Microsoft marketing mistakes

Two posts caught my eye this morning:

1) Warner Crocker wrote: "When Success Breeds Contempt: The UMPC Fiasco."
2) Sam Purtill wrote me an email and also posted this in my comments: "Most of the Web developers out there utterly hate Microsoft." and "However, you guys need to win back the developers if you want [Windows Live] to succeed." In an email to me he asked "Does Microsoft have a plan or an initiative to win back web developers? Everyone hates you guys in our industry, and MS doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. You guys come across as cocky, monopolistic, and I've even heard some people call your company a form of communism. Please don't disregard my email, I will definitely regard what you have to say in a reply."

This stuff hurts, but if we don't pay attention shame on us.

One huge advantage? These guys are still talking with us. Someone who is willing to engage usually is looking for some response that tells them that we're listening and looking for a conversation (yeah, there are exceptions, but in life I've found they are actually pretty rare).

This morning I spoke with Shel Israel to the MeshForum in San Francisco and we talked about just these kinds of issues. That corporations now have the ability to listen and learn that they never had before. From a global audience.

I showed off how I use NewsGator to watch what anyone in the world says about "geek" "software" "Linux" "Apple" "Microsoft" among a variety of other topics. You don't need to be a famous blogger to be found anymore.

That's my plan.

Now, what's Microsoft's plan? How about listen to the customers and make better products for them?

Business isn't rocket science. Do that and eventually people who hate your products, think your company sucks, will start to notice.

Oh, and Sam, there's something else we can do to help win your love: help YOU win. My wife taught me this one. If I'm always selfish and don't think of her needs she eventually turns cold and obstinate. Bring her flowers and take out the trash (really small things if you think about it) she notices and warms up.

Is business that simple? Yes, it is.

Sam is just telling us we haven't been paying attention to him. Shame on us if we don't get the message.

Comments

  1. Yes, we devs do hate MS. Reason, let me see. Every time I code something, I need to write code that works in pretty much every browser, then I code up a branch exclusively for IE. Now, with IE7, I have to have 3 branches of code. I have been drumming into my manager’s head for the past 4 months how IE is evil, and the cause of a majority of our dev effort etc. etc. We work on intranet sites and I hope our company drops support for IE based web sites alltogether.

  2. Yes, we devs do hate MS. Reason, let me see. Every time I code something, I need to write code that works in pretty much every browser, then I code up a branch exclusively for IE. Now, with IE7, I have to have 3 branches of code. I have been drumming into my manager’s head for the past 4 months how IE is evil, and the cause of a majority of our dev effort etc. etc. We work on intranet sites and I hope our company drops support for IE based web sites alltogether.

  3. First thing’s first. That’s Warner Crocker in your first link, not James Kendrick.

    Secondly, developers don’t hate you. At least not the developers I know. The developers I know make a living off Microsoft platforms and as far as your developer story, Microsoft is second to none. VS.NET, .NET Framework, soon WinFX/WPF are all excellent technologies.

    It’s the “not quite developer” people that hate you. The dorks that hang out on ZDNet blogs and the comments. I can’t tell you how to win them back. Microsoft is doing some really great things right now and companies like Google are getting praised for utter crap. I think it’s just cool to hate Microsoft right now. Just play your cards right and ride it out and don’t break the bank trying to acquire a bunch of companies to beat Google. Google is going to beat themselves.

  4. First thing’s first. That’s Warner Crocker in your first link, not James Kendrick.

    Secondly, developers don’t hate you. At least not the developers I know. The developers I know make a living off Microsoft platforms and as far as your developer story, Microsoft is second to none. VS.NET, .NET Framework, soon WinFX/WPF are all excellent technologies.

    It’s the “not quite developer” people that hate you. The dorks that hang out on ZDNet blogs and the comments. I can’t tell you how to win them back. Microsoft is doing some really great things right now and companies like Google are getting praised for utter crap. I think it’s just cool to hate Microsoft right now. Just play your cards right and ride it out and don’t break the bank trying to acquire a bunch of companies to beat Google. Google is going to beat themselves.

  5. Josh Einstein wrote

    It’s the “not quite developer” people that hate you. The dorks that hang out on ZDNet blogs and the comments. I can’t tell you how to win them back. Microsoft is doing some really great things right now and companies like Google are getting praised for utter crap. I think it’s just cool to hate Microsoft right now. Just play your cards right and ride it out and don’t break the bank trying to acquire a bunch of companies to beat Google. Google is going to beat themselves.

    Josh,

    Let me clear up the developers I am talking about – strictly web developers. I understand that the VS.NET and all those developers love Microsoft, it’s how they make a living. I’m talking about the web developers that are the ones that play a major role in what ad company we are going to go with; it’s going to be either Google or Microsoft. As you can see from the comment by “H”, us web developers have found Microsoft’s browser a pain to write code for.

    Sure, it’s cool to hate Microsoft right now. They’re #1… Need I say more? But then again, Google has propelled itself to the top of the search engine world, and everyone loves Google… Think of that what you want.

    And for your little comment, “Google is going to beat themselves”… Um… I don’t know how to reply to that… Google has the smartest people in the world working for them, and they have one of the top rated places on the planet to work. People I know that work at Google absolutely love it, and if I ever had a chance at getting hired there I’d jump all over it. Employees that are happy = more creativity = more productivity = better products = happier customers = being on top of the Search Engine world for as long as they keep it up.

    I will leave everyone with this quote from Mark Cuban

    ” And a word of advice to take or leave as you see fit. Its always a mistake to listen to your customers. The goal of any organization should be to give their customers or constituents what they will want, not what they did want. Its not the job of the customer to know their future consumption habits. Its your job.”

    http://www.blogmaverick.com

    Good luck

    Sam

  6. Josh Einstein wrote

    It’s the “not quite developer” people that hate you. The dorks that hang out on ZDNet blogs and the comments. I can’t tell you how to win them back. Microsoft is doing some really great things right now and companies like Google are getting praised for utter crap. I think it’s just cool to hate Microsoft right now. Just play your cards right and ride it out and don’t break the bank trying to acquire a bunch of companies to beat Google. Google is going to beat themselves.

    Josh,

    Let me clear up the developers I am talking about – strictly web developers. I understand that the VS.NET and all those developers love Microsoft, it’s how they make a living. I’m talking about the web developers that are the ones that play a major role in what ad company we are going to go with; it’s going to be either Google or Microsoft. As you can see from the comment by “H”, us web developers have found Microsoft’s browser a pain to write code for.

    Sure, it’s cool to hate Microsoft right now. They’re #1… Need I say more? But then again, Google has propelled itself to the top of the search engine world, and everyone loves Google… Think of that what you want.

    And for your little comment, “Google is going to beat themselves”… Um… I don’t know how to reply to that… Google has the smartest people in the world working for them, and they have one of the top rated places on the planet to work. People I know that work at Google absolutely love it, and if I ever had a chance at getting hired there I’d jump all over it. Employees that are happy = more creativity = more productivity = better products = happier customers = being on top of the Search Engine world for as long as they keep it up.

    I will leave everyone with this quote from Mark Cuban

    ” And a word of advice to take or leave as you see fit. Its always a mistake to listen to your customers. The goal of any organization should be to give their customers or constituents what they will want, not what they did want. Its not the job of the customer to know their future consumption habits. Its your job.”

    http://www.blogmaverick.com

    Good luck

    Sam

  7. @Josh Einstein

    I am one of the “dorks” who hangs out in ZDNet blogs. And believe me when I say devs hate MS for Windows and IE. The only reason me and my colleagues code for MS software is because we have to, because MS has a monopoly over the desktop market and because our dumb managers can’t understand a coherent busines arguement unless it comes from a snake-oil salesman. No other reason.

    It is dorks like us who even though working for free, have come up with products that has MS with its billions running scared.

    And it is people like you who make sites like Port 25 a hollow attempt. You can’t win us “back”. We were never with you in the first place. You could win us “over”. But, that’s a separate issue altogether.

    To give credit where it is due, .Net is a whole separate issue. Its quite a decent product, the IDE is good, and all that. That’s something I could see myself working on. Not in C# or any other bastardized languages though.

  8. @Josh Einstein

    I am one of the “dorks” who hangs out in ZDNet blogs. And believe me when I say devs hate MS for Windows and IE. The only reason me and my colleagues code for MS software is because we have to, because MS has a monopoly over the desktop market and because our dumb managers can’t understand a coherent busines arguement unless it comes from a snake-oil salesman. No other reason.

    It is dorks like us who even though working for free, have come up with products that has MS with its billions running scared.

    And it is people like you who make sites like Port 25 a hollow attempt. You can’t win us “back”. We were never with you in the first place. You could win us “over”. But, that’s a separate issue altogether.

    To give credit where it is due, .Net is a whole separate issue. Its quite a decent product, the IDE is good, and all that. That’s something I could see myself working on. Not in C# or any other bastardized languages though.

  9. Sam, I’m sure Google is a great place to work but happy employees doesn’t always == more creativity, productivity, happier customers, better products, etc. I worked for a dot com and everybody thought that back then. It turned out it just made a bunch of wealthy lazy yuppies. I’m not saying that’s what Google’s doing but it’s certainly not the secret to their success.

    Google’s search engine is great. Nothing can beat its relevancy right now. But their Calendar, Gmail, IM, etc. Better products? If a web mail and web calendar is the best Google can come up with then we’re in some big trouble. (Also Google seriously needs to hire some UI designers…)

    Even some of the Windows Live stuff has me shaking my head. I read posts from Live developers so excited because they’re making the web experience more “Outlook-like”. I don’t understand why people work so hard to make the web work more like desktop apps when desktop apps are right there. :)

    As for Google beating themselves, I think they’re going to try to expand too quickly into things they’re not good at and will probably eat up alot of money trying to defeat Microsoft and other big players. They should stick to what they do best — search.

  10. Sam, I’m sure Google is a great place to work but happy employees doesn’t always == more creativity, productivity, happier customers, better products, etc. I worked for a dot com and everybody thought that back then. It turned out it just made a bunch of wealthy lazy yuppies. I’m not saying that’s what Google’s doing but it’s certainly not the secret to their success.

    Google’s search engine is great. Nothing can beat its relevancy right now. But their Calendar, Gmail, IM, etc. Better products? If a web mail and web calendar is the best Google can come up with then we’re in some big trouble. (Also Google seriously needs to hire some UI designers…)

    Even some of the Windows Live stuff has me shaking my head. I read posts from Live developers so excited because they’re making the web experience more “Outlook-like”. I don’t understand why people work so hard to make the web work more like desktop apps when desktop apps are right there. :)

    As for Google beating themselves, I think they’re going to try to expand too quickly into things they’re not good at and will probably eat up alot of money trying to defeat Microsoft and other big players. They should stick to what they do best — search.

  11. Sorry about getting Warner wrong.

    Regarding Google having the “smartest employees.” That absolutely is NOT true. That’s total hype. Yes, they have a good group of smart employees, but they don’t have a lock on them. Why don’t you come over sometime and I’ll give you a tour of Microsoft and you’ll meet some of the top people in the world in computer science. And we’ve been hiring some kick ass people lately. In fact, we’ve just hired away a really smart guy from Google. You’ll find out about that soon.

  12. Sorry about getting Warner wrong.

    Regarding Google having the “smartest employees.” That absolutely is NOT true. That’s total hype. Yes, they have a good group of smart employees, but they don’t have a lock on them. Why don’t you come over sometime and I’ll give you a tour of Microsoft and you’ll meet some of the top people in the world in computer science. And we’ve been hiring some kick ass people lately. In fact, we’ve just hired away a really smart guy from Google. You’ll find out about that soon.

  13. Why is Microsoft so unfriendly to Web Developers?

    In April i wrote about this very thing. i like MS, i do, but damn – as a web developer, i feel spit opun.

  14. Robert,

    I definitely agree with you, no company has the market cornered on smart people, they’re everywhere. That’s amazing, someone from Google went to the dark side? :p

    Is it going to be headline news or something? Wow, Microsoft is starting to step the competition up… This is going to be fun!

    Sam

  15. Robert,

    I definitely agree with you, no company has the market cornered on smart people, they’re everywhere. That’s amazing, someone from Google went to the dark side? :p

    Is it going to be headline news or something? Wow, Microsoft is starting to step the competition up… This is going to be fun!

    Sam

  16. Josh Einstein: “I don’t understand why people work so hard to make the web work more like desktop apps when desktop apps are right there.”

    Quite simple – because they’re NOT always “right there”. I can get my e-mail and calendar from anywhere. If I’m in the airport and I want to drop by LaptopLane to find an e-mail, I don’t have to install anything – I just pull up a web browser and I’m set.

    Don’t be so myopic. Just because you don’t need it yourself doesn’t mean others can’t find it exceedingly useful.

  17. Josh Einstein: “I don’t understand why people work so hard to make the web work more like desktop apps when desktop apps are right there.”

    Quite simple – because they’re NOT always “right there”. I can get my e-mail and calendar from anywhere. If I’m in the airport and I want to drop by LaptopLane to find an e-mail, I don’t have to install anything – I just pull up a web browser and I’m set.

    Don’t be so myopic. Just because you don’t need it yourself doesn’t mean others can’t find it exceedingly useful.

  18. ceejayoz, then why do you care if you have right click/drag and drop/etc? I can’t even tell you the last time I’ve needed to check my mail from someone else’s computer. PDA’s are pretty cheap these days.

  19. ceejayoz, then why do you care if you have right click/drag and drop/etc? I can’t even tell you the last time I’ve needed to check my mail from someone else’s computer. PDA’s are pretty cheap these days.

  20. All web developers most certainly do not hate Microsoft.

    Sure there are some that openly flame Microsoft every chance they get but in my opinion it’s been more of a cult-like following.

    I find this generation of haters to be the younger web design/developers – the ones that think web 2.0 + ajax is hip – espcially when coupled with Firefox (yet they do not remember the history of XMLhttp many years ago, or it’s lack of support by Netscape.

    The same people that advocate CSS and Web Standards yet forget Microsoft brought CSS mainstream with IE.

    I could go on but I won’t. Long story short, sure Microsoft are not perfect but to ignore their advances, and great technologies is just silly :)

  21. All web developers most certainly do not hate Microsoft.

    Sure there are some that openly flame Microsoft every chance they get but in my opinion it’s been more of a cult-like following.

    I find this generation of haters to be the younger web design/developers – the ones that think web 2.0 + ajax is hip – espcially when coupled with Firefox (yet they do not remember the history of XMLhttp many years ago, or it’s lack of support by Netscape.

    The same people that advocate CSS and Web Standards yet forget Microsoft brought CSS mainstream with IE.

    I could go on but I won’t. Long story short, sure Microsoft are not perfect but to ignore their advances, and great technologies is just silly :)

  22. I’m a web developer. In both meanings of the title:
    + web developer – as in .NET, php, javascript …
    + website developer – as in css, tables, designs …

    MS is doing some really good things on the programming side. .NET is a huge initiative, which still seems to be underestimated.

    For the website dev’s. Yes it’s true – almost always a separate ie.css is needed. We do charge by the hour though.

    That separate fix for IE might bite back when IE7 comes out though – because then it will probably be an IE6.css (only) that is needed – which means – fixing old websites –> probably unbillable time – ouch!

    Best,

    Eli

  23. I’m a web developer. In both meanings of the title:
    + web developer – as in .NET, php, javascript …
    + website developer – as in css, tables, designs …

    MS is doing some really good things on the programming side. .NET is a huge initiative, which still seems to be underestimated.

    For the website dev’s. Yes it’s true – almost always a separate ie.css is needed. We do charge by the hour though.

    That separate fix for IE might bite back when IE7 comes out though – because then it will probably be an IE6.css (only) that is needed – which means – fixing old websites –> probably unbillable time – ouch!

    Best,

    Eli

  24. “Every time I code something, I need to write code that works in pretty much every browser, then I code up a branch exclusively for IE.”

    Too funny, I remember all too well when it was the reverse back in 2000: code to NS4, it would probably work with IE.

  25. “Every time I code something, I need to write code that works in pretty much every browser, then I code up a branch exclusively for IE.”

    Too funny, I remember all too well when it was the reverse back in 2000: code to NS4, it would probably work with IE.

  26. Robert

    What gives guys like Sam the credibility to pass of their own opinions as broad sweeping judgements and expect you (and all of us) to painfully go through them?

    “Most of the web developers hate MS” – It sure isnt true with customers and partners I speak to – who are these web developers? Which organizations do they belong to?

    Why do you give credence to anecdotal b***s*** in your blog?

  27. Robert

    What gives guys like Sam the credibility to pass of their own opinions as broad sweeping judgements and expect you (and all of us) to painfully go through them?

    “Most of the web developers hate MS” – It sure isnt true with customers and partners I speak to – who are these web developers? Which organizations do they belong to?

    Why do you give credence to anecdotal b***s*** in your blog?

  28. Josh Einstein: “ceejayoz, then why do you care if you have right click/drag and drop/etc?”

    Because they’re useful user interface patterns that let me get my work done faster and more intuitively?

    “I can’t even tell you the last time I’ve needed to check my mail from someone else’s computer.”

    I’ll say it again – “I don’t have to” is not a valid argument against something. I doubt you need tampons, either, but presumably you don’t argue against their production.

    Vivek: “It sure isnt true with customers and partners I speak to – who are these web developers? Which organizations do they belong to?”

    I’d imagine they belong to organizations like the Web Standards Project.

    Most of the frustration stems from IE6′s lack of support for a few key things – variably transparent PNGs, proper XHTML, a lot of the newer CSS, et cetera. Microsoft was good with releases – IE3 in 1996, IE4 in 1997, IE5 in 1999, IE5.5 in 2000, and IE6 in 2001. After IE6, though, we got a five year halt in releases.

    CSS2 had been out for three years by 2001. PNG had been out for five. XHTML for one. I don’t hate Microsoft for this, but it’s certainly extremely frustrating not to be able to use 5-10 year old handy technologies that the other browsers have supported for quite some time.

  29. Josh Einstein: “ceejayoz, then why do you care if you have right click/drag and drop/etc?”

    Because they’re useful user interface patterns that let me get my work done faster and more intuitively?

    “I can’t even tell you the last time I’ve needed to check my mail from someone else’s computer.”

    I’ll say it again – “I don’t have to” is not a valid argument against something. I doubt you need tampons, either, but presumably you don’t argue against their production.

    Vivek: “It sure isnt true with customers and partners I speak to – who are these web developers? Which organizations do they belong to?”

    I’d imagine they belong to organizations like the Web Standards Project.

    Most of the frustration stems from IE6′s lack of support for a few key things – variably transparent PNGs, proper XHTML, a lot of the newer CSS, et cetera. Microsoft was good with releases – IE3 in 1996, IE4 in 1997, IE5 in 1999, IE5.5 in 2000, and IE6 in 2001. After IE6, though, we got a five year halt in releases.

    CSS2 had been out for three years by 2001. PNG had been out for five. XHTML for one. I don’t hate Microsoft for this, but it’s certainly extremely frustrating not to be able to use 5-10 year old handy technologies that the other browsers have supported for quite some time.

  30. @Vivek
    Because a lot of the people (devs) don’t live or work in the MS ecosystem. Yet, we have to deal with it everyday. True, we bill by the hour but its hard to make managers understand what’s taking our code so long. People like Sam have the credibility to post something and get it noticed because its true. Just google for IE sucks and IE issues etc. and you will know the magnitude of the problem. And of course you are free to ignore this post if you will.

    And Shane, hating MS is not a cult. Its a part of my work day. I am in no cult or anything. Just to give you an example, have you ever heard of the problems with select boxes and list boxes showing through divs? Or, the fact that IE treats html id’s and names to be pretty much the same. And the select box issue has been on MS blogs forever, yet they refuse to fix it. And ever since this AJAX stuff came along, these issues have gained more importance as users now expect desktop like functionality from their browsers. Which is fine. But its unnecessary (mostly) and causes load problems on servers.

  31. @Vivek
    Because a lot of the people (devs) don’t live or work in the MS ecosystem. Yet, we have to deal with it everyday. True, we bill by the hour but its hard to make managers understand what’s taking our code so long. People like Sam have the credibility to post something and get it noticed because its true. Just google for IE sucks and IE issues etc. and you will know the magnitude of the problem. And of course you are free to ignore this post if you will.

    And Shane, hating MS is not a cult. Its a part of my work day. I am in no cult or anything. Just to give you an example, have you ever heard of the problems with select boxes and list boxes showing through divs? Or, the fact that IE treats html id’s and names to be pretty much the same. And the select box issue has been on MS blogs forever, yet they refuse to fix it. And ever since this AJAX stuff came along, these issues have gained more importance as users now expect desktop like functionality from their browsers. Which is fine. But its unnecessary (mostly) and causes load problems on servers.

  32. There are a few different classes of people I see in this space:

    1) Visual Web Designers. They use Illustrator or Photoshop to mock up sites, then Dreamweaver to splice them into designs.

    2) Scripters. They come from the camp of the Visual Web Designers and then use PHP to add some interactivity.

    3) Coders. They come from a programming background and do hard-core ecommerce and other functionality.

    4) Web 2.0ers. These people I haven’t figured out yet. They are visual people but also see coding as more creative then standard coders. These are the Ruby on Rails and Ajaxy people.

    I think MS looks really nice to the third group (coders). It really doesn’t have anything attractive to any of the other groups right now. MS is coming out with AJAXy stuff that might look like it’s going after Group 4, but in reality Atlas is for coders (group 3).

    Do you see any evidence MS is interested in and is going after the other groups?

  33. There are a few different classes of people I see in this space:

    1) Visual Web Designers. They use Illustrator or Photoshop to mock up sites, then Dreamweaver to splice them into designs.

    2) Scripters. They come from the camp of the Visual Web Designers and then use PHP to add some interactivity.

    3) Coders. They come from a programming background and do hard-core ecommerce and other functionality.

    4) Web 2.0ers. These people I haven’t figured out yet. They are visual people but also see coding as more creative then standard coders. These are the Ruby on Rails and Ajaxy people.

    I think MS looks really nice to the third group (coders). It really doesn’t have anything attractive to any of the other groups right now. MS is coming out with AJAXy stuff that might look like it’s going after Group 4, but in reality Atlas is for coders (group 3).

    Do you see any evidence MS is interested in and is going after the other groups?

  34. I agree with Vivek and Shean.

    Is this only a US of A “thing”? What happens here in Europe is something totally different. Somehow I am sick and tired of this “I hate Microsoft”, “Microsoft is Evil” and blah…blah…blaah, so on and so on. I come from the land of Nokia and Linux – yes Finland – which should be the most keen country in the world for open source. Sure we have them and that is ok, competition is always good. But they are not winning or whineing the “game”.

    I have noticed during the past 3 years here, that more and more companies are going back to using more and more MS technologies. We have a huge demand of .NET coders, more and more projects are done with .NET, which is fast reliable and cost effective. SPS is in HUGE demand in companies and in government (at this point 40% is done in .Net and 60% is done in open source – but the numbers we much worse couple of years ago).

    What has happened here is that companies have realized that using Java, PHP and Linux has not helped them to reduce costs or getting better solutions or helped them to make success stories.

    The only ones (here) who bash Microsoft are devoted Linux nerds, yes nerds. We are a country of 5 million and how many of them are nerds? 1% or 5% or less?? Well why should Microsoft only listen to them?

    The companies here using Microsoft solutions (and I am not talking about Office or XP) are happy about them. Why? They are easy to use, scalable, reliable. I never hear them bashing Microsoft and I have worked in this business here since ´97 (yes with Java and Linux too). I do not hear companies using Java or PHP bashing Microsoft either.

    They hype of Linux/Java/PHP here was during 2001-2003 but now we are all talking business, helping our customers with the technology we prefer is the best. Bashing Microsoft won’t help our competitors to get more business and they know it. Customers realize this, they do not eat that crap. You really have to convice them that your solution is the right one and if they are convinced that it is the best, they buy it – .NET, Java, PHP or what ever. You have to prove and not talk rubbish.

    I work in a company that is a 3 time Gold Certified Partner and we have more work we can handle, trying to recruit new people with cats and dogs. And our customers are more than happy with our solutions. BTW. our clients are mainly from the top 100 biggest companies here, so we are not talking about small things here.

    So, please Robert do not listen to these nonsene bashers all the time. Microsoft is more liked than hated – trust me. This conversation is so “American” and you should ignore it and remember what the people said to you when you were here in Europe last year – they were definitely not bashing Microsoft or where they? Thought so :-)

    Of course Microsoft should improve and listen to customers, as they have now, but so could all the competitors as well- they are not in a better position.

  35. I agree with Vivek and Shean.

    Is this only a US of A “thing”? What happens here in Europe is something totally different. Somehow I am sick and tired of this “I hate Microsoft”, “Microsoft is Evil” and blah…blah…blaah, so on and so on. I come from the land of Nokia and Linux – yes Finland – which should be the most keen country in the world for open source. Sure we have them and that is ok, competition is always good. But they are not winning or whineing the “game”.

    I have noticed during the past 3 years here, that more and more companies are going back to using more and more MS technologies. We have a huge demand of .NET coders, more and more projects are done with .NET, which is fast reliable and cost effective. SPS is in HUGE demand in companies and in government (at this point 40% is done in .Net and 60% is done in open source – but the numbers we much worse couple of years ago).

    What has happened here is that companies have realized that using Java, PHP and Linux has not helped them to reduce costs or getting better solutions or helped them to make success stories.

    The only ones (here) who bash Microsoft are devoted Linux nerds, yes nerds. We are a country of 5 million and how many of them are nerds? 1% or 5% or less?? Well why should Microsoft only listen to them?

    The companies here using Microsoft solutions (and I am not talking about Office or XP) are happy about them. Why? They are easy to use, scalable, reliable. I never hear them bashing Microsoft and I have worked in this business here since ´97 (yes with Java and Linux too). I do not hear companies using Java or PHP bashing Microsoft either.

    They hype of Linux/Java/PHP here was during 2001-2003 but now we are all talking business, helping our customers with the technology we prefer is the best. Bashing Microsoft won’t help our competitors to get more business and they know it. Customers realize this, they do not eat that crap. You really have to convice them that your solution is the right one and if they are convinced that it is the best, they buy it – .NET, Java, PHP or what ever. You have to prove and not talk rubbish.

    I work in a company that is a 3 time Gold Certified Partner and we have more work we can handle, trying to recruit new people with cats and dogs. And our customers are more than happy with our solutions. BTW. our clients are mainly from the top 100 biggest companies here, so we are not talking about small things here.

    So, please Robert do not listen to these nonsene bashers all the time. Microsoft is more liked than hated – trust me. This conversation is so “American” and you should ignore it and remember what the people said to you when you were here in Europe last year – they were definitely not bashing Microsoft or where they? Thought so :-)

    Of course Microsoft should improve and listen to customers, as they have now, but so could all the competitors as well- they are not in a better position.

  36. Ari: “We are a country of 5 million and how many of them are nerds? 1% or 5% or less?? Well why should Microsoft only listen to them?”

    Because that 1-5% are the ones Microsoft is targeting with their web development platforms. Non-nerds don’t make websites – why on earth would you listen to someone who doesn’t make websites on subjects like this pertaining to making websites?

    “We have a huge demand of .NET coders, more and more projects are done with .NET, which is fast reliable and cost effective.”

    The issue is not with .NET. You’re setting up a strawman. The issue is with IE requiring hacks and workarounds to get some useful stuff working that should have found their way into an IE6.5 years back.

    We’re not talking about the server-side stuff. Microsoft’s server-side offerings are nice, and compete just fine with PHP, Java, etc. That’s not the issue.

    The issue is Internet Explorer’s massive lag time in implementing standards. Another issue is Microsoft’s launching Live.com sites without any support for Firefox – with 15% market share (and far greater amongst early adopters – an important customer segment, that!), it shouldn’t be ignored.

    Live.com should have been designed from the start to work in IE AND Firefox – otherwise, you lose a lot of customers to Google and Yahoo!, who seem to have no problem doing so.

  37. Ari: “We are a country of 5 million and how many of them are nerds? 1% or 5% or less?? Well why should Microsoft only listen to them?”

    Because that 1-5% are the ones Microsoft is targeting with their web development platforms. Non-nerds don’t make websites – why on earth would you listen to someone who doesn’t make websites on subjects like this pertaining to making websites?

    “We have a huge demand of .NET coders, more and more projects are done with .NET, which is fast reliable and cost effective.”

    The issue is not with .NET. You’re setting up a strawman. The issue is with IE requiring hacks and workarounds to get some useful stuff working that should have found their way into an IE6.5 years back.

    We’re not talking about the server-side stuff. Microsoft’s server-side offerings are nice, and compete just fine with PHP, Java, etc. That’s not the issue.

    The issue is Internet Explorer’s massive lag time in implementing standards. Another issue is Microsoft’s launching Live.com sites without any support for Firefox – with 15% market share (and far greater amongst early adopters – an important customer segment, that!), it shouldn’t be ignored.

    Live.com should have been designed from the start to work in IE AND Firefox – otherwise, you lose a lot of customers to Google and Yahoo!, who seem to have no problem doing so.

  38. I totally agree with Ari…I like MS, sure there are times when frustration creeps in but overall MS has given many kickass technologies that make quick business possible.

    My company has developed a web application for the WasteWater Treatment Industry with close to 900 webpages, totally customizable with user defined page flows and an extrememly complicated calculation engine to calculate flow, load, compliance and penalties. The application retails for over 1 million dollars and everything was created using .NET 2.0/ASP.NET 2.0 in mere 8 months with 7 designer/developers.

    We estimated doing this same thing using open source technologies and found out that it would take close to 2 years to achieve the same. With MS technologies we were able to receive our compensation from our clients an entire 16 months earlier. Tell this to any manager/owner of a company and he will shed tears of joy the whole day.

    My point is MS has problems but whinning and bashing is not the solution. I appreciate what Sam has done…he approached an influencial person within MS and told him the problems and expected a genuine answer from him and the company. This is indeed the right way to do things, this way things get solved, whining and bashing is nothing but a waste of time

    -debp

  39. I totally agree with Ari…I like MS, sure there are times when frustration creeps in but overall MS has given many kickass technologies that make quick business possible.

    My company has developed a web application for the WasteWater Treatment Industry with close to 900 webpages, totally customizable with user defined page flows and an extrememly complicated calculation engine to calculate flow, load, compliance and penalties. The application retails for over 1 million dollars and everything was created using .NET 2.0/ASP.NET 2.0 in mere 8 months with 7 designer/developers.

    We estimated doing this same thing using open source technologies and found out that it would take close to 2 years to achieve the same. With MS technologies we were able to receive our compensation from our clients an entire 16 months earlier. Tell this to any manager/owner of a company and he will shed tears of joy the whole day.

    My point is MS has problems but whinning and bashing is not the solution. I appreciate what Sam has done…he approached an influencial person within MS and told him the problems and expected a genuine answer from him and the company. This is indeed the right way to do things, this way things get solved, whining and bashing is nothing but a waste of time

    -debp

  40. > “These guys are still talking with us. ”

    Well, not really. We’ve tried talking to MS, but failed for years on end. We’ve told MS time and time again that IE was buggy, non-standards compliant. No-one bothered, because the decision was made to stagnate IE.

    We’re sick of buggy, outdated, products. IE, .Net, Windows XP.

    And we’re sick of insecure, buggy products that get thrown out the door just to scalp revenue, or because it’ll look good to some analysts meeting (visual studio 2005, Vista, Office 12. Wow a new Mr Clippy anyone ?).

    Yes – you’re attempting dialog. Congratulations. But unless thats backed up with real change – evidence to the outside world – the world outside the Redmond Campus – that MS is actually serious about growing, then the talk is wasted.

    We’re just watching out of a sense of morbid curiosity, waiting for the empire to collapse.

    So how to change ? Simple. Accountabilty. Not the developers. The “partner” level folks who routinely screw up. Vista Reset anyone ? Was anyone fired ? Vista Slip ? Anyone fired ? Visual studio shipping with bugs ? Anyone fired ?

    Ahh. No.

    What about the stagnant, and now heading due-south shareprice ? Accountabilty ? Anyone fired ?

    What about the middle management bloat and red tape that’s been the inspiration for Mini-Microsoft ?

    Nada. The same “mom and pop” (if you can stretch this metaphor beyond breaking point and imagine Gates and Balmer as “Mom” and “Pop”!) company, still making the same empty promises (Vista this year!) and still failing (Ah, Vista next year. Q1 we promise. Or Q2..)

    So its nice we have someone “inside” microsoft claiming to pass these comments on. Its a nice marketing exercise, isnt it. Cheap, effective. And your doing a sterling job turning around the “Microsoft is evil” jibe. Granted, behind your back, the MS lawyers are still beavering away in multi-million dollar cases, giving every impression of not having heard your message…

    Will this achieve anything ?

    Tell you what. When MS have no outstanding multi-million dollar court cases, then we’ll believe – on the outside – that MS’s approach to business has changed.

    Or when MS actually announce something and then deliver it within the delivery date, all features intact, then that might actually gain some trust.

    Till then, we’ll just sit here with the RSS feeds and our popcorn, enjoying the disaster movie…

    —* Bill

  41. > “These guys are still talking with us. ”

    Well, not really. We’ve tried talking to MS, but failed for years on end. We’ve told MS time and time again that IE was buggy, non-standards compliant. No-one bothered, because the decision was made to stagnate IE.

    We’re sick of buggy, outdated, products. IE, .Net, Windows XP.

    And we’re sick of insecure, buggy products that get thrown out the door just to scalp revenue, or because it’ll look good to some analysts meeting (visual studio 2005, Vista, Office 12. Wow a new Mr Clippy anyone ?).

    Yes – you’re attempting dialog. Congratulations. But unless thats backed up with real change – evidence to the outside world – the world outside the Redmond Campus – that MS is actually serious about growing, then the talk is wasted.

    We’re just watching out of a sense of morbid curiosity, waiting for the empire to collapse.

    So how to change ? Simple. Accountabilty. Not the developers. The “partner” level folks who routinely screw up. Vista Reset anyone ? Was anyone fired ? Vista Slip ? Anyone fired ? Visual studio shipping with bugs ? Anyone fired ?

    Ahh. No.

    What about the stagnant, and now heading due-south shareprice ? Accountabilty ? Anyone fired ?

    What about the middle management bloat and red tape that’s been the inspiration for Mini-Microsoft ?

    Nada. The same “mom and pop” (if you can stretch this metaphor beyond breaking point and imagine Gates and Balmer as “Mom” and “Pop”!) company, still making the same empty promises (Vista this year!) and still failing (Ah, Vista next year. Q1 we promise. Or Q2..)

    So its nice we have someone “inside” microsoft claiming to pass these comments on. Its a nice marketing exercise, isnt it. Cheap, effective. And your doing a sterling job turning around the “Microsoft is evil” jibe. Granted, behind your back, the MS lawyers are still beavering away in multi-million dollar cases, giving every impression of not having heard your message…

    Will this achieve anything ?

    Tell you what. When MS have no outstanding multi-million dollar court cases, then we’ll believe – on the outside – that MS’s approach to business has changed.

    Or when MS actually announce something and then deliver it within the delivery date, all features intact, then that might actually gain some trust.

    Till then, we’ll just sit here with the RSS feeds and our popcorn, enjoying the disaster movie…

    —* Bill

  42. Bill you are contradicting yourself. You say people should be fired for shipping products with bugs, then you say people should be fired for delaying releases. Which is it? You think software gets shipped on time? Rarely. Of course you could just not announce anything and ship it when you ship it but partners and customers wouldn’t stand for that.

    Also, you think there’s a such thing as a multibillion dollar corporation that doesn’t have pending lawsuits?

    I’ll admit my previous posts were a bit off base because I didn’t realize this was an “I hate IE” discussion. That I can understand since it went largely ignored for years. But generalizing it as a “I hate Microsoft” discussion is pointless and nobody listens because it just sounds whiney.

  43. Bill you are contradicting yourself. You say people should be fired for shipping products with bugs, then you say people should be fired for delaying releases. Which is it? You think software gets shipped on time? Rarely. Of course you could just not announce anything and ship it when you ship it but partners and customers wouldn’t stand for that.

    Also, you think there’s a such thing as a multibillion dollar corporation that doesn’t have pending lawsuits?

    I’ll admit my previous posts were a bit off base because I didn’t realize this was an “I hate IE” discussion. That I can understand since it went largely ignored for years. But generalizing it as a “I hate Microsoft” discussion is pointless and nobody listens because it just sounds whiney.

  44. I just get bored of people who complain they have to write hacks to get things to work with IE, because I’ve had to use Mozilla proprietary hacks to get things to work with Firefox.

  45. I just get bored of people who complain they have to write hacks to get things to work with IE, because I’ve had to use Mozilla proprietary hacks to get things to work with Firefox.

  46. All of you guys have gotten way off the topic of why this post was originally written. I wrote to Robert about their new AdCenter product. I don’t care about IE vs Firefox (even though firefox destroys it and poops on the ashes :P) or who uses what technologies. I’m just saying, when it comes to web developers, the majority of us ARE those 1% nerds, and the most of us DO use Google and are proponents of open source. Yeah I’m sure there are those corporate developers that are into Microsoft, I’m not saying that EVERY developer hates MS.

    What it comes down to is if Microsoft is looking to win with their new AdCenter, they aren’t going to need the average internet users. They’re going to need us web developers, because we have the most major say in what is going to be implemented in a site. WE are the ones that get to decide… Even if a client told me to use AdCenter it would only take me 30 seconds to convince him that Google’s AdSense was much better. If Microsoft thinks their new product is going to take a big chunk of out Google’s market share, they’re wrong and they have a lot of work to do to win us developers back.

    Sam

  47. All of you guys have gotten way off the topic of why this post was originally written. I wrote to Robert about their new AdCenter product. I don’t care about IE vs Firefox (even though firefox destroys it and poops on the ashes :P) or who uses what technologies. I’m just saying, when it comes to web developers, the majority of us ARE those 1% nerds, and the most of us DO use Google and are proponents of open source. Yeah I’m sure there are those corporate developers that are into Microsoft, I’m not saying that EVERY developer hates MS.

    What it comes down to is if Microsoft is looking to win with their new AdCenter, they aren’t going to need the average internet users. They’re going to need us web developers, because we have the most major say in what is going to be implemented in a site. WE are the ones that get to decide… Even if a client told me to use AdCenter it would only take me 30 seconds to convince him that Google’s AdSense was much better. If Microsoft thinks their new product is going to take a big chunk of out Google’s market share, they’re wrong and they have a lot of work to do to win us developers back.

    Sam

  48. Brian Shapiro,

    Mozilla hacks? Now that’s what I call an oxymoron… Almost as much of an oxymoron as Microsoft Works
    :P

    Sam

  49. Brian Shapiro,

    Mozilla hacks? Now that’s what I call an oxymoron… Almost as much of an oxymoron as Microsoft Works
    :P

    Sam

  50. I don’t know if you guys have seen this but you’ll get a kick out of it

    explorerdestroyer.com

    killbillsbrowser.com

    Google’s giving every referrer $1/person that downloads firefox with the Google toolbar…

    Sam

  51. I don’t know if you guys have seen this but you’ll get a kick out of it

    explorerdestroyer.com

    killbillsbrowser.com

    Google’s giving every referrer $1/person that downloads firefox with the Google toolbar…

    Sam

  52. Sam: “People I know that work at Google absolutely love it, and if I ever had a chance at getting hired there I’d jump all over it.”

    Sure, Google employees like working at Google, but Microsoft employees like working there too (as evidence, I give the huge number of channel9.msdn.com videos featuring employees showing off their work).

    BTW, not everyone is happy to work at Google. Borland/Delphi legend Danny Thorpe quit Google after just four months and went to Microsoft, specifically Windows Live.

  53. Sam: “People I know that work at Google absolutely love it, and if I ever had a chance at getting hired there I’d jump all over it.”

    Sure, Google employees like working at Google, but Microsoft employees like working there too (as evidence, I give the huge number of channel9.msdn.com videos featuring employees showing off their work).

    BTW, not everyone is happy to work at Google. Borland/Delphi legend Danny Thorpe quit Google after just four months and went to Microsoft, specifically Windows Live.

  54. Google has started paying for referrals to its google pack. When will Microsoft start paying me for using IE ? :)

  55. Google has started paying for referrals to its google pack. When will Microsoft start paying me for using IE ? :)

  56. its microsoft theory and practice that makes us hate you so much. The theory (the marketing hype) vs. the reality of what’s actually shipping. Remember how whidbey was going to ship in june 2004? so the hype machine was prepping a full 6 months ahead about all the cool features. june 2004? uh sorry. we arent going to ship now until june 2005, but the freaking articles in all the mags/websites just kept going and going and going and going. by the time june 2005 i was over whidbey (especially since I was waiting now until november 2005!) I had seen so many articles about what was there, what had been removed, what was going to be so great in 2.0 that I just tuned out. my MSDN U kit from november last year is still unopened and unloved.

    my manager had seen so many articles on 2.0 that he started asking me why I wasnt using these things to solve my hard problems. I kept saying “I Cant” its still beta and we have not GoLive license yet. this went on for over a year.

    MS needs to get over the Uber release habit and get back to the MSDN tradition of shipping something complete once a quarter.
    At work we are asked to solve our problems in internet time and not having tools to do so is a problem – we seem to all carry our browser compatibility back of tricks – thats is just ASS. My boss doesnt care about what tools we use (and his very willing to pay for them) if the site goes live and the apps solve our business problem. if MS cant get with the program we’ll (the developer community) seek another technology and supplier – ruby on rails for example.

    What good is talking about IIS 7.0 and how great its going to be when it ships someday (2008 is our current office pool bet) when we got angst and issues with IIS 6.0 that hasnt seen a refresh really since 2003 when it shipped out the door.

    –//ike

  57. its microsoft theory and practice that makes us hate you so much. The theory (the marketing hype) vs. the reality of what’s actually shipping. Remember how whidbey was going to ship in june 2004? so the hype machine was prepping a full 6 months ahead about all the cool features. june 2004? uh sorry. we arent going to ship now until june 2005, but the freaking articles in all the mags/websites just kept going and going and going and going. by the time june 2005 i was over whidbey (especially since I was waiting now until november 2005!) I had seen so many articles about what was there, what had been removed, what was going to be so great in 2.0 that I just tuned out. my MSDN U kit from november last year is still unopened and unloved.

    my manager had seen so many articles on 2.0 that he started asking me why I wasnt using these things to solve my hard problems. I kept saying “I Cant” its still beta and we have not GoLive license yet. this went on for over a year.

    MS needs to get over the Uber release habit and get back to the MSDN tradition of shipping something complete once a quarter.
    At work we are asked to solve our problems in internet time and not having tools to do so is a problem – we seem to all carry our browser compatibility back of tricks – thats is just ASS. My boss doesnt care about what tools we use (and his very willing to pay for them) if the site goes live and the apps solve our business problem. if MS cant get with the program we’ll (the developer community) seek another technology and supplier – ruby on rails for example.

    What good is talking about IIS 7.0 and how great its going to be when it ships someday (2008 is our current office pool bet) when we got angst and issues with IIS 6.0 that hasnt seen a refresh really since 2003 when it shipped out the door.

    –//ike

  58. @debp
    I think you are lying. Reason being, you put out an app with 9000 pages in 7 months with 7 devs. That’s 6 pages a day per dev. I would hate to be the QA on that thing. That’s not counting business logic, DB’s etc. That’s not the point though. I have worked for companies who do millions of transactions per day in the insurance, travel, education domain. Selling your app for a mil does not prove anything.

    @Molly

    Mini microsoft

  59. @debp
    I think you are lying. Reason being, you put out an app with 9000 pages in 7 months with 7 devs. That’s 6 pages a day per dev. I would hate to be the QA on that thing. That’s not counting business logic, DB’s etc. That’s not the point though. I have worked for companies who do millions of transactions per day in the insurance, travel, education domain. Selling your app for a mil does not prove anything.

    @Molly

    Mini microsoft

  60. I’m not a developer, but I’ve thought of Microsoft as the evil empire ever since I was VP of Corp. Com at Lotus in 1986. But I met you at the New Comms Forum in March and was sufficiently impressed and have been going to bed with “Naked Conversations” ever since. Okay,so I’m a slow reader. But I have to say that after reading your blog and the book, I may still hate many of the things you’ve done in the past, and I’m not wild about your software, but I have been saying much nicer things about Microsoft lately — and have been advocating your book to everyone I meet. So you’ve made at least one(and I suspect many many) converts.

  61. I’m not a developer, but I’ve thought of Microsoft as the evil empire ever since I was VP of Corp. Com at Lotus in 1986. But I met you at the New Comms Forum in March and was sufficiently impressed and have been going to bed with “Naked Conversations” ever since. Okay,so I’m a slow reader. But I have to say that after reading your blog and the book, I may still hate many of the things you’ve done in the past, and I’m not wild about your software, but I have been saying much nicer things about Microsoft lately — and have been advocating your book to everyone I meet. So you’ve made at least one(and I suspect many many) converts.

  62. @H

    Yes, I’m aware of miniMSFT. I’m also aware that all large companies have disgruntled employees (they just have the good taste not to air their laundry in public), I’m also aware that there’s no way to determine how many people post to miniMicrosoft. The posts are anonymous, and many of them have the exact same writing style, so it could be (and likely is) a small group of folks posting over and over.

    I’ll take the the hundreds of Microsoft employees that have appeared in channel9 videos over anonymous posts to miniMicrosoft (many of which aren’t even by Microsoft employees, but by those pretending to be such as well as slashdot fanboys; MiniMicrosoft himself admitted as much when he turned on comment moderation a few weeks ago).

  63. @H

    Yes, I’m aware of miniMSFT. I’m also aware that all large companies have disgruntled employees (they just have the good taste not to air their laundry in public), I’m also aware that there’s no way to determine how many people post to miniMicrosoft. The posts are anonymous, and many of them have the exact same writing style, so it could be (and likely is) a small group of folks posting over and over.

    I’ll take the the hundreds of Microsoft employees that have appeared in channel9 videos over anonymous posts to miniMicrosoft (many of which aren’t even by Microsoft employees, but by those pretending to be such as well as slashdot fanboys; MiniMicrosoft himself admitted as much when he turned on comment moderation a few weeks ago).

  64. Katie Delahaye Paine, how was Microsoft an “evil empire” in 1986? Wasn’t your Lotus the evil empire back then? ;-)

  65. Katie Delahaye Paine, how was Microsoft an “evil empire” in 1986? Wasn’t your Lotus the evil empire back then? ;-)

  66. @Molly
    I hope you are management or something like that in MS. Hope to God your job description does not involve anything that needs logical thought.

    If you knew that there are such employees in every company, you should not have made your earlier statement that everyone was happy in MS land. The people posting to Mini microsoft are anonymous because people like you would fire them if they wrote in under their real names. And people on, not in, channel 9 are praising MS, so they use their real names. What’s your point?

    And its not true that posts on mini microsoft have the same language. Anyone can google for it and see clearly its from people with different styles and people with inside knowledge on how things work in la-la land. But if you were a good manager, you would do something to stop sites like mini microsoft instead of doing PR damage control and hope noone notices.

  67. @Molly
    I hope you are management or something like that in MS. Hope to God your job description does not involve anything that needs logical thought.

    If you knew that there are such employees in every company, you should not have made your earlier statement that everyone was happy in MS land. The people posting to Mini microsoft are anonymous because people like you would fire them if they wrote in under their real names. And people on, not in, channel 9 are praising MS, so they use their real names. What’s your point?

    And its not true that posts on mini microsoft have the same language. Anyone can google for it and see clearly its from people with different styles and people with inside knowledge on how things work in la-la land. But if you were a good manager, you would do something to stop sites like mini microsoft instead of doing PR damage control and hope noone notices.

  68. @24 – Josh:

    “Bill you are contradicting yourself. You say people should be fired for shipping products with bugs, then you say people should be fired for delaying releases. Which is it?”

    I think your oversimplifying my argument. Vista was announced years ago with lots of features. A scant few remain now. In the meantime, there was Vista Reset – thousands of developers work, over three years, thrown away.

    Granted, software sometimes ships with some features not complete or removed. Not huge tracts of features.. And sometimes software ships late. Months, perhaps. Not years.

    Vista. How many years late now ? What kind of percentage of features are left ?

    So – who’s in charge of this mess, and why cant they build plans and timescales that even they can keep to ?

    If they cant – and MS has demonstrated time and time again that they cant get this bit of software delivery management right – then the person responsible should have consequences for their (lack of) actions.

    It happens in any other organisation. Why not MS? Is MS some sort of special case where management isnt measured ?

    Perhaps this is why folks like Mini-MSFT have so much to feed on. A middle management-layer overpopulated with people who cant deliver.

    And upper management refusal to grow their business.

    Hope this clarifies my point.

    —* Bill

  69. @24 – Josh:

    “Bill you are contradicting yourself. You say people should be fired for shipping products with bugs, then you say people should be fired for delaying releases. Which is it?”

    I think your oversimplifying my argument. Vista was announced years ago with lots of features. A scant few remain now. In the meantime, there was Vista Reset – thousands of developers work, over three years, thrown away.

    Granted, software sometimes ships with some features not complete or removed. Not huge tracts of features.. And sometimes software ships late. Months, perhaps. Not years.

    Vista. How many years late now ? What kind of percentage of features are left ?

    So – who’s in charge of this mess, and why cant they build plans and timescales that even they can keep to ?

    If they cant – and MS has demonstrated time and time again that they cant get this bit of software delivery management right – then the person responsible should have consequences for their (lack of) actions.

    It happens in any other organisation. Why not MS? Is MS some sort of special case where management isnt measured ?

    Perhaps this is why folks like Mini-MSFT have so much to feed on. A middle management-layer overpopulated with people who cant deliver.

    And upper management refusal to grow their business.

    Hope this clarifies my point.

    —* Bill

  70. @ Bill

    I was just at a conference where a guy spoke about Longhorn and some about Vista. Many of the features that have been cut have actually been delayed. Some have been removed as not practical, but many they just didn’t think could be done well in time for release. So they decided instead of pushing things back more and more, they would delay them, with the intention of adding many of them in future releases. Some will be ready for SP1, thus adding them back in for no extra cost. They even have a schedule for releasing of service packs and future OSes.

    Yeah, they bit off more than they could chew. The delays have been long. But I think they are trying to change that. It has come back to bite them in various ways, such as claims that Vista has ripped off features of OS X, when these features were announced for Vista pre-OS X. Yes, that shows how long we’ve been waiting, but I’d rather it be sent later, with less bugs and less features, than earlier with a ton of features that don’t quite work.

    Could be worse. Could be Duke Nukem Forever :)

  71. @ Bill

    I was just at a conference where a guy spoke about Longhorn and some about Vista. Many of the features that have been cut have actually been delayed. Some have been removed as not practical, but many they just didn’t think could be done well in time for release. So they decided instead of pushing things back more and more, they would delay them, with the intention of adding many of them in future releases. Some will be ready for SP1, thus adding them back in for no extra cost. They even have a schedule for releasing of service packs and future OSes.

    Yeah, they bit off more than they could chew. The delays have been long. But I think they are trying to change that. It has come back to bite them in various ways, such as claims that Vista has ripped off features of OS X, when these features were announced for Vista pre-OS X. Yes, that shows how long we’ve been waiting, but I’d rather it be sent later, with less bugs and less features, than earlier with a ton of features that don’t quite work.

    Could be worse. Could be Duke Nukem Forever :)

  72. It has come back to bite them in various ways, such as claims that Vista has ripped off features of OS X,

    So MS was talking about.. um.. security before 2001.. talking about search.. stability… talking about desktop apps (widgets)?

    MS was talking while Apple was shipping? sure.. impressive

  73. It has come back to bite them in various ways, such as claims that Vista has ripped off features of OS X,

    So MS was talking about.. um.. security before 2001.. talking about search.. stability… talking about desktop apps (widgets)?

    MS was talking while Apple was shipping? sure.. impressive