Um, Robert, we do invite security experts to campus

April 8, 2006 By

Robert Cringley says that Microsoft doesn't invite security experts to campus to learn from them.

This is patently NOT true.

We regularly hold "BlueHat" conferences on campus. Why are these called "BlueHat?" Because of the blue color on employee badges. I attended part of the last one (it was held about a month ago). This is for Microsoft employees. On stage? Security experts from around the world.

In fact, the BlueHat team has a blog where they list the security experts and topics that were invited onto campus to speak.

And, even separate of that, we have security experts on campus helping us out all the time. The IE team even hired a 16-year-old who found a few exploits and he worked the summer helping make Windows Vista more secure. (He told me that IE7 is far more secure than other browsers he's tried to hack into).

Other reactions to Cringley's article? Well, for one, internally at Microsoft we know it takes about two months to "fill the channel" with a new OS — we were aiming to have Vista ready for August and when it became apparent we wouldn't make that date the planners knew they couldn't make Christmas. That wasn't a decision made lightly, but I've been talking to people internally and it was apparent that the quality of Vista just wasn't ready for an August release. I'm glad that our executives stand up for quality, even while they are leaving billions of dollars on the table. The pressure to ship is extreme. Believe me, everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it (not to mention our stock price and bonuses and other things). That pressure needs to be countered. In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.

Two, we need to treat all of our OEMs fairly and can't favor one over the other. Dell is the wrong one to pick on here. They became very profitable BECAUSE they made their supply chain hyper efficient. They can turn around machines in days, while other companies need much longer turnaround times to get their machines from manufacturing into customers' hands.

Frank Boosman has a different argument with Cringley. He's right. Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. Just one visit to our testing labs shows you why.

Filed Under: 1

james

Cringely makes me cringe on his prognogs.

I do like his writing on his home tech stuff, like when he rigged up a wireless broadband relay a couple of miles long to his broadband-less house in Santa Rosa.
james

Cringely makes me cringe on his prognogs.

I do like his writing on his home tech stuff, like when he rigged up a wireless broadband relay a couple of miles long to his broadband-less house in Santa Rosa.
http://rickcooper.typepad.com/thepdapro/2006/04/more_on_global_.html Rick Cooper, The PDA Pro

It will be interesting to see what effect Vista will have on the growth of global conversations and the resulting online pollution. This trend will also likely increase security risks as sites proliferate and more people expose sensitive information to hackers and identity thieves.
http://rickcooper.typepad.com/thepdapro/2006/04/more_on_global_.html Rick Cooper, The PDA Pro

It will be interesting to see what effect Vista will have on the growth of global conversations and the resulting online pollution. This trend will also likely increase security risks as sites proliferate and more people expose sensitive information to hackers and identity thieves.
J. Random Poster

“Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. ”

Of this, I have no doubt whatsoever. Shpping windows is certainly a Herculean task (Augean stables, to be precise).
J. Random Poster

“Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. ”

Of this, I have no doubt whatsoever. Shpping windows is certainly a Herculean task (Augean stables, to be precise).
J. Random Poster

” everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it”

Sucks to be you, dude.
J. Random Poster

” everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it”

Sucks to be you, dude.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

J. Random: no, actually, it doesn’t.

I wouldn’t trade our business model with Apple’s, no matter how cool Apple seems. And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.

Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though. Just watch the Media Center video I put up last night. I even brought up Steve Jobs’ jab at the complexity of our remote control.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

J. Random: no, actually, it doesn’t.

I wouldn’t trade our business model with Apple’s, no matter how cool Apple seems. And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.

Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though. Just watch the Media Center video I put up last night. I even brought up Steve Jobs’ jab at the complexity of our remote control.
John

I took Cringely to be implying that Microsoft is not acting on the security experts advice, as opposed to Microsoft is not talking to them. For example, if there was consensus that ActiveX could never be secure enough would Microsoft make a fundamental change to fix it or remove it.
John

I took Cringely to be implying that Microsoft is not acting on the security experts advice, as opposed to Microsoft is not talking to them. For example, if there was consensus that ActiveX could never be secure enough would Microsoft make a fundamental change to fix it or remove it.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

John: there are fundamental changes to how Windows Vista works in DIRECT response to the security community. And that’s right from their mouths, not from ours.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

John: there are fundamental changes to how Windows Vista works in DIRECT response to the security community. And that’s right from their mouths, not from ours.
http://randyh.wordpress.com/ randyh

What Cringely doesn’t understand is that when we fix security issues we don’t have the luxury of breaking everybody’s existing PC and apps. You have to support the users. We could lock down Windows even more dramatically than we have, but in doing so we’ll break a ton of apps and make end users extremely frustrated.

It is easy to be a company that doesn’t support backwards compatability- most of the companies in our industry don’t view backwards compatability as a huge priority. Microsoft is committed to making sure that your apps keep working and that your PC still works (mostly) in the way that you’re used to.
http://randyh.wordpress.com/ randyh

What Cringely doesn’t understand is that when we fix security issues we don’t have the luxury of breaking everybody’s existing PC and apps. You have to support the users. We could lock down Windows even more dramatically than we have, but in doing so we’ll break a ton of apps and make end users extremely frustrated.

It is easy to be a company that doesn’t support backwards compatability- most of the companies in our industry don’t view backwards compatability as a huge priority. Microsoft is committed to making sure that your apps keep working and that your PC still works (mostly) in the way that you’re used to.
http://alfredo.octavio.net/ Alfredo Octavio

randyh has given the reason Vista won’t be secure. It’s a trade off. What I will never understand is why Microsoft doesn’t take the easy way out and fork the damn thing. If you want backward compatibility you get Vista, if you don’t need it you get Vista SE (for SEcure). A lot of people no longer want Windows to work in the way they are used to. As a matter of fact they hate it.
http://alfredo.octavio.net/ Alfredo Octavio

randyh has given the reason Vista won’t be secure. It’s a trade off. What I will never understand is why Microsoft doesn’t take the easy way out and fork the damn thing. If you want backward compatibility you get Vista, if you don’t need it you get Vista SE (for SEcure). A lot of people no longer want Windows to work in the way they are used to. As a matter of fact they hate it.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

Alfredo: actually we are breaking a lot of apps in Vista. Howso? By forcing the default user to NOT be administrator. I know of lots of apps that were designed to only run in Admin mode.

That’s a HUGE change architecturally and culturally and one that many developers still haven’t wrapped their head around yet.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

Alfredo: actually we are breaking a lot of apps in Vista. Howso? By forcing the default user to NOT be administrator. I know of lots of apps that were designed to only run in Admin mode.

That’s a HUGE change architecturally and culturally and one that many developers still haven’t wrapped their head around yet.
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Dmad

@5 and yet the average home user looks at vista and looks at Office 2007, scratches his head and says “of the two, why do I need Vista?” And now with Mac’s ability to run XP gotta believe that will raise even more questions on the value prop for Vista, particulary given what the average home user does with their PC.

Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.
Dmad

@5 and yet the average home user looks at vista and looks at Office 2007, scratches his head and says “of the two, why do I need Vista?” And now with Mac’s ability to run XP gotta believe that will raise even more questions on the value prop for Vista, particulary given what the average home user does with their PC.

Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.
http://blogs.linux.ie/stuff Mark

Okay, so Win95 to Win98 to WinME (Ugh!) to WinXP…to WinVista.
So at this rate of development you’re on track to ship Vista’s successor in 2017?

The most recent delay is the least of Microsoft’s problems, it’s the years of delays before this one which makes a person question if the company is capable of shipping a key piece of computing infrastructure in a timely fashion anymore.
http://blogs.linux.ie/stuff Mark

Okay, so Win95 to Win98 to WinME (Ugh!) to WinXP…to WinVista.
So at this rate of development you’re on track to ship Vista’s successor in 2017?

The most recent delay is the least of Microsoft’s problems, it’s the years of delays before this one which makes a person question if the company is capable of shipping a key piece of computing infrastructure in a timely fashion anymore.
doug

In 2 years, everyone will be asking “we waited so long for this?”. In 2 years, people will be wondering where WinFS is, where EFI support is, where monad is. Forgetting the slip in 2 years may be right, but only because other questions will be in people’s minds about the value of the product.
doug

In 2 years, everyone will be asking “we waited so long for this?”. In 2 years, people will be wondering where WinFS is, where EFI support is, where monad is. Forgetting the slip in 2 years may be right, but only because other questions will be in people’s minds about the value of the product.
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Scott Frazer

The real problem Microsoft has with security goes back to a few really bad choices when this whole internet thing started to go nova. ActiveX, scripting of absolutely everything, the interconnectedness of all things Windows. These were all great things from a virtuous programmer’s point of view, but they were absolute heaven for the black hats.

Does anyone else remember when Viruses used to only infect executable files? As tech support folks, we were able to tell people (completely honestly) that you could never get a virus from opening a document. That was before Microsoft created VBA. And created it in such a way as to allow a document to infect the master template of the machine it was on. Why would they do this? Because it enabled white hat programmers to do some cool things. But it was still Microsoft’s fault.

And their reaction was horrible! Alerting users that a document has a script associated with it? What good is that supposed to do, exactly? Do we expect every end-user to debug evry script that shows up within a document? The correct response was to disable the calls that allowed these pieces of malware to propgate, but that would’ve broken functionality, so it was never done.

So now we had to tell people to be careful opening documents. But don’t worry, you could never get a virus by just looking at an image. there’s nothing that really “runs” when you look at a jpg on a website. Oh. Whoops.

Vista will be more secure than XP. XP was more secure than 2000, 2000 was more secure than 98, etc. But I’ll be really surprised (and pleasantly so) if Microsoft gets security “right” in Vista. Too much baggage.
Scott Frazer

The real problem Microsoft has with security goes back to a few really bad choices when this whole internet thing started to go nova. ActiveX, scripting of absolutely everything, the interconnectedness of all things Windows. These were all great things from a virtuous programmer’s point of view, but they were absolute heaven for the black hats.

Does anyone else remember when Viruses used to only infect executable files? As tech support folks, we were able to tell people (completely honestly) that you could never get a virus from opening a document. That was before Microsoft created VBA. And created it in such a way as to allow a document to infect the master template of the machine it was on. Why would they do this? Because it enabled white hat programmers to do some cool things. But it was still Microsoft’s fault.

And their reaction was horrible! Alerting users that a document has a script associated with it? What good is that supposed to do, exactly? Do we expect every end-user to debug evry script that shows up within a document? The correct response was to disable the calls that allowed these pieces of malware to propgate, but that would’ve broken functionality, so it was never done.

So now we had to tell people to be careful opening documents. But don’t worry, you could never get a virus by just looking at an image. there’s nothing that really “runs” when you look at a jpg on a website. Oh. Whoops.

Vista will be more secure than XP. XP was more secure than 2000, 2000 was more secure than 98, etc. But I’ll be really surprised (and pleasantly so) if Microsoft gets security “right” in Vista. Too much baggage.
J. Random Poster

“Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though.”

Nope. It’s looking like yet another exercise in playing catch-up to Apple.

IF you actually manage to ship SP4 near the beginning of next year, Leopard will in all likelihood be out at just about the same time. So, as you’re almost catching up to Jaguar in the graphics area, Apple will be selling a product that’s two whole development cycles beyond that.

Since your major releases take six years now, you guys are in the same spot IBM was in, back around 1985 or so. You’re the legacy platform. It will take as much as ten years for the bulk of your customers to move on, but move on they will.

You’re just too overstaffed to cope, and you have too many empire builders to deal with the overstaffing in anything less than a major bloodletting, with morale crashing even lower than what I see on mini-microsoft’s blog.

MS got one or two decent products out the door once upon a time, but those days are long gone. Now, you just lurch from one debacle to the next, looking for a new enemy every couple of years (google! Adobe! Apple! Somebody!) instead of looking for new customer needs and filling them.

MS, as an organization, is brain-dead. It will take a long time for the muscles to stop twitching, but you’re history. Take the money and run.
J. Random Poster

“Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though.”

Nope. It’s looking like yet another exercise in playing catch-up to Apple.

IF you actually manage to ship SP4 near the beginning of next year, Leopard will in all likelihood be out at just about the same time. So, as you’re almost catching up to Jaguar in the graphics area, Apple will be selling a product that’s two whole development cycles beyond that.

Since your major releases take six years now, you guys are in the same spot IBM was in, back around 1985 or so. You’re the legacy platform. It will take as much as ten years for the bulk of your customers to move on, but move on they will.

You’re just too overstaffed to cope, and you have too many empire builders to deal with the overstaffing in anything less than a major bloodletting, with morale crashing even lower than what I see on mini-microsoft’s blog.

MS got one or two decent products out the door once upon a time, but those days are long gone. Now, you just lurch from one debacle to the next, looking for a new enemy every couple of years (google! Adobe! Apple! Somebody!) instead of looking for new customer needs and filling them.

MS, as an organization, is brain-dead. It will take a long time for the muscles to stop twitching, but you’re history. Take the money and run.
http://www.greghughes.net/rant Greg Hughes

I’d like to see Microsoft invite security people from other places to Redmond so the non-Microsofties can learn from MS (yes, I am serious). Something of a security professional camp or what have you. Not a conference, more like a pow-wow, learn and share. That would be a welcome periodic event.
http://www.greghughes.net/rant Greg Hughes

I’d like to see Microsoft invite security people from other places to Redmond so the non-Microsofties can learn from MS (yes, I am serious). Something of a security professional camp or what have you. Not a conference, more like a pow-wow, learn and share. That would be a welcome periodic event.
winston

Ah yes, Windows security. Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/cover.asp?articleid=423&zoneid=7

Its supposed to protect you from predators spying on your computer habits, but a bill Microsoft Corp. helped write for Oklahoma will open your personal information to warrantless searches, according to a computer privacy expert and a state representative.
…
That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it. Additionally, that phrase fraudulent or other illegal activities means they can:
Let the local district attorney know that you wrote a hot check last month.
Let the attorney general know that you play online poker.
Let the tax commission know you bought cartons of cigarettes and didnt pay the state tax on them. Read anything on your hard drive, such as your name, home address, personal identification code, passwords, Social Security number etc., etc., etc.
————
So this is what the experts are telling you to do? Somehow I doubt that.
winston

Ah yes, Windows security. Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/cover.asp?articleid=423&zoneid=7

Its supposed to protect you from predators spying on your computer habits, but a bill Microsoft Corp. helped write for Oklahoma will open your personal information to warrantless searches, according to a computer privacy expert and a state representative.
…
That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it. Additionally, that phrase fraudulent or other illegal activities means they can:
Let the local district attorney know that you wrote a hot check last month.
Let the attorney general know that you play online poker.
Let the tax commission know you bought cartons of cigarettes and didnt pay the state tax on them. Read anything on your hard drive, such as your name, home address, personal identification code, passwords, Social Security number etc., etc., etc.
————
So this is what the experts are telling you to do? Somehow I doubt that.
http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

Robert,

If MS hadn’t confused “Admin user” with “root” and allowed for better granularity in things, they wouldn’t have had a lot of the troubles they do.

I’ve no pity at all for Windows’ troubles here, because the correct way to do things was around long BEFORE windows, and you guys chose to ignore it. Suck it up princess.
http://www.bynkii.com/ John C. Welch

Robert,

If MS hadn’t confused “Admin user” with “root” and allowed for better granularity in things, they wouldn’t have had a lot of the troubles they do.

I’ve no pity at all for Windows’ troubles here, because the correct way to do things was around long BEFORE windows, and you guys chose to ignore it. Suck it up princess.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.

Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows. Or the handwriting recognition features. Or the media sharing features like what you can do with Xbox 360 (covered in the video again).

But, you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff. It’s not true, but I’m sure there’s a few people who’ll agree with you here.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.

Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows. Or the handwriting recognition features. Or the media sharing features like what you can do with Xbox 360 (covered in the video again).

But, you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff. It’s not true, but I’m sure there’s a few people who’ll agree with you here.
Dmad

@21 Er.. um.. and yet you appear to be hooked on the Sonos.

Speech recognition. Handwriting recognition? Puh, leeze. More computer science projects that MS hopes someone will buy. Answers to questions no one is asking. Everything you list here does NOT appeal to the average PC user. And it was those people that drove a lot of the demand and buzz for Win95. People lined up for Win95 because it was quite the change from Windows 3.1 and Windows For Winos (WFW). Vista is not the same type of change, at least from the average consumer’s perspective. Sure, people that might live all day in front of their PC’s MAY like it, but the masses are not clamoring for like they were Win95. Ballmer is going to wake up frustrated from his wet dream.
Dmad

@21 Er.. um.. and yet you appear to be hooked on the Sonos.

Speech recognition. Handwriting recognition? Puh, leeze. More computer science projects that MS hopes someone will buy. Answers to questions no one is asking. Everything you list here does NOT appeal to the average PC user. And it was those people that drove a lot of the demand and buzz for Win95. People lined up for Win95 because it was quite the change from Windows 3.1 and Windows For Winos (WFW). Vista is not the same type of change, at least from the average consumer’s perspective. Sure, people that might live all day in front of their PC’s MAY like it, but the masses are not clamoring for like they were Win95. Ballmer is going to wake up frustrated from his wet dream.
J. Random Poster

” You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. ”

If you want someone to watch your video, try posting it in an open format. It doesn’t play in VLC, and Flip4Mac doesn’t want to open it either.

“Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows.”

Apple’s speech recognition works quite well. If I want a dictation product, then I’d use Dragon Naturally Speaking or IBM ViaVoice.

Speaking of speech recognition, are you sure you want to bring that up? I mean, after monkey-boy went berzerk over an eminent speech researcher leaving the Evil Empire for Google and all?

“Or the handwriting recognition features”

Really? Does it work better than this? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/inkwell/ Show me.

” you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff.”

I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “cool stuff” when describing how their products put yours to shame.

Dude, that’s why you’re history. Sure, Apple’s stuff is cool, but you make a grievous mistake if you think it’s only about “cool”. “Cool” is a side effect of it being GOOD. The Mac is *reliable*. It’s *easy to use*. It’s well thought-out. It’s highly consistent. That’s a whole lot more important than cool will ever be.

Jobs said that you have no taste, but he really missed the heart of the matter. The real problem is that you have no DEPTH. Taste is a part of that, but it’s that lack of depth that makes you consitently implement a feature just to be able to check off a box on a brochure, but not to do it well, or seriously consider how to make it work with the system as a whole. As a friend of mine (now at Google, as it happens) once put it, your products asymptotically approach usefulness, but never actually converge upon it.

Now, I know that you have people in the Empire who CAN do this; I’ve met several of them, but they are thwarted by the organization. MS is run by a marketing dweeb who knows how to be a cuthroat, but has no clue at all how to run a creative effort. I mean, the clown actually declared that IBM is your new enemy a couple of weeks back. HELLO! It’s 2006! IBM is in the SERVICES business, and if you think you’re going to beat them with a hoard of MSCEs, you’ve got another think coming.
J. Random Poster

” You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. ”

If you want someone to watch your video, try posting it in an open format. It doesn’t play in VLC, and Flip4Mac doesn’t want to open it either.

“Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows.”

Apple’s speech recognition works quite well. If I want a dictation product, then I’d use Dragon Naturally Speaking or IBM ViaVoice.

Speaking of speech recognition, are you sure you want to bring that up? I mean, after monkey-boy went berzerk over an eminent speech researcher leaving the Evil Empire for Google and all?

“Or the handwriting recognition features”

Really? Does it work better than this? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/inkwell/ Show me.

” you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff.”

I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “cool stuff” when describing how their products put yours to shame.

Dude, that’s why you’re history. Sure, Apple’s stuff is cool, but you make a grievous mistake if you think it’s only about “cool”. “Cool” is a side effect of it being GOOD. The Mac is *reliable*. It’s *easy to use*. It’s well thought-out. It’s highly consistent. That’s a whole lot more important than cool will ever be.

Jobs said that you have no taste, but he really missed the heart of the matter. The real problem is that you have no DEPTH. Taste is a part of that, but it’s that lack of depth that makes you consitently implement a feature just to be able to check off a box on a brochure, but not to do it well, or seriously consider how to make it work with the system as a whole. As a friend of mine (now at Google, as it happens) once put it, your products asymptotically approach usefulness, but never actually converge upon it.

Now, I know that you have people in the Empire who CAN do this; I’ve met several of them, but they are thwarted by the organization. MS is run by a marketing dweeb who knows how to be a cuthroat, but has no clue at all how to run a creative effort. I mean, the clown actually declared that IBM is your new enemy a couple of weeks back. HELLO! It’s 2006! IBM is in the SERVICES business, and if you think you’re going to beat them with a hoard of MSCEs, you’ve got another think coming.
http://rickmahn.wordpress.com/ Rick

Robert said:

“In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.”

Well, I don’t know about people forgetting that it slipped, but they will end up not caring about the tardiness, simply because of the quality of the product. The quality I’ve seen so far is impressive.
http://rickmahn.wordpress.com/ Rick

Robert said:

“In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.”

Well, I don’t know about people forgetting that it slipped, but they will end up not caring about the tardiness, simply because of the quality of the product. The quality I’ve seen so far is impressive.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

J. Random: I went PC shopping today. I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. I didn’t find one with tuners built in. I didn’t find one that could display its video on an Xbox or any other game console for that matter.

Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.

Oh, one other reason? You can get an HP with decent specs for about $1,200. The Apple is about $2,000 for one that has better specs (the other ones aren’t as good as the $1,200 HP laptop).

The Mac is very tempting, but not for $800 more.
http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ scobleizer

J. Random: I went PC shopping today. I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. I didn’t find one with tuners built in. I didn’t find one that could display its video on an Xbox or any other game console for that matter.

Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.

Oh, one other reason? You can get an HP with decent specs for about $1,200. The Apple is about $2,000 for one that has better specs (the other ones aren’t as good as the $1,200 HP laptop).

The Mac is very tempting, but not for $800 more.
larry

Robert, in post #25.

Would you just give it a rest re:

* Mac’s not having handwriting recognition, or not having this oar that media feature.

Your point about this is really getting old as you repeat it everytime someone says something nice about the Mac or says Apple does this or that better than MicroSoft. These have nothing to do with Apple’s small market share, and you know it.

Your last two paragraphs are also just wrong, silly and immature.

You can do better than this Robert. Geez.
larry

Robert, in post #25.

Would you just give it a rest re:

* Mac’s not having handwriting recognition, or not having this oar that media feature.

Your point about this is really getting old as you repeat it everytime someone says something nice about the Mac or says Apple does this or that better than MicroSoft. These have nothing to do with Apple’s small market share, and you know it.

Your last two paragraphs are also just wrong, silly and immature.

You can do better than this Robert. Geez.

Um, Robert, we do invite security experts to campus

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