A little bit of a dustup about our Amazon talk

March 31, 2006 By

I see Rick Segal picking on Amazon's CTO after reading a bunch of blogs this morning about our Amazon talk (and the ensuing controversy about whether or not we answered questions very well or not). I love how Rick called friends at Amazon and did some homework.

Hey, I want a rematch! Scoble (Microsoft evangelist) vs. Werner (Amazon CTO). Topic? Would blogs be good for Amazon? Think about the draw that'd bring at some conference! :-)

Other good comments on this topic? Loren Heiny, blogger (he started a software house too). Jim Minatel, Wiley employee (book publisher!) and blogger.

Update: I answered the questions Werner raised, and more on a post here.

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  • http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/ werner

    Does that have to be a naked rematch? Rick S. might be afraid I’ll bring a gun…

  • http://www.allthingsdistributed.com werner

    Does that have to be a naked rematch? Rick S. might be afraid I’ll bring a gun…

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Werner: no nakedness, no guns.

    But I might bring PowerPoint. :-)

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Werner: no nakedness, no guns.

    But I might bring PowerPoint. :-)

  • http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/ werner

    Do you know that we have a “no powerpoint” rule at Amazon? You would have an unfair advantage, but I am sure I can find something to make up for that…

    BTW this won’t be a match. I’ll ask the questions, you anwser them, and if I want better answers I’ll ask harder questions until I get the right answer. A sort of who-wants-to-be-a-millionair in reverse.

    Whatever happens I want Halley as a referee…

  • http://www.allthingsdistributed.com werner

    Do you know that we have a “no powerpoint” rule at Amazon? You would have an unfair advantage, but I am sure I can find something to make up for that…

    BTW this won’t be a match. I’ll ask the questions, you anwser them, and if I want better answers I’ll ask harder questions until I get the right answer. A sort of who-wants-to-be-a-millionair in reverse.

    Whatever happens I want Halley as a referee…

  • Withheld

    These views are MINE, and do not represent Amazon.

    Amazon once upon a time had internal blogs for its employees, but the tool to create them hasn’t worked in what appears to be years. It also uses blog-like technology internally for other things (mainly employee ideas, which are rarely, if ever, read or commented on), and is a HEAVY user of wikis internally. (None of that should be terribly confidential or proprietary…)

    Still, I wouldn’t say Amazon doesn’t get blogging. I’d say that Amazon likes to be seen from the outside as a monolithic rock, where you usually address the rock, and not any individual piece of it.

    One exception is the Amazon Web Services team, where you DO find bloggers, but that’s because they’re like you, basically evangelists for the technology.

    So many of the features of the site are human-impenetrable (because they rely on deep statistics usually) that it’s just not useful for a person to blog about them. Further, Amazon cares very, very deeply about the customer…*but* they usually figure out what the customer wants by watching what they do, not what they say, and optimize for the common customer.

    Beyond that, you should realize that Amazon has built a very, very good customer support department whose very streamlined goal in life is to manage the billions of same-as questions that would end up showing up on a blog, and filter the unusual ones, and the things that are actually issues, up through the company (and they do filter up!).

    That all said, it sounds like the CTO was a bum to you, and I’m sorry you got that kind of reception.

    Maybe you could call him out at Gnomedex, or something.

    I’m an Amazon employee, and I blog, but NEVER about the company. Mostly because nobody would care, my job is so deep in the guts and connective tissue of the platform, arcane magic doesn’t begin to describe it.

  • Withheld

    These views are MINE, and do not represent Amazon.

    Amazon once upon a time had internal blogs for its employees, but the tool to create them hasn’t worked in what appears to be years. It also uses blog-like technology internally for other things (mainly employee ideas, which are rarely, if ever, read or commented on), and is a HEAVY user of wikis internally. (None of that should be terribly confidential or proprietary…)

    Still, I wouldn’t say Amazon doesn’t get blogging. I’d say that Amazon likes to be seen from the outside as a monolithic rock, where you usually address the rock, and not any individual piece of it.

    One exception is the Amazon Web Services team, where you DO find bloggers, but that’s because they’re like you, basically evangelists for the technology.

    So many of the features of the site are human-impenetrable (because they rely on deep statistics usually) that it’s just not useful for a person to blog about them. Further, Amazon cares very, very deeply about the customer…*but* they usually figure out what the customer wants by watching what they do, not what they say, and optimize for the common customer.

    Beyond that, you should realize that Amazon has built a very, very good customer support department whose very streamlined goal in life is to manage the billions of same-as questions that would end up showing up on a blog, and filter the unusual ones, and the things that are actually issues, up through the company (and they do filter up!).

    That all said, it sounds like the CTO was a bum to you, and I’m sorry you got that kind of reception.

    Maybe you could call him out at Gnomedex, or something.

    I’m an Amazon employee, and I blog, but NEVER about the company. Mostly because nobody would care, my job is so deep in the guts and connective tissue of the platform, arcane magic doesn’t begin to describe it.

  • http://ricksegal.typepad.com/ Rick Segal

    Werner,

    I was trying to make a joke about Jeff’s gun, I hope it wasn’t taken the wrong way, please don’t make me see Robert naked..

  • http://ricksegal.typepad.com Rick Segal

    Werner,

    I was trying to make a joke about Jeff’s gun, I hope it wasn’t taken the wrong way, please don’t make me see Robert naked..

  • Dmad

    so is sounds like the question werner was essentially asking was how can blogging benefit Amazon’s bottomline over and above what they’ve proven to be successful throughout their history?

  • Dmad

    so is sounds like the question werner was essentially asking was how can blogging benefit Amazon’s bottomline over and above what they’ve proven to be successful throughout their history?

  • Phil

    I was at the talk, and, obviously, I’m speaking for myself and not for Amazon.

    I read this blog and several others regularly, and I was looking forward to your talk. I expected that you and Shel would be able to answer Werner’s questions easily. As he said, he was deliberately stirring the pot by asking tough, relevant questions.

    Your answers to Werner’s questions and to those of other folks in the audience were unconvincing and even defensive. I don’t think that you convinced anyone who didn’t already agree with you.

    You’re promoting a book for crying out loud. You really should be prepared to answer, succinctly and on the spot, anyone who asks you, “Why should I read your book?” “Everyone else is doing it” (loosely paraphrasing) just won’t cut it with a critical audience. You should be able to explain the advantages of blogging over similar interactive media, such as message boards. You really should be ready to address reasonable counterexamples to your thesis (such as Apple). “Mark my words. They’ll regret it,” (again, loosely paraphrasing) doesn’t convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.

    I don’t think Werner was trying to knock you down. He was blunt, but hardly rude. He was asking tough, relevant questions that gave you guys an opportunity to shine. You guys blew it. Hopefully you’ll do a better job with your next tough audience.

  • Phil

    I was at the talk, and, obviously, I’m speaking for myself and not for Amazon.

    I read this blog and several others regularly, and I was looking forward to your talk. I expected that you and Shel would be able to answer Werner’s questions easily. As he said, he was deliberately stirring the pot by asking tough, relevant questions.

    Your answers to Werner’s questions and to those of other folks in the audience were unconvincing and even defensive. I don’t think that you convinced anyone who didn’t already agree with you.

    You’re promoting a book for crying out loud. You really should be prepared to answer, succinctly and on the spot, anyone who asks you, “Why should I read your book?” “Everyone else is doing it” (loosely paraphrasing) just won’t cut it with a critical audience. You should be able to explain the advantages of blogging over similar interactive media, such as message boards. You really should be ready to address reasonable counterexamples to your thesis (such as Apple). “Mark my words. They’ll regret it,” (again, loosely paraphrasing) doesn’t convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.

    I don’t think Werner was trying to knock you down. He was blunt, but hardly rude. He was asking tough, relevant questions that gave you guys an opportunity to shine. You guys blew it. Hopefully you’ll do a better job with your next tough audience.

  • Nobody

    I work at Amazon.

    Lets think for a second about why you went to Amazon. You’ve got a book to pitch. The book has a thesis – that blogging helps businesses connect to customers and is a valuable activity. You came to elaborate on that message. Forgive us for being inquisitive and not immediately drinking the koolaid. Do you imagine us to be backward in some way? Unenlightened? You think we don’t know anything about the internet?

    Amazon is a numbers driven company filled with ultra smart people. Supergeeks. Its a meritocracy. That means we don’t believe anything without hard data to back it up. Where’s the data? A bunch of anecdotes?

    Suppose Amazon starts blogging en masse. What will we get? More sales? How much? 10%? 100%? Or is it loyalty? How much loyalty? What is the increase in liklihood that the customer’s next purchase will be from Amazon? Who should blog? Everyone? Some percentage? How much? Do you know? Have you set out to measure any of this? Or are you going on your gut?

    Amazon opens new channels of communication with customers all the time. They are rigorously monitored for impact on customer experience and sales. If you want to convince an amazonian of anything – bring facts, studies, numbers, proof. If you don’t have them, expect to get what you got.

    While you are at it, you could explain why customers want to talk to us more than our authors, sellers, and each other.

    And don’t take it personally, this is the culture. We do the same to each other all the time. The one who has done the work and has the data wins. Geeks like that. Amazon is a company of geeks among geeks. Telling us we don’t “get it” is rude, childish, and solidifies our innate suspicion that you are a poser selling snake oil.

    Dmad has it right. Where’s the data?

  • Nobody

    I work at Amazon.

    Lets think for a second about why you went to Amazon. You’ve got a book to pitch. The book has a thesis – that blogging helps businesses connect to customers and is a valuable activity. You came to elaborate on that message. Forgive us for being inquisitive and not immediately drinking the koolaid. Do you imagine us to be backward in some way? Unenlightened? You think we don’t know anything about the internet?

    Amazon is a numbers driven company filled with ultra smart people. Supergeeks. Its a meritocracy. That means we don’t believe anything without hard data to back it up. Where’s the data? A bunch of anecdotes?

    Suppose Amazon starts blogging en masse. What will we get? More sales? How much? 10%? 100%? Or is it loyalty? How much loyalty? What is the increase in liklihood that the customer’s next purchase will be from Amazon? Who should blog? Everyone? Some percentage? How much? Do you know? Have you set out to measure any of this? Or are you going on your gut?

    Amazon opens new channels of communication with customers all the time. They are rigorously monitored for impact on customer experience and sales. If you want to convince an amazonian of anything – bring facts, studies, numbers, proof. If you don’t have them, expect to get what you got.

    While you are at it, you could explain why customers want to talk to us more than our authors, sellers, and each other.

    And don’t take it personally, this is the culture. We do the same to each other all the time. The one who has done the work and has the data wins. Geeks like that. Amazon is a company of geeks among geeks. Telling us we don’t “get it” is rude, childish, and solidifies our innate suspicion that you are a poser selling snake oil.

    Dmad has it right. Where’s the data?

  • http://www.misterorange.com/ Evan Erwin

    Hey, give Shel some of that action too :)

    At least let him be moderator…or something. ;]

  • http://www.misterorange.com Evan Erwin

    Hey, give Shel some of that action too :)

    At least let him be moderator…or something. ;]

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  • anon

    Robert, I know you think you are the center of the blogging universe ever since you switched from radio.weblogs to your current hosting provider (whose software you weren’t even a part of in developing), but here’s some reasons you have no business telling amazon about blogging.

    1- Amazon instituted “blogging” a long time ago, in the form of customer comments about products. In it, customers can review products they have purchased or own.
    2- Not only that, but future readers can rate the comments. “19 of 22 people found this comment useful.”
    3- Amazon lets customers upload their own pictures of the product in action. I notice you don’t even have pictures in your blog posts, let alone the comment sections.

    Now, so far as your argument that blogging is good for companies because it offers a human voice. That’s not always true. Not all company employees are suitable spokespeople. How would it reflect on Microsoft if a brilliant employee who also happens to be a member of the KKK started sharing his opinions on racism in between posts shilling the superiority of Windows Vista? Probably a fellow who would get terminated or told to shut up pretty quick.

    Microsoft really doesn’t have much to lose in the PR department – that’s why it doesn’t really mind employee blogs. Sure, there’s the dumbass here and there, but when the company is widely regarded as a convicted monopolist felon dragging its feet on implementing settlement requirements in the US and EU, a few off-color jokes from employees aren’t going to turn away too many customers, especially if they’re captive already. It’s a “human face” to drown out the evil machinery.

    So what benefit can a great company like Amazon gain that is more ingenious than how it has already implemented blogging technology and customer voices behind it?

  • anon

    Robert, I know you think you are the center of the blogging universe ever since you switched from radio.weblogs to your current hosting provider (whose software you weren’t even a part of in developing), but here’s some reasons you have no business telling amazon about blogging.

    1- Amazon instituted “blogging” a long time ago, in the form of customer comments about products. In it, customers can review products they have purchased or own.
    2- Not only that, but future readers can rate the comments. “19 of 22 people found this comment useful.”
    3- Amazon lets customers upload their own pictures of the product in action. I notice you don’t even have pictures in your blog posts, let alone the comment sections.

    Now, so far as your argument that blogging is good for companies because it offers a human voice. That’s not always true. Not all company employees are suitable spokespeople. How would it reflect on Microsoft if a brilliant employee who also happens to be a member of the KKK started sharing his opinions on racism in between posts shilling the superiority of Windows Vista? Probably a fellow who would get terminated or told to shut up pretty quick.

    Microsoft really doesn’t have much to lose in the PR department – that’s why it doesn’t really mind employee blogs. Sure, there’s the dumbass here and there, but when the company is widely regarded as a convicted monopolist felon dragging its feet on implementing settlement requirements in the US and EU, a few off-color jokes from employees aren’t going to turn away too many customers, especially if they’re captive already. It’s a “human face” to drown out the evil machinery.

    So what benefit can a great company like Amazon gain that is more ingenious than how it has already implemented blogging technology and customer voices behind it?

  • http://blogs.msdn.com/sriram Sriram Krishnan

    I dont think this is about Amazon – this is about blogging.

    I don’t know about the actual events of the day but if Werner wants to know hard data on the power of blogging, that’s a proper question to ask.

    It *is* difficult to ‘get’ blogging if you’ve not been in the blogosphere and there are so many fads these days that you can’t blame someone new for being. When I try and evangelize blogging internally at MSFT, a lot of people do ask ‘Show me the numbers’

    Scoble – being a MSFT FTE, you do realize that this is probably mild when compared to one of our exec reviews :-)

  • http://blogs.msdn.com/sriram Sriram Krishnan

    I dont think this is about Amazon – this is about blogging.

    I don’t know about the actual events of the day but if Werner wants to know hard data on the power of blogging, that’s a proper question to ask.

    It *is* difficult to ‘get’ blogging if you’ve not been in the blogosphere and there are so many fads these days that you can’t blame someone new for being. When I try and evangelize blogging internally at MSFT, a lot of people do ask ‘Show me the numbers’

    Scoble – being a MSFT FTE, you do realize that this is probably mild when compared to one of our exec reviews :-)

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Sriram: yup, I realize that. I just was prepared for a book reading, and not an exec review! Next time I’ll be a little more direct.

    As to the Amazonians here, see my next post. Coming soon.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Sriram: yup, I realize that. I just was prepared for a book reading, and not an exec review! Next time I’ll be a little more direct.

    As to the Amazonians here, see my next post. Coming soon.

  • http://www.gapingvoid.com/ hugh macleod

    “Amazon is a numbers driven company filled with ultra smart people. Supergeeks. Its a meritocracy.”

    Nobody, if you guys are so smart, why are you working for someone else?

    If you guys are so smart, why are you posting anonymously? What are you scared of?

  • http://www.gapingvoid.com hugh macleod

    “Amazon is a numbers driven company filled with ultra smart people. Supergeeks. Its a meritocracy.”

    Nobody, if you guys are so smart, why are you working for someone else?

    If you guys are so smart, why are you posting anonymously? What are you scared of?

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Hugh: maybe they are scared of getting yelled at by Werner! Heheh.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Hugh: maybe they are scared of getting yelled at by Werner! Heheh.

  • http://www.dahowlett.com dahowlett

    Gotta weigh in here. I’m a hard assed ex accountant who regularly sticks it to Scoble for one thing or another. I’m probably in the ruder category. Sorry – I really mean blunt. (New lesson – thanks Robert/Werner).

    Early in my blogging efforts I took Hugh MacLeod to task about ROI. Here it comes again. Hugh and I will never fully agree on this topic – I am more where Amazon wants to be – but there is one thing we are agreed upon. BLOGGING MAKES MONEY and nobody cares. And it’s ROi (little ‘i’) It is making money for me both directly and indirectly, it is getting me to a global audience – which is weird as I am UK/EU specific – and it is helping people solve problems. What more does Amazon want? If it wants facts/figures, I’ll give some publicly, others privately.

    Robert – you may not have answered the question and may have got flustered. Here’s a good ol’ press tip. If you don’t know the answer or are feeling cornered, simply say: ‘I’ll get back to you on that one.’

  • http://www.accmanpro.com Dennis Howlett

    Gotta weigh in here. I’m a hard assed ex accountant who regularly sticks it to Scoble for one thing or another. I’m probably in the ruder category. Sorry – I really mean blunt. (New lesson – thanks Robert/Werner).

    Early in my blogging efforts I took Hugh MacLeod to task about ROI. Here it comes again. Hugh and I will never fully agree on this topic – I am more where Amazon wants to be – but there is one thing we are agreed upon. BLOGGING MAKES MONEY and nobody cares. And it’s ROi (little ‘i’) It is making money for me both directly and indirectly, it is getting me to a global audience – which is weird as I am UK/EU specific – and it is helping people solve problems. What more does Amazon want? If it wants facts/figures, I’ll give some publicly, others privately.

    Robert – you may not have answered the question and may have got flustered. Here’s a good ol’ press tip. If you don’t know the answer or are feeling cornered, simply say: ‘I’ll get back to you on that one.’

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Dennis: good advice. But we gave it a college try, just ended up swinging in air. That’s OK. Blogging gives us a second, third, fourth, and fifth chance to make our point. It also gives Werner infinite opportunities to tear our ideas apart and see if they are any good.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Dennis: good advice. But we gave it a college try, just ended up swinging in air. That’s OK. Blogging gives us a second, third, fourth, and fifth chance to make our point. It also gives Werner infinite opportunities to tear our ideas apart and see if they are any good.

  • http://mikeabundo.com/ Mike Abundo

    Lots of anonymous Amazonians here. I get anonymous Level-Uppers, too.

    All of them are doing their employers a disservice.

  • http://mikeabundo.com/ Mike Abundo

    Lots of anonymous Amazonians here. I get anonymous Level-Uppers, too.

    All of them are doing their employers a disservice.

  • http://www.syndicateconference.com/ Eric Norlin

    Scoble/Werner -

    I’ve already got Robert speaking at the upcoming Syndicate conference, but I will FIND ROOM on the stage if you guys really wanna do a public death-cage match.

    whadya say?
    ejn
    conference chair, Syndicate conference

  • http://www.syndicateconference.com Eric Norlin

    Scoble/Werner -

    I’ve already got Robert speaking at the upcoming Syndicate conference, but I will FIND ROOM on the stage if you guys really wanna do a public death-cage match.

    whadya say?
    ejn
    conference chair, Syndicate conference

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Eric, I’m game. That’d be fun! I’ll be there and at Gnomedex.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

    Eric, I’m game. That’d be fun! I’ll be there and at Gnomedex.

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  • Nobody

    Why are the posts at mini-microsoft all anonymous?

    What are those people afraid of? And if MS people are good, why do they work in the big house?

    Sorry, you are not persuasive.

  • Nobody

    Why are the posts at mini-microsoft all anonymous?

    What are those people afraid of? And if MS people are good, why do they work in the big house?

    Sorry, you are not persuasive.

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  • http://www.EuroRoss.blogspot.com/ Ross

    Comment 8 hits it right on the money. Ideas expressed without supporting data are just ideas, not facts. I wan’t there and maybe Werner was rude and/or harrasing, but the bottom line is that you need to be able to stand up to such questions if you hope to convince people of your thesis. To say that you weren’t expecting this type of pointed questioning is mute since I (and most people) would expect you to be able to present and back up what you wrote in the book at any given time, not just when given the heads up beforehand, and especially when asked to present about the book!

    To be honest this lack of presentation preparation is disconcerting. The presentation Scoble and Shel gave at Les Blogs 2.0 was disappointing to say the least and I for one would really like to hear you present/debate your thoughts in public as effectively as you presented them in the book and as you do impressively on a regular basis on your blogs.

    Take a look at how effective you and Shel are communicating your positions on this discussion in the blogosphere, would this situation have even arisen if you had both been prepared and been able to be half as effective in responding to Werner on the day of the presentation?

    My 1.5 cents.

  • http://www.EuroRoss.blogspot.com Ross

    Comment 8 hits it right on the money. Ideas expressed without supporting data are just ideas, not facts. I wan’t there and maybe Werner was rude and/or harrasing, but the bottom line is that you need to be able to stand up to such questions if you hope to convince people of your thesis. To say that you weren’t expecting this type of pointed questioning is mute since I (and most people) would expect you to be able to present and back up what you wrote in the book at any given time, not just when given the heads up beforehand, and especially when asked to present about the book!

    To be honest this lack of presentation preparation is disconcerting. The presentation Scoble and Shel gave at Les Blogs 2.0 was disappointing to say the least and I for one would really like to hear you present/debate your thoughts in public as effectively as you presented them in the book and as you do impressively on a regular basis on your blogs.

    Take a look at how effective you and Shel are communicating your positions on this discussion in the blogosphere, would this situation have even arisen if you had both been prepared and been able to be half as effective in responding to Werner on the day of the presentation?

    My 1.5 cents.

  • dmad

    In summary,it seems that all Scoble and Shel have is anectodatal data they used to support their thesis. Did they ever look at any contrary data? For example, why doesn’t it seem like Lutz’s blog is having ANY impact on GM’s bottom line? Do we know if those blogging at Boeing caused airline companies to by Boeing planes over Airbus? If so, where’s the data?

    Scoble, you want to carry the blogging banner to enterprises you need to have hard data, not anecdotal feel good stories from random small business. From what about MS, if this had been an internal exec review on the value of blogging for MS, you would have been dismissed from the meeting before getting past slide 1. Sure, maybe blogging has value for the mom and pop business, but for Fortune 500 companies, you really need better data.

  • dmad

    In summary,it seems that all Scoble and Shel have is anectodatal data they used to support their thesis. Did they ever look at any contrary data? For example, why doesn’t it seem like Lutz’s blog is having ANY impact on GM’s bottom line? Do we know if those blogging at Boeing caused airline companies to by Boeing planes over Airbus? If so, where’s the data?

    Scoble, you want to carry the blogging banner to enterprises you need to have hard data, not anecdotal feel good stories from random small business. From what about MS, if this had been an internal exec review on the value of blogging for MS, you would have been dismissed from the meeting before getting past slide 1. Sure, maybe blogging has value for the mom and pop business, but for Fortune 500 companies, you really need better data.

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