The challenge for Europe: keeping tech there instead of the valley

July 6, 2006 By

Interesting article in Computer Business Review Online. Open Source companies are urged to remain European by Matt Asay, director of the Open Source Business Conference.

I have been talking about this with quite a few people lately because my readers seemed to favor doing a show about things happening “outside the valley.” I started noticing an anti-Silicon Valley sentiment on my trips last year.

Part of it is jealousy. When so many geek dinners happen in the shadow of San Francisco it makes everyone else uneasy. But, there’s something deeper and I think this article tapped into it: money and jobs.

If you’re a geek outside of San Francisco or Redmond, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

And, worse, if you are a fledgling company and you need to expand, if you aren’t in one of those areas it’s hard to find great potential workers.

Lots of people fight with me on this one, but the culture in the valley is really unique too. Geeks go there and they don’t want to leave because everywhere around them they hear people talking tech — it’s an addictive culture for someone who just wants to build stuff. I didn’t sense the same culture in Europe until I got to a conference. I didn’t see people working on computers in cafes or on the trains the way I do in California — and when I did I never saw someone running a compiler like I find in California or Redmond. I didn’t see “maker behavior” until I got to the conference sites. I’ll have to do a lot better at explaining what I mean, but you can sense it when you go to a restaurant.

One thing I also notice is that in California smoking isn’t allowed. Anywhere. Most geeks that I know don’t smoke. So, are we going to move somewhere that smoking is allowed everywhere? No.

I’ll never live in a smoking-allowed area again. Many geeks get really turned off by the smoking culture. Yeah, I know there are lots of geeks who smoke too, but they are only about 20%, even in Europe where it seems everyone smokes.

You might say it doesn’t matter, but get the non-smoking geeks alone and they’ll admit they hate the smoking culture in Europe. It is starting to change, by the way. In Ireland they had banned smoking in pubs. I hear that anti-smoking laws are spreading throughout Europe. That’s a small step to keeping tech in Europe instead of letting it come to San Francisco.

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  • Pepe

    Yep, from my experience – the Valley:

    1. is full of self important people who think that working in the Valley is a ultimate top of everything. People in their 50s wearing logo t-shirts – sorry, get a life, please.

    2. is even full of people who wouldn’t get a job outside of the Valley, in more tight markets. The advantage of the Valley is that almost anybody can get a job (I’ve worked in SV for 10 years and I’ve seen it).

    3. is a place where even the most stupidiest ideas can get a funding.

    4. is a place where you can buy 40 years old paper shack box called a house for 800K.

    5. is a place only for the geeks – don’t expect any real culture events besides the geek parties. Anyway, why you need any culture events when working 8AM/7PM job (and then sitting with your laptop at Starbucks or talking to other geeks about some technology during weekends)?

    Robert, I crossed US and Europe many times (I’m actually from Europe) and I can tell you – people don’t give a shit about SV. They simply don’t care. Only geeks from SV think that SV and the SV technology is the most important thing under the sun.

    You are years behind a proper public transportation, mobile technology, car efficient technology (no, not talking about those rich gyus trying to make 100 miles on a gallon in a super light cars, I’m talking about real technologies used in already produced cars), about the solar energy technology for your 300 sunny days per year and so on. The thechnology world is not only about Web 2.0 and other over-hyped technologies.

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  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Pepe: good points. But on my travels I’ve found the same to be true most places. The people who work at CocaCola in Atlanta, for instance, think the same things.

    I totally disagree on you about culture. But, can see where you’re coming from. Who really cares, though? SFO flies everywhere in the world so if you need some culture just head on over to London or Tokyo or Paris for the weekend.

    What I like about the valley is there are about 60 different languages spoken within an hour’s drive of San Francisco. This means the world’s culture is brought there. I really miss that in Seattle.

    As to public transport, totally agreed. The valley grew up as a farm town and the farmers never thought that their industry would be gone within 30 years and would be transplanted by something else.

    If you think Silicon Valley is only about Web 2.0 and over-hyped technologies, then I guess you need to move somewhere else for a while. Some of the best genetics research is being done there. Some of the best cancer and other medical research too. Toyota and GM have a huge auto plant there. The best radio station in the Western United States is there. And San Francisco is well known as a musical hotbed. Some of the best movie companies are located within an hour of SF too. And many, many other things (my dad built military satellites there, a friend built radar systems).

    As for not caring about SV? That’s not my experience at all. In fact, look at the markets. What’s the hottest companies? They are located in Silicon Valley. If no one cared about SV Google wouldn’t be at $400+.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Pepe: good points. But on my travels I’ve found the same to be true most places. The people who work at CocaCola in Atlanta, for instance, think the same things.

    I totally disagree on you about culture. But, can see where you’re coming from. Who really cares, though? SFO flies everywhere in the world so if you need some culture just head on over to London or Tokyo or Paris for the weekend.

    What I like about the valley is there are about 60 different languages spoken within an hour’s drive of San Francisco. This means the world’s culture is brought there. I really miss that in Seattle.

    As to public transport, totally agreed. The valley grew up as a farm town and the farmers never thought that their industry would be gone within 30 years and would be transplanted by something else.

    If you think Silicon Valley is only about Web 2.0 and over-hyped technologies, then I guess you need to move somewhere else for a while. Some of the best genetics research is being done there. Some of the best cancer and other medical research too. Toyota and GM have a huge auto plant there. The best radio station in the Western United States is there. And San Francisco is well known as a musical hotbed. Some of the best movie companies are located within an hour of SF too. And many, many other things (my dad built military satellites there, a friend built radar systems).

    As for not caring about SV? That’s not my experience at all. In fact, look at the markets. What’s the hottest companies? They are located in Silicon Valley. If no one cared about SV Google wouldn’t be at $400+.

  • Francois Rivest

    As somone else mentionned, people can smoke in public buildings (restaurant, etc..) in Quebec anymore. But I remember that 10 years ago, most geek here were smokers!

    There is also a movement toward working from home here, and hence an increase number of laptops in coffe shop around here… but these are not all geeks. (I still haven’t see compilers in coffee, except mine.)

    But if you look for workers, migrate your compagny here, we have talented geeks. :)

  • Francois Rivest

    As somone else mentionned, people can smoke in public buildings (restaurant, etc..) in Quebec anymore. But I remember that 10 years ago, most geek here were smokers!

    There is also a movement toward working from home here, and hence an increase number of laptops in coffe shop around here… but these are not all geeks. (I still haven’t see compilers in coffee, except mine.)

    But if you look for workers, migrate your compagny here, we have talented geeks. :)

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  • Anonymous

    Smoking in public indoor spaces (including restaurants and bars) is banned in NYC, Boston, and New Jersey (except in casinos), with pending bans in Philly and DC. That’s a whole heck of a lot of the East Coast that’s as smoke free as Cali. I salute the Golden state for leading the way, but we’re catching up.

    Someone should do a a Google Map of non-smoker friendly states and municipalities if they haven’t already. And maybe countries while they’re at it.

  • http://jonnygoldstein.com jonny goldstein

    Smoking in public indoor spaces (including restaurants and bars) is banned in NYC, Boston, and New Jersey (except in casinos), with pending bans in Philly and DC. That’s a whole heck of a lot of the East Coast that’s as smoke free as Cali. I salute the Golden state for leading the way, but we’re catching up.

    Someone should do a a Google Map of non-smoker friendly states and municipalities if they haven’t already. And maybe countries while they’re at it.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com/ Richard Brownell

    Ironic that the same geeks/companies who are supposedly trying to connect the world and enrich people’s lives with technology go on and on about how important it is for them to all be located in one exclusive better-than-everywhere-else place.

  • http://www.richbrownell.com Richard Brownell

    Ironic that the same geeks/companies who are supposedly trying to connect the world and enrich people’s lives with technology go on and on about how important it is for them to all be located in one exclusive better-than-everywhere-else place.

  • George Pratt

    Hi Robert, I’m a new reader and this is the first time I’ve been motivated to comment. I’ve lived and worked in Ireland my entire life. and before our nanny state banned Smoking in all public, enclosed spaces I would have been very much in conflict with you about the smoking issue.

    I believed it was a question of freedom of choice and a civil liberty. And up until I recently traveled in europe I still believed that. I have to say having lived in a smoke free enviroment for a few years it was very strange and unpleasant. to have that forced upon me.

    That said, I don’t understand what that has to do with where geeks live and work and I certainly wouldn’t try to say that’s why they gravitate toward the valley and redmond. Might have more to do with the fact that it’s where the industry began? or the fact that bandwith is a fraction of the price it is in europe, etc. you know real viable business reasons ;)

    As for there not being a geek culture in europe, I have to disagree I’m a geek dating a geek and almost all my friends are geeks, the reasons you don’t see us with our laptops out in public are fairly straight forward for the irish anyway, 1. it rains a lot, laptops don’t like rain 2. there is very little publicly available wireless internet access and what there is very expensive 3. it rains alot 4. we don’t have to many cafe’s that people socilise in that tends to be done in pubs, trying getting Guinness out of yer laptop :) oh and did I mention it rains a lot ;)

  • George Pratt

    Hi Robert, I’m a new reader and this is the first time I’ve been motivated to comment. I’ve lived and worked in Ireland my entire life. and before our nanny state banned Smoking in all public, enclosed spaces I would have been very much in conflict with you about the smoking issue.

    I believed it was a question of freedom of choice and a civil liberty. And up until I recently traveled in europe I still believed that. I have to say having lived in a smoke free enviroment for a few years it was very strange and unpleasant. to have that forced upon me.

    That said, I don’t understand what that has to do with where geeks live and work and I certainly wouldn’t try to say that’s why they gravitate toward the valley and redmond. Might have more to do with the fact that it’s where the industry began? or the fact that bandwith is a fraction of the price it is in europe, etc. you know real viable business reasons ;)

    As for there not being a geek culture in europe, I have to disagree I’m a geek dating a geek and almost all my friends are geeks, the reasons you don’t see us with our laptops out in public are fairly straight forward for the irish anyway, 1. it rains a lot, laptops don’t like rain 2. there is very little publicly available wireless internet access and what there is very expensive 3. it rains alot 4. we don’t have to many cafe’s that people socilise in that tends to be done in pubs, trying getting Guinness out of yer laptop :) oh and did I mention it rains a lot ;)

  • Tim Courtney

    While I doubt smoking is the link here, I’ll wholeheartedly agree smoking needs to be banned in public.

    I live in Illinois, where things are moving slowly towards a smoking ban. Chicago passed one that’ll be in effect in 2008, and the suburbs are now passing their own.

    If I move anywhere, it’ll be to a non-smoking state, like California.

    Besides, there’s an appropriate time and place for smoking. At 3:00 AM in a dank basement. sheesh. :P

  • Tim Courtney

    While I doubt smoking is the link here, I’ll wholeheartedly agree smoking needs to be banned in public.

    I live in Illinois, where things are moving slowly towards a smoking ban. Chicago passed one that’ll be in effect in 2008, and the suburbs are now passing their own.

    If I move anywhere, it’ll be to a non-smoking state, like California.

    Besides, there’s an appropriate time and place for smoking. At 3:00 AM in a dank basement. sheesh. :P

  • http://jonquil.livejournal.com/ Jonquil

    When I moved here from North Carolina, I reflexively told a restaurant hostess ,”Four, non-smoking, please.” She smiled and said “Dear, you’re in California.”

    It took me twenty years of resistance before I moved to Silly Valley. It isn’t just the computer culture that keeps me here, it’s the overall culture. I’ve seen more plays in the last two years than in the previous ten; I go to a farmer’s market weekly, and to arts and wine festivals all summer. Hic! I can’t imagine moving away (as long as I can afford the mortgage…)

  • http://jonquil.livejournal.com Jonquil

    When I moved here from North Carolina, I reflexively told a restaurant hostess ,”Four, non-smoking, please.” She smiled and said “Dear, you’re in California.”

    It took me twenty years of resistance before I moved to Silly Valley. It isn’t just the computer culture that keeps me here, it’s the overall culture. I’ve seen more plays in the last two years than in the previous ten; I go to a farmer’s market weekly, and to arts and wine festivals all summer. Hic! I can’t imagine moving away (as long as I can afford the mortgage…)

  • http://staticground.blogspot.com/ Phil

    I totally agree with 52.

    As far as the smoking goes, it is just something to be expected in europe, although most of the places that I went in London I didn’t see anyone smoking (except pubs). Correlating smoking laws with the density of geeks is rather lame.

    As far as getting a job outside of the valley, remember a few years back? Then it was easier to find a job NOT in the valley, so I don’t think that it is necessarily harder to find a job outside of the valley. Now, the number of high tech companies that are in any region is probably smaller than the number of companies in the valley, and if you stay around metro areas you can have a better chance (Raleigh-Durham, Austin, Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago, New York, Boston, Atlanta, etc…). This is also an industry where your physical location doesn’t really matter…

    I’m a geek that lives in the bay area, and I do tend to meet alot of people in software, and it can be nice to talk about business, but for the most part, I think that surrounding yourself with geeks tends to dilute your creative capacities. Meaning that you can tell how large groups of geeks that work together, that they actually start forming a group mentatlity and they tend to stop innovating. The valley is a little different in that there are a lot of voices to be heard, but I can definitely see some patterns of people losing their creativity to hive thinking…

  • http://staticground.blogspot.com Phil

    I totally agree with 52.

    As far as the smoking goes, it is just something to be expected in europe, although most of the places that I went in London I didn’t see anyone smoking (except pubs). Correlating smoking laws with the density of geeks is rather lame.

    As far as getting a job outside of the valley, remember a few years back? Then it was easier to find a job NOT in the valley, so I don’t think that it is necessarily harder to find a job outside of the valley. Now, the number of high tech companies that are in any region is probably smaller than the number of companies in the valley, and if you stay around metro areas you can have a better chance (Raleigh-Durham, Austin, Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago, New York, Boston, Atlanta, etc…). This is also an industry where your physical location doesn’t really matter…

    I’m a geek that lives in the bay area, and I do tend to meet alot of people in software, and it can be nice to talk about business, but for the most part, I think that surrounding yourself with geeks tends to dilute your creative capacities. Meaning that you can tell how large groups of geeks that work together, that they actually start forming a group mentatlity and they tend to stop innovating. The valley is a little different in that there are a lot of voices to be heard, but I can definitely see some patterns of people losing their creativity to hive thinking…

  • Simon

    Got to disagree with a couple of your assertions, Robert.

    “If you’re a geek outside of San Francisco or Redmond, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.”

    If you were talking just about the States, then I would add Manhattan to that little exclusive list. If you’re smart and you can code then, JP Morgan etc, are going to hire you.

    If “outside of SF or Redmond” is a reference to the rest of the planet then, absolutely, completely, 100% disagree. There are lots of places in the world where developers and techs can get a job and beaver away with other like minded folk in the software industry.

    I work in London in the financial sector, and I promise you that if you can code and deliver you’ll get a job. I worked in one large financial institution where every damn piece of software apart from the OS (Windows) and the database (Sql Server, Oracle) was written from the ground up. Trading systems, risk systems, P&L, confirms, everything. Development teams worked on a giant open plan floor the size of a 1.5 football pitches. 1 in 3 people in the building were Tech. Off the shelf packages were just too generic and the users wanted real control of the development cycle.

    On the smoking generalisation. Well, if I was eating a good meal in a good French restaurant and people were smoking next door to me. Damn, I’d be v.annoyed too. But I would argue that every square inch of Europe is not like this. Situation would not have happened in an equivalent London restaurant, right now it will happen for sure in a London bar. And that’s all changing for London next summer.

    To finish, I’ll make a sweeping generalisation about the US. Terrible food, you can’t get a high quality dinner in the states. I’ve never had good food in the states, despite visiting several times. So it must be true.

  • Simon

    Got to disagree with a couple of your assertions, Robert.

    “If you’re a geek outside of San Francisco or Redmond, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.”

    If you were talking just about the States, then I would add Manhattan to that little exclusive list. If you’re smart and you can code then, JP Morgan etc, are going to hire you.

    If “outside of SF or Redmond” is a reference to the rest of the planet then, absolutely, completely, 100% disagree. There are lots of places in the world where developers and techs can get a job and beaver away with other like minded folk in the software industry.

    I work in London in the financial sector, and I promise you that if you can code and deliver you’ll get a job. I worked in one large financial institution where every damn piece of software apart from the OS (Windows) and the database (Sql Server, Oracle) was written from the ground up. Trading systems, risk systems, P&L, confirms, everything. Development teams worked on a giant open plan floor the size of a 1.5 football pitches. 1 in 3 people in the building were Tech. Off the shelf packages were just too generic and the users wanted real control of the development cycle.

    On the smoking generalisation. Well, if I was eating a good meal in a good French restaurant and people were smoking next door to me. Damn, I’d be v.annoyed too. But I would argue that every square inch of Europe is not like this. Situation would not have happened in an equivalent London restaurant, right now it will happen for sure in a London bar. And that’s all changing for London next summer.

    To finish, I’ll make a sweeping generalisation about the US. Terrible food, you can’t get a high quality dinner in the states. I’ve never had good food in the states, despite visiting several times. So it must be true.

  • http://podcast.com/ Kosso

    I smoke. I shouldn’t. It’s bad for you. And those around you.

    I am a Geek. I am European.

    Think the WestCoast USA should look out in the mobile space. We have had ‘smart’ phones in our pockets for ALOT longer. Devloping apps and systems. Thinking inside and out of the pocket – not just the box. We’ve been SMS TXTing for as long as I can remember.

    I agree what you say about Europe and smoking – there’s alot more of it here.

    I’m amazed phones over here don’t come with a lighter built in ;)

    But that wouldn’t be too ‘smart’ eh ? ;)

    Hmmm… where’s my patent attourney?

  • http://podcast.com Kosso

    I smoke. I shouldn’t. It’s bad for you. And those around you.

    I am a Geek. I am European.

    Think the WestCoast USA should look out in the mobile space. We have had ‘smart’ phones in our pockets for ALOT longer. Devloping apps and systems. Thinking inside and out of the pocket – not just the box. We’ve been SMS TXTing for as long as I can remember.

    I agree what you say about Europe and smoking – there’s alot more of it here.

    I’m amazed phones over here don’t come with a lighter built in ;)

    But that wouldn’t be too ‘smart’ eh ? ;)

    Hmmm… where’s my patent attourney?

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    Simon, I have to take issue with your point:

    “I work in London in the financial sector, and I promise you that if you can code and deliver you’ll get a job.”

    I have been a developer for 20 years and have a track record as long as a long thing… and currently I can’t get any interest at all in London… What I don’t have is experience working in financial institutions in London, and that seems to be the problem.

    Recruitment for tech is messed up over here; I’m writing an article about it at the moment. Once your in your in, but it can be damned hard breaking down the doors to get in.

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    Simon, I have to take issue with your point:

    “I work in London in the financial sector, and I promise you that if you can code and deliver you’ll get a job.”

    I have been a developer for 20 years and have a track record as long as a long thing… and currently I can’t get any interest at all in London… What I don’t have is experience working in financial institutions in London, and that seems to be the problem.

    Recruitment for tech is messed up over here; I’m writing an article about it at the moment. Once your in your in, but it can be damned hard breaking down the doors to get in.

  • http://marcd.spaces.msn.com/ Marc Dencker

    Robert,

    this must be one of your worst posts ever….

    RE smoking: I am dutch but have been living in the USA on/off the last 9 years.I have never smoked (not even the good stuff ;-) I agree that after living in a smoke free country makes you realize that smoking smells but I have to agree that americans are a bit intolerant to smokers or whatever they deem the norm.

    more importantantly I saw the title of your post and thougth this might be a good topic and then I got utterly disappointed when you went down the smoking drain. (I guess the cool-aid starts to get out of your system)

    I think it is a real issue for Europe to keep tech in europe. Even more so it is an issue for Americans to not let this evolve into a Europe what “is open source” and a USA that is “commercial” (what ever the exact definitions of both are)

    It seems that with the EU/MSFT and France/iTunes-Google issues it starts to become more of a religious trade-war than competition on merits. This is sad and bad for everybody in the long run.

    A lot of europeans move to the USA for careers in software I have seen it at MS but also at other companies. SAP is one of the very few software companies that is european based. It is the concentration of software companie that attracts engineers as it gives them options to move arround for careers.

  • http://marcd.spaces.msn.com Marc Dencker

    Robert,

    this must be one of your worst posts ever….

    RE smoking: I am dutch but have been living in the USA on/off the last 9 years.I have never smoked (not even the good stuff ;-) I agree that after living in a smoke free country makes you realize that smoking smells but I have to agree that americans are a bit intolerant to smokers or whatever they deem the norm.

    more importantantly I saw the title of your post and thougth this might be a good topic and then I got utterly disappointed when you went down the smoking drain. (I guess the cool-aid starts to get out of your system)

    I think it is a real issue for Europe to keep tech in europe. Even more so it is an issue for Americans to not let this evolve into a Europe what “is open source” and a USA that is “commercial” (what ever the exact definitions of both are)

    It seems that with the EU/MSFT and France/iTunes-Google issues it starts to become more of a religious trade-war than competition on merits. This is sad and bad for everybody in the long run.

    A lot of europeans move to the USA for careers in software I have seen it at MS but also at other companies. SAP is one of the very few software companies that is european based. It is the concentration of software companie that attracts engineers as it gives them options to move arround for careers.

  • Simon

    Chris,

    hmm … I’m not going to win that argument till I find you a job.

  • Simon

    Chris,

    hmm … I’m not going to win that argument till I find you a job.

  • Christopher Coulter

    So? Lots of industries have hubs or epicenters…just think in terms of airline hubs.

    If you’re a Film or Screenwriterish type outside of LA (or increasingly Vancover), it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a magazineish media-bistro type outside of NYC (or increasingly Miami), it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a national Lobbyist type outside of Wash DC, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a national Military contractor type outside of Pentagon City, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    And so on and so forth…don’t go Insider Valley Smug Elite…you want the widest possible audiences for thy podcasts…

    Agree on the smoking issue tho…Sac and San Fran so breathe easy…

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    Simon… :)

  • http://www.icemark.com/blog Chris Wild

    Simon… :)

  • Christopher Coulter

    So? Lots of industries have hubs or epicenters…just think in terms of airline hubs.

    If you’re a Film or Screenwriterish type outside of LA (or increasingly Vancover), it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a magazineish media-bistro type outside of NYC (or increasingly Miami), it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a national Lobbyist type outside of Wash DC, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    If you’re a national Military contractor type outside of Pentagon City, it’s hard to get a job in the industry.

    And so on and so forth…don’t go Insider Valley Smug Elite…you want the widest possible audiences for thy podcasts…

    Agree on the smoking issue tho…Sac and San Fran so breathe easy…

  • http://taotakashi.wordpress.com/ Tao Takashi

    Isn’t the issue more that in Silicon Valley you have such a concentration of tech companies around which naturally attract the geeks? It’s true that you hardly see anybody here with a laptop in a cafe (esp. in my place) but how is it actually outside Silicon Valley (never been to the US yet) or the bigger cities?

    For me it’s actually hard to meet geeks in my area esp. in the field of blogging or similar things. So sometimes I have the feeling that I am living in the wrong spot but in the end it still has it advantages ;-) What I actually do for meeting geeks now is to go inside Second Life and they are hanging around there everywhere ;-)
    (actually London might be a good place for geeky stuff but there I dislike the cameras-everywhere thing ;-)

    I actually doubt that it has anything to do with smoking. I dislike it when people smoke next to me but well, we’re used to it (and I even did DJ for years and this is nothing where you really avoid smoking people).

    It’s probably also more a general cultural thing that you don’t have the maker-feel around and there might also be missing incentives to do a startup and just try things (you know, you might fail…).

    Regarding laptops in cafe’s: Somehow (at least in my town) people are very reluctant to install e.g. wifi for various silly reasons.. Chains like Starbucks have it but for a far too high fee (plus I dislike their coffee but that’s another story :-)

  • http://taotakashi.wordpress.com Tao Takashi

    Isn’t the issue more that in Silicon Valley you have such a concentration of tech companies around which naturally attract the geeks? It’s true that you hardly see anybody here with a laptop in a cafe (esp. in my place) but how is it actually outside Silicon Valley (never been to the US yet) or the bigger cities?

    For me it’s actually hard to meet geeks in my area esp. in the field of blogging or similar things. So sometimes I have the feeling that I am living in the wrong spot but in the end it still has it advantages ;-) What I actually do for meeting geeks now is to go inside Second Life and they are hanging around there everywhere ;-)
    (actually London might be a good place for geeky stuff but there I dislike the cameras-everywhere thing ;-)

    I actually doubt that it has anything to do with smoking. I dislike it when people smoke next to me but well, we’re used to it (and I even did DJ for years and this is nothing where you really avoid smoking people).

    It’s probably also more a general cultural thing that you don’t have the maker-feel around and there might also be missing incentives to do a startup and just try things (you know, you might fail…).

    Regarding laptops in cafe’s: Somehow (at least in my town) people are very reluctant to install e.g. wifi for various silly reasons.. Chains like Starbucks have it but for a far too high fee (plus I dislike their coffee but that’s another story :-)

  • http://www.jbidwatcher.com/ – Morgan Schweers, CyberFOX!

    Greetings,
    Mmmm…tasty long comment. :)

    I live in Issaquah, not too far from Redmond/Seattle where smoking was legal for a long time (it only changed sometime between 1997 and 2000, iirc). There’s still a smoker-culture here, and it’s most visible, nasty, ugly side-effect. Spitting.

    I don’t like smoke, but I can deal with it in moderation. I find spitting a truly nasty habit, and the preponderance of having to avoid little nasty puddles correlates strongly with the number of people smoking in an area. It’s been getting better in a lot of places in the Seattle/Eastside metroplex, but I work in Pioneer Square right now, where LOTS of people still smoke, and it’s a minefield getting in to work.

    Sorry, was venting.

    I used to live in Silicon Valley. I love it there, it’s a wonderful place. Work is plentiful for someone with my skills, and the geek culture is all-encompassing, comfortable, and pleasant. I’ve had recruiters overhear my friends and I talking tech at a restaurant, and come over and politely leave their business card for ‘any of you that might be looking for a new job’.

    I gave that up, and moved to Washington, because I can’t live where ‘brown is the new green’ anymore. I can’t live with having to have my car’s air on ‘recycle’ all the time because the outside air stinks. You need some clouds to have a proper sunset… I missed sunsets, snow, and seasons. I want to have children, and I can’t accept what California has to offer for education. I wanted to buy a house, for my wife, and future children to live in, and I can’t afford what California has to offer for housing. Oh, and the California Franchise Tax Board is going to eat a lot of that raise you got yourself…

    Despite all that, I often miss Silicon Valley; being surrounded by the warm embrace of the pervasive maker mindset is truly addicting, and almost inexplicable to people who haven’t spent a lot of time there.

    Still, to each their own, and for me I’ve found a better place for myself up here, in the emerald hills that you’ve abandoned. :) There’s a good bit of that mindset that’s rubbed off up here, if you frequent the right places. Enough to ease the itch, and keep me excited. Add it to the overwhelmingly better surroundings, and it’s a Good Place.

    I don’t think smoking/non-smoking is the answer. I think surrounding yourself with people who love what they’re doing is the answer. It brings more people who want to be part of that, and it builds a cycle. People talk about it, others want to see what it’s like, they come, they visit, they realize how nice it feels to be surrounded by smart people, and how it ups your own game so you can feel like you’re also part of the smart culture. Silicon Valley’s been doing that for decades now, reinventing itself with every major revolution. Chips begat hardware begat software begat the internet begat content providers, with many interesting offshoots along the way.

    Who knows what’s next; but the people in Silicon Valley want to build things (maker mindset), and they love new things (neophilia). These two attributes mean that whatever the next step is, there’ll at least be someone in SV working on it with a passion.

  • http://www.jbidwatcher.com – Morgan Schweers, CyberFOX!

    Greetings,
    Mmmm…tasty long comment. :)

    I live in Issaquah, not too far from Redmond/Seattle where smoking was legal for a long time (it only changed sometime between 1997 and 2000, iirc). There’s still a smoker-culture here, and it’s most visible, nasty, ugly side-effect. Spitting.

    I don’t like smoke, but I can deal with it in moderation. I find spitting a truly nasty habit, and the preponderance of having to avoid little nasty puddles correlates strongly with the number of people smoking in an area. It’s been getting better in a lot of places in the Seattle/Eastside metroplex, but I work in Pioneer Square right now, where LOTS of people still smoke, and it’s a minefield getting in to work.

    Sorry, was venting.

    I used to live in Silicon Valley. I love it there, it’s a wonderful place. Work is plentiful for someone with my skills, and the geek culture is all-encompassing, comfortable, and pleasant. I’ve had recruiters overhear my friends and I talking tech at a restaurant, and come over and politely leave their business card for ‘any of you that might be looking for a new job’.

    I gave that up, and moved to Washington, because I can’t live where ‘brown is the new green’ anymore. I can’t live with having to have my car’s air on ‘recycle’ all the time because the outside air stinks. You need some clouds to have a proper sunset… I missed sunsets, snow, and seasons. I want to have children, and I can’t accept what California has to offer for education. I wanted to buy a house, for my wife, and future children to live in, and I can’t afford what California has to offer for housing. Oh, and the California Franchise Tax Board is going to eat a lot of that raise you got yourself…

    Despite all that, I often miss Silicon Valley; being surrounded by the warm embrace of the pervasive maker mindset is truly addicting, and almost inexplicable to people who haven’t spent a lot of time there.

    Still, to each their own, and for me I’ve found a better place for myself up here, in the emerald hills that you’ve abandoned. :) There’s a good bit of that mindset that’s rubbed off up here, if you frequent the right places. Enough to ease the itch, and keep me excited. Add it to the overwhelmingly better surroundings, and it’s a Good Place.

    I don’t think smoking/non-smoking is the answer. I think surrounding yourself with people who love what they’re doing is the answer. It brings more people who want to be part of that, and it builds a cycle. People talk about it, others want to see what it’s like, they come, they visit, they realize how nice it feels to be surrounded by smart people, and how it ups your own game so you can feel like you’re also part of the smart culture. Silicon Valley’s been doing that for decades now, reinventing itself with every major revolution. Chips begat hardware begat software begat the internet begat content providers, with many interesting offshoots along the way.

    Who knows what’s next; but the people in Silicon Valley want to build things (maker mindset), and they love new things (neophilia). These two attributes mean that whatever the next step is, there’ll at least be someone in SV working on it with a passion.

  • dmad

    @44. You still didn’t answer my question. How do you support your 20% number? Look it’s fine if you say it’s a number you pulled out of your ass. At least it would give you some credibility in that you would be admitting to making it up.

  • dmad

    @44. You still didn’t answer my question. How do you support your 20% number? Look it’s fine if you say it’s a number you pulled out of your ass. At least it would give you some credibility in that you would be admitting to making it up.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Dmad: I counted how many people were smoking at LIFT and Reboot conferences. As a conference planner such minutia interests me. I’d like to do events again someday and knowing the behavior of your audience is important.

    But, they aren’t scientific, so, if you want to say I pulled that out of my ass that’s fine with me.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Dmad: I counted how many people were smoking at LIFT and Reboot conferences. As a conference planner such minutia interests me. I’d like to do events again someday and knowing the behavior of your audience is important.

    But, they aren’t scientific, so, if you want to say I pulled that out of my ass that’s fine with me.

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  • Guest

    I agree 100% about the smoking. I could never live where people can just smoke freely like they do much of Europe. I can’t even stand walking behind or standing behind these people who smoke *outside* while I wait for the train or bus each morning. It’s a disgusting habit. It only take about 10 seconds standing in a puff of someone else’s smoke that I come home and my kids ask why I stink.

  • http://blog.nordquist.org Brett Nordquist

    I agree 100% about the smoking. I could never live where people can just smoke freely like they do much of Europe. I can’t even stand walking behind or standing behind these people who smoke *outside* while I wait for the train or bus each morning. It’s a disgusting habit. It only take about 10 seconds standing in a puff of someone else’s smoke that I come home and my kids ask why I stink.

  • http://www.billbuchan.com/ Wild Bill

    So. “The only place to create technology is Silicon valley”.

    And “all Europeans stink of cigarettes”.

    Once you have rid all Europeans of Smoking, what next ? Banning obesity ? Moustaches ? People who wear toupees ? Masons ? Gays ? Gypsies ? Jews ?

    Right.

    [For those of the hard-of-thinking, this was an argument type where I demonstrated the complete falicy of the proposition by expanding it to comedic proportions. Of course I would never propose any of these things]

    See where ignoring your own constitution gets you ? See where intolerance gets you ? Right into an unhealthy, ugly place. Racism Central.

    So.

    Does *all* technology come from Silicon valley ? Surprisingly not.

    Choose the industrial revolution. Choose the phone. Choose Capitalism (Adam Smith), Physics (Maxwell), the American Constitution (Based on the declaration of Arbroath), the TV, Radio, Radar, the Diesel engine, Penicillin, Prolog, microcode, The Microwave, DNA-Cloning (Dolly the sheep), MRI scanners. Choose the guys in the Alamo.

    (10 bonus points for spotting the film reference)

    Where did they come from ?

    Oh. Scotland. Ever been there ? Its cool.

    (I’ll give you Marconi was an Italian, but he worked in Glasgow).

    Where was the first computer built? The first 10 computers ? Oh. It wasnt the US. It was Bletchey Park in the UK, and it knocked three years off World War 2. It was still secret till the late ’80s’.

    Alan Turin would possibly (for a given value of “true”) turn in his grave listening to your rantings.

    Right. Finished being so quite arrogant and nationalistic/xenophobic yet ?

    Yes – silicon valley has a huge density of geeks & VC’s – hell – a lot of Scots moved there. What do you expect ? But is it the ONLY place to work ?

    Brownouts, drive by shootings, Web v1.0, hugely expensive property, Earthquakes ? Sold it to me already.

    Whats the biggest computer company in the world?

    [ Not "Whats the biggest software company in the world" - thats your ex-employer - who are NOT based in silicon vallley. ]

    The biggest computer company is IBM. And where do they do the majority of their research ?

    All over the world.

    So. Pleeeeeease. I know your excited about moving back to Silicon Valley. To the extent where you seem to think that all Europeans smoke.

    (They banned smoking in all buildings in Scotland this year – and will follow in Englandshire later this year. Holland. Almost gone. Ireland. Gone. Get the idea ? You choose to socialise with folks who blow smoke in your face and you categorise an entire content ?)

    Get a grip.

    I’m just about at the stage where I read this blog out of morbid curiosity.

    —* Bill
    http://www.billbuchan.com

    P.P.S. On the more positive note, I introduced my father – who is 73 – to the iPod and the idea of Podcasting last week.

    He “got it” in about 3 minutes flat and is desperate to record his band and podcast it. Does this (a) prove that Apple UI design is easy and (b) does this make my old man the oldest of the iPod generation? Oh and (c) he’s started blogging. No – he’s not read your book…

    Not bad for an ex trawlerman out of Fraserburgh, eh ?

  • http://www.billbuchan.com Wild Bill

    So. “The only place to create technology is Silicon valley”.

    And “all Europeans stink of cigarettes”.

    Once you have rid all Europeans of Smoking, what next ? Banning obesity ? Moustaches ? People who wear toupees ? Masons ? Gays ? Gypsies ? Jews ?

    Right.

    [For those of the hard-of-thinking, this was an argument type where I demonstrated the complete falicy of the proposition by expanding it to comedic proportions. Of course I would never propose any of these things]

    See where ignoring your own constitution gets you ? See where intolerance gets you ? Right into an unhealthy, ugly place. Racism Central.

    So.

    Does *all* technology come from Silicon valley ? Surprisingly not.

    Choose the industrial revolution. Choose the phone. Choose Capitalism (Adam Smith), Physics (Maxwell), the American Constitution (Based on the declaration of Arbroath), the TV, Radio, Radar, the Diesel engine, Penicillin, Prolog, microcode, The Microwave, DNA-Cloning (Dolly the sheep), MRI scanners. Choose the guys in the Alamo.

    (10 bonus points for spotting the film reference)

    Where did they come from ?

    Oh. Scotland. Ever been there ? Its cool.

    (I’ll give you Marconi was an Italian, but he worked in Glasgow).

    Where was the first computer built? The first 10 computers ? Oh. It wasnt the US. It was Bletchey Park in the UK, and it knocked three years off World War 2. It was still secret till the late ’80s’.

    Alan Turin would possibly (for a given value of “true”) turn in his grave listening to your rantings.

    Right. Finished being so quite arrogant and nationalistic/xenophobic yet ?

    Yes – silicon valley has a huge density of geeks & VC’s – hell – a lot of Scots moved there. What do you expect ? But is it the ONLY place to work ?

    Brownouts, drive by shootings, Web v1.0, hugely expensive property, Earthquakes ? Sold it to me already.

    Whats the biggest computer company in the world?

    [ Not "Whats the biggest software company in the world" - thats your ex-employer - who are NOT based in silicon vallley. ]

    The biggest computer company is IBM. And where do they do the majority of their research ?

    All over the world.

    So. Pleeeeeease. I know your excited about moving back to Silicon Valley. To the extent where you seem to think that all Europeans smoke.

    (They banned smoking in all buildings in Scotland this year – and will follow in Englandshire later this year. Holland. Almost gone. Ireland. Gone. Get the idea ? You choose to socialise with folks who blow smoke in your face and you categorise an entire content ?)

    Get a grip.

    I’m just about at the stage where I read this blog out of morbid curiosity.

    —* Bill
    http://www.billbuchan.com

    P.P.S. On the more positive note, I introduced my father – who is 73 – to the iPod and the idea of Podcasting last week.

    He “got it” in about 3 minutes flat and is desperate to record his band and podcast it. Does this (a) prove that Apple UI design is easy and (b) does this make my old man the oldest of the iPod generation? Oh and (c) he’s started blogging. No – he’s not read your book…

    Not bad for an ex trawlerman out of Fraserburgh, eh ?

  • Simon

    Since Bill is rolling out the big guns…

    I’ll join him and roll out another one. HTML, WWW & Tim Berners-Lee.

    http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html

    WWW would not have happened in Silicon Valley.

  • Simon

    Since Bill is rolling out the big guns…

    I’ll join him and roll out another one. HTML, WWW & Tim Berners-Lee.

    http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html

    WWW would not have happened in Silicon Valley.

  • Mark Marchall

    You do know that Europe has a population of over 700 million in over 50 countries, right? I think you should be a bit careful with making general statements about the European culture. It is quite diverse.

    There are countries in Europe that have _very_ strict bans on smoking, others that are more liberal. There are countries in Europe with a lower percentage of smokers than the U.S., and there are countries with a higher percentage. But you really shouldn’t draw on your personal experience from a few countries to the whole continent.

  • Mark Marchall

    You do know that Europe has a population of over 700 million in over 50 countries, right? I think you should be a bit careful with making general statements about the European culture. It is quite diverse.

    There are countries in Europe that have _very_ strict bans on smoking, others that are more liberal. There are countries in Europe with a lower percentage of smokers than the U.S., and there are countries with a higher percentage. But you really shouldn’t draw on your personal experience from a few countries to the whole continent.

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