Post-Second-Life-ban interview with Beth Goza

by on July 7, 2006

Here’s the Gnomedex interview with Beth Goza and a variety of others (there were about six people standing together in the hall when I interviewed Beth Goza). Keep in mind that this interview happened minutes after I learned that we were gonna be banned from Second Life for letting my 12-year-old son use it on stage at Gnomedex. Beth Goza is “enthusiasm dispenser” for Linden Lab, which makes Second Life.

This picture is of my son doing the dirty deed.

Update: Beth Goza just called me and told me that I haven’t been banned officially yet. She said Linden Lab still hasn’t decided what to do with my account. She also asked me to explain why I was making this an issue. I told her: because I want to work in Second Life with my son and right now that’s impossible because even if he were 13 I am not allowed in the teen grid and he’s not allowed in my grid. And, if he builds something cool, or I build something cool, we can’t share items between the two worlds.

Could I have emailed her, yes. But I’m a public person and I talk about issues that are of interest to all of us. Is it a messy process, yes. Have I given one side of the issue? Yes. (I tried to give Beth’s side in the podcast, though, and would be happy to link to Linden Labs’ blog where they talk about it from their side).

Would I encourage parents with kids to let them run around Second Life. No. There’s way too much sex and adult behavior and it’s too easy for a kid to pretend he or she is an adult and get into situations that they would not be prepared for. It’d be like dropping Patrick into Las Vegas or New York and letting him walk around by himself.

Also, I was explicitly breaking the rules and accept the consequences.

I apologize to Beth because I’m putting her in a very tough place. If she doesn’t enforce the rules with me, then Second Life has a mess on its hands as more kids get thrown in. How many parents know that explicit sexual acts and gambling take place there? I doubt many who aren’t in the geek world know.

  • mp
    Actually this isn't of interest to all of us. And yes, it does seem like you want special treatment because you're internet famous.
  • Scott Frazer
    I guess I just don't "get" second life. It really seems like a giant ponzi scheme to me.

    The only things there are to do inside are create things, which you then try to sell, buy things to make your "home" cooler so more people will visit you, thus creating more revenue for you, or text chat while watching your avatar perform inane dances.

    What am I missing?
  • No, it looks more like he wants to be treated like a competent parent who is involved with his child's upbringing.
  • Aaron
    Robert,

    I also don't get Second Life. Yes it is cool to build things in a virtual world. It's been done before on smaller scales. The thing is, the internet is already a virtual world where you can build stuff, be someone else, sell things, be an avatar in some places, etc. So you are going from the real world, to the internet, to a fake real world. So is someone going to build the internet in second life also? :)

    I think the ban is foolish Linden Labs, you've given them free extra publicity. You were with Patrick while he was doing it, at least when they were watching, that absolves them of any liability. As long as they warn on their site and require you to say you are 18 that should be it.

    BTW How long are you still in town?
  • Guy
    Sorry Scoble, but I'm not with you on this one. You're making a whole case about breaking rules and accepting consequences, but the tone of your posts on the subject reflect that you basically want Second Life changed so you can continue to play with your son. Accepting the consequences doesn't have to mean repenting your sins and pledging your unending loyalty to Linden Labs, but what you're doing is more like "undergoing the consequences and complaining about it until they see it my way".

    I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'd have preferred it if you'd have come out and said "I don't like this rule, here's why it doesn't work, this is what we should do to change it." instead of simply breaking the rule, forcing the developers to 'punish' you and then complaining that the rule forced you to do it - and thus should be changed.
  • Guy, good point. I should have handled it that way. I was irresponsible here and did take advantage of my position.
  • Scott, I like Second Life because I can experience worlds built buy other people. Some of these worlds are quite detailed like the island that even has bugs flying around.

    I was drawn in by Eric Rice who is building a conference center and music company in Second Life. These are experiences that are changing what I will expect in the future.

    Yes, a lot of it isn't very good right now. There aren't many people in most areas. There's too much sex and stuff (and in unpredictable places). The law there hasn't yet been worked out which is why they just say "no kids."

    Hey, if you live in Hamburg, Germany, there's a red light district there. But kids live and play alone a few blocks away.

    There's a new society being built in Second Life and other virtual worlds and it's very interesting to participate in.

    And, yes, the business model IS interesting to me. Why? Because that'll encourage people to build experiences that'll draw people back in.

    I'm not too worried about whether people get it or not, though. I see possibilities for entertainment, commerce, friendship, education, and more.
  • Aaron, I'll be in Seattle until Monday.
  • Hi, don't let me interrupt but it's "Linden Lab" singular. It's a common misspelling, perhaps holding hopes of the future so I look at it as positively as possible. =^_^=

    Interesting business model: Nakama, a region where just about everything, including the buildings and pool water, is for sale. Also surprising because it's all-anime and even has a tentacle monster, and it *is* a Mature sim, but there's no hentai. Context: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2006/07/protagonist_of...
  • Oh, sorry Torley!
  • Christopher Coulter
    They can't find a technical solution for a 'family area' or a 'sibling' area?

    But giant ponzi scheme is def. the modus operandi, heavy-handed on predatory issues, yet hands-off approach in regards to fraud and the members 'money-temple-scheming'. Least we have something in common now, both 'hated' by Beth Goza. ;)

    SL is just Sims done WOWish.
  • I've just started wandering around in Second Life (at 7 fps on a vastly underpowered laptop for this sort of thing, but I *am* there.)
    I went on a tour of Nakama a few days ago with some folks from Penny Arcade. I'm just blown away at how huge it is. The size of the sim is insane. If ever there was a LEGO based mmo, this is probably it.
    It's pretty freaking amazing, even if most of it looks like jerky boxes to my poor graphics card.
  • So, they should probably have a way to mark areas as "not kid-safe", either by the makers or by people going by. Then it shouldn't be very difficult to forbid access to those places to "underage avatars".

    Of course, this opens the door to all sorts of nasty censorship abuse. Maybe being pretty specific about the "flags" areas are marked with, and then letting parents be specific about what is allowed for their kid or not could work -- for SL-litterate parents.
  • I like your "dropping Patrick off in Las Vegas" analogy - in fact, I think it hints at the solution.

    Would you drop him off alone in Las Vegas? Of course not. But, would you take the whole family on a trip to Las Vegas? Quite possibly!

    So, how do you *Ensure* that parental oversight and thus allow Patrick access to the adult grid, and thus also allow you two to collaborate? That's the problem Linden Labs can solve, because then they can have a 3rd access mode - teens only, adults only, and teen (adult supervised).

    The problem, of course, is that the people who'd try to abuse the 3rd method (adult troublemakers trying to get into the teen grid; and teens trying to get into the adult grid) must *vastly* outnumber the ClanScobles of the world, who have specific situations that don't fit into the current model, but are nevertheless trying to Do The Right Thing For The Kids.

    Maybe, for now, they just need a way to move items between the grids (at least teen->adult; I'm not sure what the risk is in doing that?), perhaps with a moderation/approval step in either or both directions. That would allow the "item" collaboration without the more general "environmental corruption".
  • Aznavour Wolfe
    Well, Linden Lab already has PG areas set up, and they usually act on reports of mature content in those areas.

    Ironically, the PG areas are typically for adult users who get tired of having mature content shoved in their faces, and have nothing whatsoever to do with "parents".

    But Linden Lab's greatest fear, I believe, is not about mature content, but about users of that content. Imagine the following scenario: a teenager somehow gets on the main grid, meets an adult, lies about his (or her) age. The two slope off into a skybox with poseballs. Teen's mother wanders into the room and her jaw hits the floor. Lawsuit incoming.

    Or consider this other possibility: Linden Lab implements "access with parental guidance". Sexual predator (SL user) comes across the MySpace page of teen SL user. Predator e-mails teen, offers to pose as teen's parent in exchange for something relatively innocuous (L$ maybe), brings teen onto the main grid and begins to strike up a "friendship" with him/her. The rest is left as an exercise for the reader.

    One high-profile case of this type could produce enough bad press to sink SL for good, which is why LL has up till recently been justifiably paranoid (and why the whole removal of age-verification is pretty damn bogus).

    My guess is that their best shot at doing a "family verification" thing is to allow teens to register only as supplementary members under their parent's credit card, and prevent those supplementary members from accessing any MG sim unless the parent is in that sim or was there up to 10 minutes ago. (Disclaimer: there are probably flaws to this approach too!)
  • The TOS were acknowldged and accepted. There is a reason kids are not allowed on the main grid. We can protect our kids to a certain degree but not completly on the main grid. Reguardless if we choose to break the rules we should expect to be punished. Or is that not something you also wish to teach your child.

    Cat
  • Khannea Suntzu
    I get SL *real good*. It's insanely entertaining, but then again my guesstimate is it attracts a sizeable demographic of people with "issues" and/or a strong sexdrive. If you take the ramshackle interface in stride you might find it's great fun. It was and is for me, every day ... but then again, I'm a perv.
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