I still think that small companies are swimming upstream here. If I was a normal user, not a geek, why would I use anything that didn’t come from Yahoo, Google, or Microsoft?
I just wouldn’t trust that it’ll stick around for very long.
Gaining trust for a small company is going to be very hard.
That said, the new version of Zoho Writer is very nice.
What do you think? Does Zoho have a chance now that Google has started coming into the Web Office market?
“Aaron, I’m not even sure about that. After all, I’m already a Gmail user, I’m playing with Calendar and soon will get locked into that, so I’ll probably stick with Google’s word processor even if it has a few less features than others.
It’s why Microsoft Office ended up kicking ass over the other competitors. ”
Oh my. Scoble, I’m starting to agree with you more and more. One of us is changing
Incumbency is a big advantage, and for the use that MOST people make of computers, it is the ONLY advantage.
That is why I poo-pooed the idea that 2005 was “the year of Linux on the desktop” (ditto for 2004, 2003, 2002, …)
But resentments DO build up when a vendor consistently fails to deliver things users want (or consistently delivers things that users DON’T want). I was probably one of the first few thousand people to sign up for a Yahoo account, and only a few years later did I learn that with a Yahoo ID I got free e-mail (either that or I had just forgotten about it). The web interface seemed pretty slick at first. You could also download messages with a standard POP program, and I think at one point they were giving away 15-20 meg of storage which at the time seemed enormous.
I was so sold on the Yahoo brand that I got a Yahoo pager, hosted domains with them, and switched to using them as my ISP when I was still on dial-up. But it wasn’t Google that got me to switch, it was Yahoo…
They changed the rules on e-mail storage so that you suddenly got much less space unless you wanted to pay for an account. The Yahoo pager, a deal with RIM, was discontinued after only a year, leaving me with a useless device that I had paid several hundred dollars for. Their hosting service as well as their ISP service were also third party deals (as in: the third party does all the work, takes all the risk, Yahoo puts their name on it). The ISP had serious billing problems. They cancelled my account having never sent me a bill. The domains hosting was pretty good, but it seemed that every 6 months or so the third-party company was either changed or the services changed in some dramatic way. The consistency I would have expected with the Yahoo name simply was a myth.
Their initial response to Gmail, which was to start giving away space again, was pathetic. When they went to a Gig, Gmail went to two, and Google made it fairly clear that they would not take second place to any of the majors when it came to giving away Inbox space. Next Yahoo (and Microsoft) promised AJAX based webmail. That was what, almost two years ago? I just got mine working on Hotmail last week. On Yahoo I’m still waiting.
Users (at least this user) have a long memory about being played for suckers by vendors they trust.
I think competition is good, and I wish more users were willing to try alternatives when they do arrise, but the fact is, many users stick with what they have even if it causes them daily grief. They remember how hard it was to learn DOS, then OS/2 then Windows, then Wordperfect and on and on and they have no desire to repeat that learning process unless there is some fundamentally new capability that comes with it. Having your stuff online, all the time is that capability, and I suspect that most users are quite willing to give up Wing-Ding fonts and a lot of other silly stuff to be able to seamlessly share things among he computers they use, with family members, etc. Sooner or later that concept will find its way into the workplace.
We are finally reaching the point where users don’t have to upgrade their PCs every two years just to do ordinary things Let the battleground go back to server space where it belongs (and has belonged for a long time) and let users view their computers as appliances that “just work” no matter what OS they are running. Windows, OS X and Linux all have the equivalent of Notepad (except OS X’s will format Word documents just fine, and I think the all incorporate spellchecking now) and most peoples only use for a database are the back-ends to their Content Management Systems and so forth, maintained and backed-up by people paid to do just that.
I pronounce 2007 as the year of the “who cares desktop”. It’s about time!
“Aaron, I’m not even sure about that. After all, I’m already a Gmail user, I’m playing with Calendar and soon will get locked into that, so I’ll probably stick with Google’s word processor even if it has a few less features than others.
It’s why Microsoft Office ended up kicking ass over the other competitors. ”
Oh my. Scoble, I’m starting to agree with you more and more. One of us is changing
Incumbency is a big advantage, and for the use that MOST people make of computers, it is the ONLY advantage.
That is why I poo-pooed the idea that 2005 was “the year of Linux on the desktop” (ditto for 2004, 2003, 2002, …)
But resentments DO build up when a vendor consistently fails to deliver things users want (or consistently delivers things that users DON’T want). I was probably one of the first few thousand people to sign up for a Yahoo account, and only a few years later did I learn that with a Yahoo ID I got free e-mail (either that or I had just forgotten about it). The web interface seemed pretty slick at first. You could also download messages with a standard POP program, and I think at one point they were giving away 15-20 meg of storage which at the time seemed enormous.
I was so sold on the Yahoo brand that I got a Yahoo pager, hosted domains with them, and switched to using them as my ISP when I was still on dial-up. But it wasn’t Google that got me to switch, it was Yahoo…
They changed the rules on e-mail storage so that you suddenly got much less space unless you wanted to pay for an account. The Yahoo pager, a deal with RIM, was discontinued after only a year, leaving me with a useless device that I had paid several hundred dollars for. Their hosting service as well as their ISP service were also third party deals (as in: the third party does all the work, takes all the risk, Yahoo puts their name on it). The ISP had serious billing problems. They cancelled my account having never sent me a bill. The domains hosting was pretty good, but it seemed that every 6 months or so the third-party company was either changed or the services changed in some dramatic way. The consistency I would have expected with the Yahoo name simply was a myth.
Their initial response to Gmail, which was to start giving away space again, was pathetic. When they went to a Gig, Gmail went to two, and Google made it fairly clear that they would not take second place to any of the majors when it came to giving away Inbox space. Next Yahoo (and Microsoft) promised AJAX based webmail. That was what, almost two years ago? I just got mine working on Hotmail last week. On Yahoo I’m still waiting.
Users (at least this user) have a long memory about being played for suckers by vendors they trust.
I think competition is good, and I wish more users were willing to try alternatives when they do arrise, but the fact is, many users stick with what they have even if it causes them daily grief. They remember how hard it was to learn DOS, then OS/2 then Windows, then Wordperfect and on and on and they have no desire to repeat that learning process unless there is some fundamentally new capability that comes with it. Having your stuff online, all the time is that capability, and I suspect that most users are quite willing to give up Wing-Ding fonts and a lot of other silly stuff to be able to seamlessly share things among he computers they use, with family members, etc. Sooner or later that concept will find its way into the workplace.
We are finally reaching the point where users don’t have to upgrade their PCs every two years just to do ordinary things Let the battleground go back to server space where it belongs (and has belonged for a long time) and let users view their computers as appliances that “just work” no matter what OS they are running. Windows, OS X and Linux all have the equivalent of Notepad (except OS X’s will format Word documents just fine, and I think the all incorporate spellchecking now) and most peoples only use for a database are the back-ends to their Content Management Systems and so forth, maintained and backed-up by people paid to do just that.
I pronounce 2007 as the year of the “who cares desktop”. It’s about time!
Nice to see that a lot of people think the same as I do. There is nothing wrong with being the small guy. There are many small companies that make something sweet and special and thus carve our a living for themselves. Of course I do not expect an ex Microsoft employee to understand that.
Nice to see that a lot of people think the same as I do. There is nothing wrong with being the small guy. There are many small companies that make something sweet and special and thus carve our a living for themselves. Of course I do not expect an ex Microsoft employee to understand that.
I consider myself a normal user, and the only way I’ll ever try a non-Yahoo/MS/Google product is if it has very strong word-of-mouth. This happened when I switched from Firefox to IE a couple years ago. When it comes to word processing, there would have to be many compelling reasons for me to give up MS Word.
I consider myself a normal user, and the only way I’ll ever try a non-Yahoo/MS/Google product is if it has very strong word-of-mouth. This happened when I switched from Firefox to IE a couple years ago. When it comes to word processing, there would have to be many compelling reasons for me to give up MS Word.
Loosely-Coupled Workflows
Back in 1997, I was working to evangelise XML as the data format of the future. One of the common questions I was asked was “where should I use XML”. I explained back then that XML was ideal as a language for describing data in transit between two gr…
Robert, Zoho is not a financially shaky startup that may or may not be around tomorrow. They are part of Adventnet, a company that grew for 10 years organically (no VC’s) from nothing to 500 or so employees and dozens of networking, security…etc. products. That was the “old boring (but moneymaker) product line, and I think they made a smart move to brand all the Office 2.0 stuff as Zoho – fresh, new, fashionable
So I don’t think longevity is an issue with them, which will really be important when we decide to trust them with all our online data, not just newly created documents – they will soon have ZohoDrive. While on the subject, they are the only ones with a complete office suite, including the Excel and PowerPoint replacements. Yes, I know, functionally just a subset, yadayada, but you know what I mean .. for the 90% of us who use 10% of the functionality, it’s good enough:-) Btw, they also have calendar as part of Virtual Office (yes, the Outlook replacement), Creator, a CRM-package, Polls, and I don’t even know what else.
I have not heard of them until half a year or so ago, but they appear to be a formidable force quite bent on being the Web App provider for small businesses and individuals.
Robert, Zoho is not a financially shaky startup that may or may not be around tomorrow. They are part of Adventnet, a company that grew for 10 years organically (no VC’s) from nothing to 500 or so employees and dozens of networking, security…etc. products. That was the “old boring (but moneymaker) product line, and I think they made a smart move to brand all the Office 2.0 stuff as Zoho – fresh, new, fashionable
So I don’t think longevity is an issue with them, which will really be important when we decide to trust them with all our online data, not just newly created documents – they will soon have ZohoDrive. While on the subject, they are the only ones with a complete office suite, including the Excel and PowerPoint replacements. Yes, I know, functionally just a subset, yadayada, but you know what I mean .. for the 90% of us who use 10% of the functionality, it’s good enough:-) Btw, they also have calendar as part of Virtual Office (yes, the Outlook replacement), Creator, a CRM-package, Polls, and I don’t even know what else.
I have not heard of them until half a year or so ago, but they appear to be a formidable force quite bent on being the Web App provider for small businesses and individuals.
On supporting the little guy…
This is a rather long post in direct response to a post by Robert Scoble, a man who I admire, respect, and otherwise think extremely high of. However, I think he\’s doing a great disservice to startups with his post…
I forgot to add, you are right, “Microsoft Office ended up kicking ass” for having all components, but let’s just remember the early years, you had Word and Excel not talking to each other, moving data was a major pain… it was not a Suite, just individual applications. (In fact I used Works back then, it was a hands-down winner for me due to the integration…).
Anyway, that’s exactly the point the Zoho guys have not missed, first delivering all components of a Suite, then integrating them – these will not be point solutions for long.
I forgot to add, you are right, “Microsoft Office ended up kicking ass” for having all components, but let’s just remember the early years, you had Word and Excel not talking to each other, moving data was a major pain… it was not a Suite, just individual applications. (In fact I used Works back then, it was a hands-down winner for me due to the integration…).
Anyway, that’s exactly the point the Zoho guys have not missed, first delivering all components of a Suite, then integrating them – these will not be point solutions for long.
I”m sort of with Zoli on this Robert – Writer isn’t the only trick in the box. There are issues but they’re being addressed aggressively. The business blogging community is giving them input. Seen IT Redux on this – the guys behind that crew are part funded by SAP so they’re no slouches either? Well worth a view. If Zoho gets the integrations right then I’d seriously consider moving from the rag bag of service ‘stuff’ I currently have – which includes Gmail and Writely.
Yes – it is an uphill srtuggle at times getting Office people who haven’t seen anything different to understand the value these services bring but they’re getting there. And at a decent clip.
I”m sort of with Zoli on this Robert – Writer isn’t the only trick in the box. There are issues but they’re being addressed aggressively. The business blogging community is giving them input. Seen IT Redux on this – the guys behind that crew are part funded by SAP so they’re no slouches either? Well worth a view. If Zoho gets the integrations right then I’d seriously consider moving from the rag bag of service ‘stuff’ I currently have – which includes Gmail and Writely.
Yes – it is an uphill srtuggle at times getting Office people who haven’t seen anything different to understand the value these services bring but they’re getting there. And at a decent clip.
I agree with posters 8 (Ryan Walters) and 25 (Simon Phipps). The issues they raise may be the very reasons that allow small players to become big in the future.
With various of their computer systems, and in various ways, the Google, Yahoo and Microsoft guys all go out of their way to try to lock users in. One reason Microsoft got big was because it made it super-easy to *import* data from third party apps, but hard to export it really well. In 2007, this is no longer good enough. My prediction is that the big players of the future will get big by making it easy for people to export their data.
I agree with posters 8 (Ryan Walters) and 25 (Simon Phipps). The issues they raise may be the very reasons that allow small players to become big in the future.
With various of their computer systems, and in various ways, the Google, Yahoo and Microsoft guys all go out of their way to try to lock users in. One reason Microsoft got big was because it made it super-easy to *import* data from third party apps, but hard to export it really well. In 2007, this is no longer good enough. My prediction is that the big players of the future will get big by making it easy for people to export their data.
Cody: you’re a nerd. Hope that helps.
Anyway, let’s let Google settle this one. Search for “Geek Blogger” and I don’t find your name. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=geek+blogger
In fact, search for “geek” and you’ll see I’m #24 & #25. http://www.google.com/search?q=geek&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N
Since Google is now the arbiter of all things cultural my answer is: too bad.
By the way, what an elitist attitude you have! So someone needs to grok Linux just to be a geek? Wonderful. And people say +I’m+ arrogant? Whew!
Cody: you’re a nerd. Hope that helps.
Anyway, let’s let Google settle this one. Search for “Geek Blogger” and I don’t find your name. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=geek+blogger
In fact, search for “geek” and you’ll see I’m #24 & #25. http://www.google.com/search?q=geek&hl=en&lr=&start=20&sa=N
Since Google is now the arbiter of all things cultural my answer is: too bad.
By the way, what an elitist attitude you have! So someone needs to grok Linux just to be a geek? Wonderful. And people say +I’m+ arrogant? Whew!
[...] A few weeks ago I profiled It’s a feature that web-based word processing products should have by default, but currently most of them don’t. Zoho’s presentation app, Zoho Show, which made them the first fully AJAX-based Office suite online. So Zoho are really making a lot of great moves towards a Web Office. But still, some are asking if it’s enough to beat the big guns Microsoft and Google. Robert Scoble thinks it’ll be very tough, while ExtremeTech asks: Can Zoho’s Web 2.0 Office Beat Microsoft? In a thorough review, ExtremeTech gives it a decent wrap for ease-of-use – but recommends ThinkFree’s java-powered web office for grunt work. ExtremeTech generally doesn’t think web-based apps have enough power, yet, to usurp the likes of Microsoft Office: "Zoho Office includes good, lightweight applications for editing documents, spreadsheets, and presentations. You won’t find power-user features, however, and there are some missing features and quirky behavior at times. More uniformity among the apps feature sets would be welcome, as well. Even though the suite is free right now, it’s not alone in that camp, with tools from Google, Fly Office, ThinkFree, and more. Still, it’s quick, easy to use, and has nice-looking interfaces that won’t take you long to master for most of its limited feature set." [...]
Hi, I am Cliff from EditGrid. I want to invite you to take a look to EditGrid. We are taking a different way as zoho or other online office. We are concentrate to do our spreadsheet instead of developing a portfolio of service, and provide the best services of all online spreadsheets.
This is fascinating: I was a relatively early user of Zoho Writer, and since got a Writely invite and have been using it more. I haven’t touched Zoho in weeks, particularly because it has some nasty bugs that interfere with its operation in Firefox. These put me up–but much to the credit of the AdventNet folks making it, esp. Arvind, they contacted me personally for feedback. I really appreciated it!
This is fascinating: I was a relatively early user of Zoho Writer, and since got a Writely invite and have been using it more. I haven’t touched Zoho in weeks, particularly because it has some nasty bugs that interfere with its operation in Firefox. These put me up–but much to the credit of the AdventNet folks making it, esp. Arvind, they contacted me personally for feedback. I really appreciated it!
Hi, I am Cliff from EditGrid. I want to invite you to take a look to EditGrid. We are taking a different way as zoho or other online office. We are concentrate to do our spreadsheet instead of developing a portfolio of service, and provide the best services of all online spreadsheets.
I could waffle this out into several hundred words but there are several examples of this happening recently, the biggest by far is MySpace, they were a small company (once
and “normal users” definately use that service, in their millions.
Would I go up against an already established Google/MS/Yahoo service as a small company? Hell no, but if you can be different then I think you still have a good chance.
I could waffle this out into several hundred words but there are several examples of this happening recently, the biggest by far is MySpace, they were a small company (once
and “normal users” definately use that service, in their millions.
Would I go up against an already established Google/MS/Yahoo service as a small company? Hell no, but if you can be different then I think you still have a good chance.
Not a prayer…
Not a prayer…
I’m not using a web-based office product – ever. I use an online CMS at work and I can’t begin to tell you how many times people have been writing (sometimes for hours) only to have their browser crash and they lose everything.
Even if it had an autosave, there’s just no reason to be doing it over the web. I can terminal to my work PC so it isn’t like I need my files on a server somewhere.
I’m not using a web-based office product – ever. I use an online CMS at work and I can’t begin to tell you how many times people have been writing (sometimes for hours) only to have their browser crash and they lose everything.
Even if it had an autosave, there’s just no reason to be doing it over the web. I can terminal to my work PC so it isn’t like I need my files on a server somewhere.
Success isn’t about who has the best idea. If it was, OS/2 would’ve won. Success is convincing the most people that they need what you have. That’s certainly what powered the success of Microsoft’s empire, and Apple’s Ipod. Success is therefore a matter of marketting.
I have found myself in the medical software business since Shell Oil opted to move their IT operations to Malaysia. I am disabled with Cerebral Palsy, and can only talk with computer assistance. I had to develop my own software to speak because my Shell employers found none of the commerically available products acceptable. Even now, ten years later, my software makes the stuff Dr. Stephen Hawkins uses sound sick by comparsion. Yet, I have come to the sad conclusion that I’ll probably never sell a single copy.
I say that because the people who really need my software will never know it exists. The people who vet such things don’t see enough disabled people in working environments to ever think they need real quality speech software. Meanwhile, I get poorer and poorer. It takes money to make money.
Success isn’t about who has the best idea. If it was, OS/2 would’ve won. Success is convincing the most people that they need what you have. That’s certainly what powered the success of Microsoft’s empire, and Apple’s Ipod. Success is therefore a matter of marketting.
I have found myself in the medical software business since Shell Oil opted to move their IT operations to Malaysia. I am disabled with Cerebral Palsy, and can only talk with computer assistance. I had to develop my own software to speak because my Shell employers found none of the commerically available products acceptable. Even now, ten years later, my software makes the stuff Dr. Stephen Hawkins uses sound sick by comparsion. Yet, I have come to the sad conclusion that I’ll probably never sell a single copy.
I say that because the people who really need my software will never know it exists. The people who vet such things don’t see enough disabled people in working environments to ever think they need real quality speech software. Meanwhile, I get poorer and poorer. It takes money to make money.
I am a writly user, but I asked for just one feature before they were aquired, The ability to post to multiple blogs. Now that Google has them I am sure they will only let you “Blog This” for new users.
So when I saw that Zoho lets you blog, I am in baby! Mind you my wife and I use the same computer posting to multiple blogs with multiple logins. Thank you Zoho!
I am a writly user, but I asked for just one feature before they were aquired, The ability to post to multiple blogs. Now that Google has them I am sure they will only let you “Blog This” for new users.
So when I saw that Zoho lets you blog, I am in baby! Mind you my wife and I use the same computer posting to multiple blogs with multiple logins. Thank you Zoho!
[...] AdventNet recently released a major update to Zoho Writer, which improved collaboration among users and fixed a bug that was reported earlier this year. Following the release, some respected bloggers such as Pandurang Nayak and Robert Scoble expressed doubts about Zoho’s business value and AdventNet’s viability as a company, as reported by AdventNet’s CEO. Unlike my peers, I believe that Zoho is on the verge of delivering one of the most powerful productivity enhancers the office world has seen in years, and AdventNet is better positioned than most companies to rip the benefits of the evolution towards Office 2.0. Here is why. [...]
Robert, do you think that small companies should stop trying – because consumers will only use it if it comes from giants like MS, Google or Yahoo. Historically, that’s not correct – all great innovations have come from small companies in last couple of decades. MS itself was a small company that challenged existing companies like Digital Research and won the OS game. Recently you can think of ICQ, MySpace, Skype and tons of other examples.
Now you may be right about these small companies survining as independent companies in the long run – acquisition by larger companies seems to be the current trend. But that doesn’t mean the products launched by these small companies will not become popular with very large user bases
Robert, do you think that small companies should stop trying – because consumers will only use it if it comes from giants like MS, Google or Yahoo. Historically, that’s not correct – all great innovations have come from small companies in last couple of decades. MS itself was a small company that challenged existing companies like Digital Research and won the OS game. Recently you can think of ICQ, MySpace, Skype and tons of other examples.
Now you may be right about these small companies survining as independent companies in the long run – acquisition by larger companies seems to be the current trend. But that doesn’t mean the products launched by these small companies will not become popular with very large user bases
[...] How Zoho will gain users’ trust (remember, with rich web applications the application provider holds the data, not you. See Scoble) [...]
[...] Zoho is putting together one of the best Ajax web office suites. Don’t just read what we’ve written about them – see Robert Scoble and Pandurang Nayak as well. Zoho is a company to watch. [...]
[...] Zoho ZohoはAjaxを利用したトップクラスのオフィスアプリサービスを提供。Zohoのようなサービスがビジネスモデルとして成立するのかどうかをめぐり議論になったことがある。Robert ScobleとPandurang Nayak のサイトを参照。しかし、Zohoのようなサービスがもつ潜在的な力に興味を持った。Zohoやその他のサービスは巨大なエンタプライズ・オフィスソフトの市場に大変革をもたらす可能性を秘めている。Zohoは注目すべき会社だ。 [...]
I like the idea of a calendar about which you can organise everything..Rather like whats available in Outlook. It’s mentioned here in comments..but alas, i’m unable to find it…Anyone ?
thanks,
Brad
I like the idea of a calendar about which you can organise everything..Rather like whats available in Outlook. It’s mentioned here in comments..but alas, i’m unable to find it…Anyone ?
thanks,
Brad