist (yet), will likely suck.

Call of Duty 2 on the PC: Good, not great.
Call of Duty 2 on the Xbox360: Very very bad.

Who ever said dreamcast and snes are the best consoles ever is clearly and IDIOT. Without a doubt the playstation 1 and arguable 2 were great consoles and my personal favorite the sega gensis. Anyone out here ever have the sega channle! no that was ahead of its time!