Surprise of the month: Macs crash?

OK, I just purchased a Mac. A 17-inch MacBook Pro. I was forced into this by HD and wide-screen video formats. Windows Movie Maker doesn’t do it (it does on Windows Vista, but I can’t use beta software to run my business). Apple’s software does do HD today. I don’t even need to wait (there’s a reason why Microsoft’s Channel 9 and On10.net aren’t wide-screen or HD and it’s spelled Movie Maker). And, anyway, most of the video community here uses Macs (I learned a lot from watching Eddie and Ryanne edit their videos about FinalCut Pro). So, I’m going along for the ride. So, why am I posting this? Cause I just read about Dave Winer’s crashy experiences with his Mac.

Last week on the way home from Montana Ryanne was editing her video on her Mac. The app just suddenly disappeared from screen. In my book that’s called a crash. I found that to be very strange cause the hype on Macs is that they never crash. But, those commercials are so strong. The hype is so strong. That I believe that the Mac is perfect.

Ahhh, are the Mac faithful is Patrick Scoble ready for me getting a Mac? We’ll find out. Irina started calling him “lemming” because all he would do is talk about how cool Apple is all week. It does get tiresome, doesn’t it Irina? Maybe I’ll join Guy Kawasaki’s evangelistic hoardes. :-)

Don’t worry, this post was typed on a Tablet PC. All is not lost for the Windows faithful.

Comments

  1. Did the App crash, or did OS X crash? To me, there’s a difference. I’ve had apps hang up (like Safari), but OS X just keeps on working for me – so far.

  2. Did the App crash, or did OS X crash? To me, there’s a difference. I’ve had apps hang up (like Safari), but OS X just keeps on working for me – so far.

  3. William: the app crashed. It’s been so long since I’ve had an OS crash I didn’t think they happened anymore. And I’m using Windows so I’m sure that they don’t happen on the far superior and more modern OSX. ;-)

  4. William: the app crashed. It’s been so long since I’ve had an OS crash I didn’t think they happened anymore. And I’m using Windows so I’m sure that they don’t happen on the far superior and more modern OSX. ;-)

  5. I guess the key is that her Mac didn’t crash but the application did, and in my experience, an app crashing on Windows causes the system to freeze up (whether or not it was Windows that caused the crash, I’ll never know). Whenever I’ve had a software freeze/crash on a Mac, clearing away that app leaves me free to use the rest of the system (of course its frustrating to lose the app and any data being worked on though).

  6. I guess the key is that her Mac didn’t crash but the application did, and in my experience, an app crashing on Windows causes the system to freeze up (whether or not it was Windows that caused the crash, I’ll never know). Whenever I’ve had a software freeze/crash on a Mac, clearing away that app leaves me free to use the rest of the system (of course its frustrating to lose the app and any data being worked on though).

  7. Paul: interesting. On Windows most crashes are caused by poorly written drivers which are integrated deep into the system. Apple only has to write a small small small number of drivers compared to the Windows ecosystem so I’d expect their quality to be far higher.

    I haven’t had a system-level hang in more than six months, but then I have a Lenovo Tablet PC now and had a Toshiba one before then. But those two machines have well written drivers, which explains my good experiences.

    My last crash? Firefox crashed on me last week and left up all my apps, though.

  8. Paul: interesting. On Windows most crashes are caused by poorly written drivers which are integrated deep into the system. Apple only has to write a small small small number of drivers compared to the Windows ecosystem so I’d expect their quality to be far higher.

    I haven’t had a system-level hang in more than six months, but then I have a Lenovo Tablet PC now and had a Toshiba one before then. But those two machines have well written drivers, which explains my good experiences.

    My last crash? Firefox crashed on me last week and left up all my apps, though.

  9. Al: Patrick raves about Apple even when I’m not there, which earned him the “lemming” nickname from Irina. We’re going to make him a shirt with the Apple logo and the word “lemming.”

  10. Al: Patrick raves about Apple even when I’m not there, which earned him the “lemming” nickname from Irina. We’re going to make him a shirt with the Apple logo and the word “lemming.”

  11. Different but related topic: If you’re going to edit in HD, plan to eat up gobs of drive space. Firewire drives are probably the way to go if you’re using the MacBook Pro. Avoid the Maxtor 1TB and (probably) other newer Maxtors as well. The new ones go into “sleep” mode and don’t seem to know when to wake up.

  12. Scoble,

    In my experience iMovie is notoriously finicky (no experience with Final Cut Pro), and has been known to randomly give the SBBOD (spinning beach ball of doom). Best advice I can give you is make sure you max out the memory on your brand new Mac if you are going to do a fair amount of video editing. 2 gigs as least. OS X loves memory, and the more you give it the happier you will be in the long run.

  13. Scoble,

    In my experience iMovie is notoriously finicky (no experience with Final Cut Pro), and has been known to randomly give the SBBOD (spinning beach ball of doom). Best advice I can give you is make sure you max out the memory on your brand new Mac if you are going to do a fair amount of video editing. 2 gigs as least. OS X loves memory, and the more you give it the happier you will be in the long run.

  14. Different but related topic: If you’re going to edit in HD, plan to eat up gobs of drive space. Firewire drives are probably the way to go if you’re using the MacBook Pro. Avoid the Maxtor 1TB and (probably) other newer Maxtors as well. The new ones go into “sleep” mode and don’t seem to know when to wake up.

  15. As far as I know, with Windows 2000 and Windows XP, an app crashing doesn’t bring down the system.

    With Windows 98 and Me, as I understand it, applications ran in a shared memory space, where one program could lock up windows entirely. With XP and 2000, the system maintains a space for itself in memory that applications can’t touch, so a crashing app can’t bring down Windows. I think there are some cases where it is theoretically possible, but it is much less likely.

    Personally I haven’t had XP crash or an app crash XP, ever. About once a month or so IE will crash, but that’s usually caused by some misbehaving website (a flash site, or javascript, or something).

    The only other “crashing” I experience is sometimes on my X41 Tablet, I find it with the screen blank and unresponsive, and I have to hard-power it off. That happens proably once every two months.

    I also have an iMac, but don’t use it enough to comment on how stable it is.

  16. As far as I know, with Windows 2000 and Windows XP, an app crashing doesn’t bring down the system.

    With Windows 98 and Me, as I understand it, applications ran in a shared memory space, where one program could lock up windows entirely. With XP and 2000, the system maintains a space for itself in memory that applications can’t touch, so a crashing app can’t bring down Windows. I think there are some cases where it is theoretically possible, but it is much less likely.

    Personally I haven’t had XP crash or an app crash XP, ever. About once a month or so IE will crash, but that’s usually caused by some misbehaving website (a flash site, or javascript, or something).

    The only other “crashing” I experience is sometimes on my X41 Tablet, I find it with the screen blank and unresponsive, and I have to hard-power it off. That happens proably once every two months.

    I also have an iMac, but don’t use it enough to comment on how stable it is.

  17. I’ve noticed the differences between an app crashing in Windows and one in a UNIX/Linux OS. In Windows, you might get a dialog or even [GASP] a BSOD following the app’s crash. The handy thing about crashes on Windows is that you immediately know that the app crashed and you’re usually given some reason why. Sure, that reason might be a completely unhelpful “memory could not be read” error, but odds are, the EXE (or other responsible file) is also displayed.

    On a UNIX/Linux machine, the crashing app tends to vanish. *Poof* The app never even has a chance to say “bye”.

    I know that Apple is all about the user experience, but I would think that a running app that disappears is far more jarring that one that alerts the user of a crash.

    For what it’s worth, I haven’t had a complete Windows crash (BSOD) or lockup since the Windows 2000 days, and that was caused by a failing hard drive that had exceeded its MTBF.

  18. I’ve noticed the differences between an app crashing in Windows and one in a UNIX/Linux OS. In Windows, you might get a dialog or even [GASP] a BSOD following the app’s crash. The handy thing about crashes on Windows is that you immediately know that the app crashed and you’re usually given some reason why. Sure, that reason might be a completely unhelpful “memory could not be read” error, but odds are, the EXE (or other responsible file) is also displayed.

    On a UNIX/Linux machine, the crashing app tends to vanish. *Poof* The app never even has a chance to say “bye”.

    I know that Apple is all about the user experience, but I would think that a running app that disappears is far more jarring that one that alerts the user of a crash.

    For what it’s worth, I haven’t had a complete Windows crash (BSOD) or lockup since the Windows 2000 days, and that was caused by a failing hard drive that had exceeded its MTBF.

  19. In my experience, being a Mac user for exactly one year now. I’ve never once had Mac OS X crash and my computer restart. My work PC hasn’t done that in the past year, but on a few lower end PC’s I’ve worked on for my friends have.

    To be honest unreliable software is usually the result of bad hardware on any system.

    I still trust my Mac a lot more than I ever would a PC though.

  20. In my experience, being a Mac user for exactly one year now. I’ve never once had Mac OS X crash and my computer restart. My work PC hasn’t done that in the past year, but on a few lower end PC’s I’ve worked on for my friends have.

    To be honest unreliable software is usually the result of bad hardware on any system.

    I still trust my Mac a lot more than I ever would a PC though.

  21. Macs certainly crash, but you only saw an application crash. I’m sure the rest of the applications and users on that Mac were still running just fine.

    Dave Winer saw the entire Mac crash.

    Macs crash rarely, though. I have a Mac that I use daily that hasn’t been rebooted or shut down in 62 days, only slept. My main production laptop, that I carry all over town, is rebooted about once a week…and that’s because I do it, not because it makes me.

    If an application crashes, that could be just as much a problem with the developer code than with the OS. If the entire Mac crashes, the most likely cause is a corrupted hardware driver or bad RAM. When your hardware is in good shape the OS can simply chug along and you should be able to get 100+ days of uptime like I’ve seen on my Macs.

  22. Whenever Windows crashes I see a Blue Screen with crash codes. It happens.

    When Mac OS X crashes, I let you know what I saw.

  23. Whenever Windows crashes I see a Blue Screen with crash codes. It happens.

    When Mac OS X crashes, I let you know what I saw.

  24. Macs certainly crash, but you only saw an application crash. I’m sure the rest of the applications and users on that Mac were still running just fine.

    Dave Winer saw the entire Mac crash.

    Macs crash rarely, though. I have a Mac that I use daily that hasn’t been rebooted or shut down in 62 days, only slept. My main production laptop, that I carry all over town, is rebooted about once a week…and that’s because I do it, not because it makes me.

    If an application crashes, that could be just as much a problem with the developer code than with the OS. If the entire Mac crashes, the most likely cause is a corrupted hardware driver or bad RAM. When your hardware is in good shape the OS can simply chug along and you should be able to get 100+ days of uptime like I’ve seen on my Macs.

  25. Chris: Contrary to what you might have heard about *NIX, OS X typically gives the user feedback after an application crash. The “unexpectedly quit” dialog gives you the option of keeping the app closed, reopening it, and sending a report to Apple on the crash itself. The dialogs are devoid of any cryptic language like Windows dialogs, and if you choose to send the report to Apple you can look at debugger vomit of what caused the app to crash.

    The “Macs don’t crash” myth pisses me off too. Especially since the OS X equivalent of the BSOD is the far scarier-looking kernel panic Grey Screen of Death. It looks a lot nicer than the BSOD: it’s multilingual, the type is antialiased and set nicely, and the grey screen itself is transparent so you can wave goodbye to whatever it was you were working on. It also appears on the screen in an eye-catching wipe transition from top to bottom. It’s one of the scariest effing things I’ve seen in my life.

  26. Chris: Contrary to what you might have heard about *NIX, OS X typically gives the user feedback after an application crash. The “unexpectedly quit” dialog gives you the option of keeping the app closed, reopening it, and sending a report to Apple on the crash itself. The dialogs are devoid of any cryptic language like Windows dialogs, and if you choose to send the report to Apple you can look at debugger vomit of what caused the app to crash.

    The “Macs don’t crash” myth pisses me off too. Especially since the OS X equivalent of the BSOD is the far scarier-looking kernel panic Grey Screen of Death. It looks a lot nicer than the BSOD: it’s multilingual, the type is antialiased and set nicely, and the grey screen itself is transparent so you can wave goodbye to whatever it was you were working on. It also appears on the screen in an eye-catching wipe transition from top to bottom. It’s one of the scariest effing things I’ve seen in my life.

  27. I dunno… I don’t recall ever having OS X crash on me. But, I’ve certainly had applications crash and lock up the machine, requiring me to cycle the power. That’s happened on OS X, Windows, and Linux.

    Bad apps are available for every platform. They may not, to be precise, crash the operating system, but if they crash the part that updates the screen and accepts keyboard or mouse input, then what use is a personal computer?

  28. I dunno… I don’t recall ever having OS X crash on me. But, I’ve certainly had applications crash and lock up the machine, requiring me to cycle the power. That’s happened on OS X, Windows, and Linux.

    Bad apps are available for every platform. They may not, to be precise, crash the operating system, but if they crash the part that updates the screen and accepts keyboard or mouse input, then what use is a personal computer?

  29. I was always surprised at those commercials. In my experience Apples crashed much more frequently.

    Also the mac crashes were much worse than XP crashes. The only way out was to do a shutdown.

    Most of the time people will do a restart when they think their computer isn’t working. Usually it is a process that is hung and hogging up CPU resources. To get rid of the app press crtl > shift > esc (at the same time) then go to processes, click on the CPU header twice to sort descending. See what process is hogging and end process.

  30. I was always surprised at those commercials. In my experience Apples crashed much more frequently.

    Also the mac crashes were much worse than XP crashes. The only way out was to do a shutdown.

    Most of the time people will do a restart when they think their computer isn’t working. Usually it is a process that is hung and hogging up CPU resources. To get rid of the app press crtl > shift > esc (at the same time) then go to processes, click on the CPU header twice to sort descending. See what process is hogging and end process.

  31. Nowadays, I don’t know that there’s a big difference between stability on Macs and PCs. I use all Macs at home, and all Windows at work. (That’s how I avoid taking my work home with me. :-) It happens all the time that some Windows app does something stupid (like walk off the end of a bad pointer) and crashes. Likewise, the same thing happens on the Mac.

    As far as OS crashes go, XP and OSX are largely in the same boat. Poorly written drivers are always guaranteed to hose things up. On the Mac, though, there are a couple more factors: first, I think the power management built into OSX tends to be a bit more agressive than XP, and if you (like me) have tricked your system out with lots of hardware add-ons that did not come from the factory, this aggressive power management (in past experience) has led to things misbehaving (read: crashing or hanging) more often than they might otherwise. If sleep behavior causes trouble, in the past I have just apologized to the environment and turned off power saving.

    Another factor is RAM: Macs are for some reason REALLY picky with RAM. If people are getting intermittent system crashes, bad RAM is quite often the culprit. You can have DIMMs that will work just fine in a PC, but the Mac will choke on them. So it pays to get your RAM upgrades from a very reliable source (e.g. Crucial).

  32. Nowadays, I don’t know that there’s a big difference between stability on Macs and PCs. I use all Macs at home, and all Windows at work. (That’s how I avoid taking my work home with me. :-) It happens all the time that some Windows app does something stupid (like walk off the end of a bad pointer) and crashes. Likewise, the same thing happens on the Mac.

    As far as OS crashes go, XP and OSX are largely in the same boat. Poorly written drivers are always guaranteed to hose things up. On the Mac, though, there are a couple more factors: first, I think the power management built into OSX tends to be a bit more agressive than XP, and if you (like me) have tricked your system out with lots of hardware add-ons that did not come from the factory, this aggressive power management (in past experience) has led to things misbehaving (read: crashing or hanging) more often than they might otherwise. If sleep behavior causes trouble, in the past I have just apologized to the environment and turned off power saving.

    Another factor is RAM: Macs are for some reason REALLY picky with RAM. If people are getting intermittent system crashes, bad RAM is quite often the culprit. You can have DIMMs that will work just fine in a PC, but the Mac will choke on them. So it pays to get your RAM upgrades from a very reliable source (e.g. Crucial).

  33. I’ve never had a total OS failure on my 15″ MBP. I’ve had Adium (the IM client) crash on me a few times though. Final Cut Pro has been rock solid in ways that make Avid look like the piece of crap it really is.

  34. I’ve never had a total OS failure on my 15″ MBP. I’ve had Adium (the IM client) crash on me a few times though. Final Cut Pro has been rock solid in ways that make Avid look like the piece of crap it really is.

  35. Nobody ever said that Mac’s don’t have application crashes – they do happen, but granted they’re very rare (in my experience at least). OS crashes are even more rare. Since going Mac in 2001 I think I’ve had three kernel panics in the last five years.

    Compare that to blue screens – which seem to happen five times a DAY.

  36. Nobody ever said that Mac’s don’t have application crashes – they do happen, but granted they’re very rare (in my experience at least). OS crashes are even more rare. Since going Mac in 2001 I think I’ve had three kernel panics in the last five years.

    Compare that to blue screens – which seem to happen five times a DAY.

  37. If the OS crashes you probably have bad hardware. Apps are written by people who are not qualified to write OS level code (often – not always) and are thus somewhat less reliable.

    Safari is a little leaky I think and needs to be killed from time to time. Firefox is similar (and this is true on the Windows version as well).

    I did notice that the flying windows screen saver for the Mac that came out a couple weeks ago is bad news and would hang the UI on wakeup (which means you can’t get to anything and have to reboot anyhow). So I deep sixed it.

    I told Dave if he is getting OS level crashes to head for the genius bar and get them diagnosed as they should not happen.

  38. If the OS crashes you probably have bad hardware. Apps are written by people who are not qualified to write OS level code (often – not always) and are thus somewhat less reliable.

    Safari is a little leaky I think and needs to be killed from time to time. Firefox is similar (and this is true on the Windows version as well).

    I did notice that the flying windows screen saver for the Mac that came out a couple weeks ago is bad news and would hang the UI on wakeup (which means you can’t get to anything and have to reboot anyhow). So I deep sixed it.

    I told Dave if he is getting OS level crashes to head for the genius bar and get them diagnosed as they should not happen.

  39. I’ve never had my 17″ widescreen Sony Laptop crash when editing HD with Sony Vegas. An external firewire hard drive, as big as you can get, is a must have for HD editing.

  40. I’ve never had my 17″ widescreen Sony Laptop crash when editing HD with Sony Vegas. An external firewire hard drive, as big as you can get, is a must have for HD editing.

  41. What you’re describing is an app crash and that happens on every OS. That’s why you save often. And save multiple copies of really important work.

    Theres no such thing as perfect code and every OS, whether its Windows, Mac, Linux, *BSD or Solaris have software apps that have bugs in it.

    The title of this post have been: “Duh moment of the day: Programs aren’t perfect”.

  42. What you’re describing is an app crash and that happens on every OS. That’s why you save often. And save multiple copies of really important work.

    Theres no such thing as perfect code and every OS, whether its Windows, Mac, Linux, *BSD or Solaris have software apps that have bugs in it.

    The title of this post have been: “Duh moment of the day: Programs aren’t perfect”.

  43. Many activities at the University I work at are windows only (this is policy, not technology) so I use XP alot in addition to the iMac on my desk. Windows crashes (system lock-up) alot, error messages are common, apps quit. These are new boxes for the most part. I lose an app on the iMac on occation, usually something that pushes it, modeling software or GIS. But I spend 90% of my time on the Mac and Windows problems are still 5 to 10 times more common. My colleages at other universities report similar results.

  44. Many activities at the University I work at are windows only (this is policy, not technology) so I use XP alot in addition to the iMac on my desk. Windows crashes (system lock-up) alot, error messages are common, apps quit. These are new boxes for the most part. I lose an app on the iMac on occation, usually something that pushes it, modeling software or GIS. But I spend 90% of my time on the Mac and Windows problems are still 5 to 10 times more common. My colleages at other universities report similar results.

  45. Yep. Macs crash. I got a series of kernel panics (multi-lingual “you must shut your computer down now”. Dang irritating. The next time I had my Mac open (G4 Dual 1.25GHz) to install a new hard drive, I re-seated an upgrade card for USB 2. Kernel panics greatly reduced, if not disappeared totally.

    The app that crashes the most is Firefox.

    Oh, and those “send reports to Apple” things you get when an application “unexpectedly quits”? If the app that crashed is NOT written by apple, copy the info in the window and paste it into an email message… send it to the software’s developer. Apple doesn’t forward stuff for other app crashes. Brent Simmons told me so when either NetNewsWire of MarsEdit crashed on me onetime. Brent, to his credit, wrote me back, told me which software I had that was causing the problem, and told me to write that devoper about something.

  46. Yep. Macs crash. I got a series of kernel panics (multi-lingual “you must shut your computer down now”. Dang irritating. The next time I had my Mac open (G4 Dual 1.25GHz) to install a new hard drive, I re-seated an upgrade card for USB 2. Kernel panics greatly reduced, if not disappeared totally.

    The app that crashes the most is Firefox.

    Oh, and those “send reports to Apple” things you get when an application “unexpectedly quits”? If the app that crashed is NOT written by apple, copy the info in the window and paste it into an email message… send it to the software’s developer. Apple doesn’t forward stuff for other app crashes. Brent Simmons told me so when either NetNewsWire of MarsEdit crashed on me onetime. Brent, to his credit, wrote me back, told me which software I had that was causing the problem, and told me to write that devoper about something.

  47. More memory.

    And check the type
    of memory.

    For anything involving video editing

    you need even more memory.

    And check the type. Closely. Exactly.

    And then: no problems!

    ‘sup!

  48. More memory.

    And check the type
    of memory.

    For anything involving video editing

    you need even more memory.

    And check the type. Closely. Exactly.

    And then: no problems!

    ‘sup!

  49. After the crash, the Mac will usually give you a ‘send this to Apple’ dialog with a stackcrawl.
    Apps do crash on Macs. The OS can crash too, especially if you start ignoring the ‘your disk is full, kill an app’ dialogs it puts up.
    Deeper than these is a kernel panic, the black screen of death which is beautifully multilingual on the Mac. That more often indicates a hardware issue, or a really bollixed OS install.
    Doing HD editing puts a lot of subsystems under stress – you may hit nasty race conditions in the video, firewire, and disk drivers. Apple has a lot of good engineers working hard on making these not happen (I had the pleasure of working with many of them when I was writing video capture for OS X) but this stuff is still hard to do. Make sure you save often.

  50. After the crash, the Mac will usually give you a ‘send this to Apple’ dialog with a stackcrawl.
    Apps do crash on Macs. The OS can crash too, especially if you start ignoring the ‘your disk is full, kill an app’ dialogs it puts up.
    Deeper than these is a kernel panic, the black screen of death which is beautifully multilingual on the Mac. That more often indicates a hardware issue, or a really bollixed OS install.
    Doing HD editing puts a lot of subsystems under stress – you may hit nasty race conditions in the video, firewire, and disk drivers. Apple has a lot of good engineers working hard on making these not happen (I had the pleasure of working with many of them when I was writing video capture for OS X) but this stuff is still hard to do. Make sure you save often.

  51. Oh sure, FCP disappears regularly. It doesn’t freeze, it’s just suddenly gone. I prefer that method of crashing, though. Firefox and Safari do it too, in combination with Flip4mac and WMV-videos embedded in web pages.

  52. I use both now – its great to have the option to play games on the PC, Picasa on-the-go with an XP notebook, and host my blog and run iDVD on my Mac mini. I’m more productive because I have options and multiple machines. But the mac has grown on me more – I didn’t even feel the need to boot-camp it. Almost everything I do on it meets with less resistance – although I haven’t had any crashes… yet.

  53. Hey Patrick,

    As a former Windows ‘Evangelist’, I’m sure the irony of calling someone a Mac does not escape you.

    From Mac OS X Dictionary App: lemming: a person who unthinkingly joins a mass movement, esp. a headlong rush to destruction.

    Per this definition you’d be the one who qualifies as a lemming (being like the majority, a MS Windows kind of guy).

    FWIW, Patrick on the contrary is a rebel.

    Tallk about reality distortion.
    :-)

    = tmk =

    PS: Poorly written drivers/poorly designed hardware DO also crash Mac OS X.

  54. Hey Patrick,

    As a former Windows ‘Evangelist’, I’m sure the irony of calling someone a Mac does not escape you.

    From Mac OS X Dictionary App: lemming: a person who unthinkingly joins a mass movement, esp. a headlong rush to destruction.

    Per this definition you’d be the one who qualifies as a lemming (being like the majority, a MS Windows kind of guy).

    FWIW, Patrick on the contrary is a rebel.

    Tallk about reality distortion.
    :-)

    = tmk =

    PS: Poorly written drivers/poorly designed hardware DO also crash Mac OS X.

  55. I use both now – its great to have the option to play games on the PC, Picasa on-the-go with an XP notebook, and host my blog and run iDVD on my Mac mini. I’m more productive because I have options and multiple machines. But the mac has grown on me more – I didn’t even feel the need to boot-camp it. Almost everything I do on it meets with less resistance – although I haven’t had any crashes… yet.

  56. Oh sure, FCP disappears regularly. It doesn’t freeze, it’s just suddenly gone. I prefer that method of crashing, though. Firefox and Safari do it too, in combination with Flip4mac and WMV-videos embedded in web pages.

  57. Someone said “On a UNIX/Linux machine, the crashing app tends to vanish”. Wrong. Almost always, something is printed to the standard error stream, but most window managers just throw that output away. Start the app from a terminal window and you will see it. Some window managers (Gnome for sure) allow you to set a “run in terminal” option on your toolbar shortcuts so that the app will run in a terminal when it is clicked.

  58. Someone said “On a UNIX/Linux machine, the crashing app tends to vanish”. Wrong. Almost always, something is printed to the standard error stream, but most window managers just throw that output away. Start the app from a terminal window and you will see it. Some window managers (Gnome for sure) allow you to set a “run in terminal” option on your toolbar shortcuts so that the app will run in a terminal when it is clicked.

  59. Oh… I didn’t know that “Windows Movie Maker” was the only application available for you to do videos on Windows. Thanks for letting the world know.

    It’s better if you admit the truth, though. A lot of video pros use Macs. If you were to use Windows, you would be the object of ridicule. AND, you wanted a Mac badly!

    Reading your posts from prior to the Apple Dev Conf, it’s pretty clear that you were expecting that high-end HD capable laptop you always wanted Apple to make (which Dell makes and doesn’t market well enough – according to you).

  60. Oh… I didn’t know that “Windows Movie Maker” was the only application available for you to do videos on Windows. Thanks for letting the world know.

    It’s better if you admit the truth, though. A lot of video pros use Macs. If you were to use Windows, you would be the object of ridicule. AND, you wanted a Mac badly!

    Reading your posts from prior to the Apple Dev Conf, it’s pretty clear that you were expecting that high-end HD capable laptop you always wanted Apple to make (which Dell makes and doesn’t market well enough – according to you).

  61. You’re the only person I know who has used Windows Movie Maker for work purposes. Isn’t that a bit like using Notepad as a work processor? Sure it would work, but why would you want to?

  62. You’re the only person I know who has used Windows Movie Maker for work purposes. Isn’t that a bit like using Notepad as a work processor? Sure it would work, but why would you want to?

  63. Mark: because it worked. Every single video on Channel 9 was done with it. Use the right tool for the job. If what you’re trying to do requires only Notepad why would you use anything else?

  64. Mark: because it worked. Every single video on Channel 9 was done with it. Use the right tool for the job. If what you’re trying to do requires only Notepad why would you use anything else?

  65. Dileepa, of course there are other apps available on Windows. I’ve owned a few, including Avid Express. Way too complicated to use. Maybe you miss what I do: Internet-based video. I only need to do simple edits. Not make a Hollywood production.

    But, the decision to go Mac was made for me by other people before I arrived. GeekEntertainment.tv is done on a Mac and we have video editors and other people who can help out here who are all on Macs. I want to be on the same system they are.

    I hate that I couldn’t wait for a new portable to come out, but I have a show to do before September 1 and needed to jump on the Mac bandwagon before then. No more waiting.

  66. Dileepa, of course there are other apps available on Windows. I’ve owned a few, including Avid Express. Way too complicated to use. Maybe you miss what I do: Internet-based video. I only need to do simple edits. Not make a Hollywood production.

    But, the decision to go Mac was made for me by other people before I arrived. GeekEntertainment.tv is done on a Mac and we have video editors and other people who can help out here who are all on Macs. I want to be on the same system they are.

    I hate that I couldn’t wait for a new portable to come out, but I have a show to do before September 1 and needed to jump on the Mac bandwagon before then. No more waiting.

  67. iMovie has crashed on me too, it seems to crash regularly for some other people I know (and yet is stable for others).

    Shouldn’t the title be “Mac *apps* crash?” though? It currently gives the impression that the whole system locked up because one application went down. I’ve never, ever seen that happen on a Mac (been using Macs since 2004).

  68. iMovie has crashed on me too, it seems to crash regularly for some other people I know (and yet is stable for others).

    Shouldn’t the title be “Mac *apps* crash?” though? It currently gives the impression that the whole system locked up because one application went down. I’ve never, ever seen that happen on a Mac (been using Macs since 2004).

  69. Macs are as fallible as the humans who use them. They occasionally have an _application_ fail (and _only_ the application) in the right circumstances, such as not enough memory, etc.
    However, the _Macintosh_ did not fail, the OS did not fail, and you did not fail.
    The application crashed (as did your logic in extending the notion of App Crash = Computer Crash).
    If you want perfect:
    Type on your Etch-a-Sketch — but don’t turn it over — it’ll crash!

    ; )

  70. Macs are as fallible as the humans who use them. They occasionally have an _application_ fail (and _only_ the application) in the right circumstances, such as not enough memory, etc.
    However, the _Macintosh_ did not fail, the OS did not fail, and you did not fail.
    The application crashed (as did your logic in extending the notion of App Crash = Computer Crash).
    If you want perfect:
    Type on your Etch-a-Sketch — but don’t turn it over — it’ll crash!

    ; )

  71. It makes a lot of sense to use the platform and applications that your team does, so I don’t disagree with the Mac/Final Cut choice. Would also reinforce what Robert said about MovieMaker…it gets the job done, and it’s easy. It took about five minutes to show my partner how to use it. And for those of us who aren’t making the Mac switch, I want to put in a plug for Sony Vegas, just ’cause I love it. One of those tools that’s a tad intimidating at first, but the more you use it, the more you notice how smart and efficient it is. It’s powerful and high enough quality for most work, even HDV. It does most things FCP does for about half the cost. That’s not to take away from FCP, just to suggest a tool I’ve found to be good.

  72. It makes a lot of sense to use the platform and applications that your team does, so I don’t disagree with the Mac/Final Cut choice. Would also reinforce what Robert said about MovieMaker…it gets the job done, and it’s easy. It took about five minutes to show my partner how to use it. And for those of us who aren’t making the Mac switch, I want to put in a plug for Sony Vegas, just ’cause I love it. One of those tools that’s a tad intimidating at first, but the more you use it, the more you notice how smart and efficient it is. It’s powerful and high enough quality for most work, even HDV. It does most things FCP does for about half the cost. That’s not to take away from FCP, just to suggest a tool I’ve found to be good.

  73. Also you might want to check out Final Cut Express HD before buying FCPro. It will save you some money and you can easily upgrade should you need the other features. iMovie is better then MovieMaker but both have their limits.

  74. Also you might want to check out Final Cut Express HD before buying FCPro. It will save you some money and you can easily upgrade should you need the other features. iMovie is better then MovieMaker but both have their limits.

  75. Robert,
    Max out the RAM, avoid haxies and anything labeled “Symantec”. Give Quicksilver and OmniWeb and ReelBean a try.

    Best o’ luck on that deadline!

  76. Robert,
    Max out the RAM, avoid haxies and anything labeled “Symantec”. Give Quicksilver and OmniWeb and ReelBean a try.

    Best o’ luck on that deadline!

  77. The typical Windows XP crash I’m familiar with may not in fact take the entire system down, but it grinds the thing to a halt sometimes that it won’t do much but thrash. Doing anything productive is gone so it might as well take the entire thing down because a reboot is maybe 30 seconds on this machine. Never seen that on my Mac: jut applications crashing.

    On related note, what did Microsoft do to Task Manager? In Win2k it pops right up nearly all the time. In XP it can take a long time to come up.

    Winer is an idiot. If your Mac (or any computer) is crashing that often, you try to fix it and then take it back because it is borked. Yes I said idiot because anyone that’s use Macs as long as he has knows that. To claim anything else is disingenuous and is based on other motives.

  78. The typical Windows XP crash I’m familiar with may not in fact take the entire system down, but it grinds the thing to a halt sometimes that it won’t do much but thrash. Doing anything productive is gone so it might as well take the entire thing down because a reboot is maybe 30 seconds on this machine. Never seen that on my Mac: jut applications crashing.

    On related note, what did Microsoft do to Task Manager? In Win2k it pops right up nearly all the time. In XP it can take a long time to come up.

    Winer is an idiot. If your Mac (or any computer) is crashing that often, you try to fix it and then take it back because it is borked. Yes I said idiot because anyone that’s use Macs as long as he has knows that. To claim anything else is disingenuous and is based on other motives.

  79. Welcome back to Macland Robert. Yes, Macs do crash. My favorite is the full blown Kernel Panic (you will learn about those!) IMHO Mac OS X stability peaked at 10.2.8 and then has gone down a bit. I am sure you have repaired permissions on your Mac. That is in Applications:Utilities:Disk Utility. Repairing permissions is done when the system is booted from the boot volume.

  80. Welcome back to Macland Robert. Yes, Macs do crash. My favorite is the full blown Kernel Panic (you will learn about those!) IMHO Mac OS X stability peaked at 10.2.8 and then has gone down a bit. I am sure you have repaired permissions on your Mac. That is in Applications:Utilities:Disk Utility. Repairing permissions is done when the system is booted from the boot volume.

  81. More importantly, what was all that crap about the Dell laptop being so much better for you, the one you were getting… the Macs not being good enough?

    You mentioned that in 3 posts over a month, and now, once again, we find out you’re full of sh!t.

  82. More importantly, what was all that crap about the Dell laptop being so much better for you, the one you were getting… the Macs not being good enough?

    You mentioned that in 3 posts over a month, and now, once again, we find out you’re full of sh!t.

  83. If you are experiencing a lot of crashes then it’s time to investigate. 90% of the time it’s hardware (often RAM). the remainder of the time I tend to find fonts in there from aeons past. Don’t use old fonts.

    And yeah, apps crash. Doesn’t happen often but they crash. Not had any crashes on my Macbook though….apps or otherwise.

    M

  84. I really don’t think HD is needed for the Channel 9 interviews. The files are already too big (for what purpose they serve) as it is. LOL

    But Windows Movie Maker does handle high-def. You just need to create a high-def WMVHD profile and put it in the folder where the MovieMaker WMV profiles profiles are stored, and it’ll show up as one of the video options in Movie Maker.
    See the WMV-HD section of http://www.papajohn.org.

    (Not that I have anything against Macs; use whatever you want.)

  85. I really don’t think HD is needed for the Channel 9 interviews. The files are already too big (for what purpose they serve) as it is. LOL

    But Windows Movie Maker does handle high-def. You just need to create a high-def WMVHD profile and put it in the folder where the MovieMaker WMV profiles profiles are stored, and it’ll show up as one of the video options in Movie Maker.
    See the WMV-HD section of http://www.papajohn.org.

    (Not that I have anything against Macs; use whatever you want.)

  86. If you are experiencing a lot of crashes then it’s time to investigate. 90% of the time it’s hardware (often RAM). the remainder of the time I tend to find fonts in there from aeons past. Don’t use old fonts.

    And yeah, apps crash. Doesn’t happen often but they crash. Not had any crashes on my Macbook though….apps or otherwise.

    M

  87. I haven’t seen a Mac kernel panic since OSX 10.1.

    But my OSX 10.2 installation did corrupt itself. I could log in, but after that the system wouldn’t recognize my password, so I couldn’t make system changes, install anything, or run software that required an admin password (like Retrospect Express backup software). And the always suggested, but seldom helpful, “Repaire file permissions” didn’t fix the problem. I eventually had to reinstall the system (actually, I wiped the drive in installed 10.3).

    So no, Macs are not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination.

  88. I haven’t seen a Mac kernel panic since OSX 10.1.

    But my OSX 10.2 installation did corrupt itself. I could log in, but after that the system wouldn’t recognize my password, so I couldn’t make system changes, install anything, or run software that required an admin password (like Retrospect Express backup software). And the always suggested, but seldom helpful, “Repaire file permissions” didn’t fix the problem. I eventually had to reinstall the system (actually, I wiped the drive in installed 10.3).

    So no, Macs are not perfect, by any stretch of the imagination.

  89. Hi Scoble – i’m not sure why its windows movie maker or nothing … but really why is it so hard to get a decently spec’ed Tablet PC outside the USA?

  90. Hi Scoble – i’m not sure why its windows movie maker or nothing … but really why is it so hard to get a decently spec’ed Tablet PC outside the USA?

  91. I understand Windows Movie Maker doesn’t support HD, but why are you using free video editing software to run your business in the first place?

  92. I understand Windows Movie Maker doesn’t support HD, but why are you using free video editing software to run your business in the first place?

  93. Robert- Sony Vegas is GREAT on Windows for HDV editing. I’ve gone for weeks editing a single video in HD without any hiccups or even shut-downs. Multi-mon and everything. If not Movie Maker, think about Vegas baby, Vegas. ;)

  94. Robert- Sony Vegas is GREAT on Windows for HDV editing. I’ve gone for weeks editing a single video in HD without any hiccups or even shut-downs. Multi-mon and everything. If not Movie Maker, think about Vegas baby, Vegas. ;)

  95. 2 1/2 years ago I was persuaded by Mac-owning friends to ‘switch’ to an iBook in Jan 2004. I found it crashed just as much as my old Dell/XP laptop, no better. And that was the OS, not just the apps.

    Every time I told them, they’d say ‘oh, it’s not the Mac, you must just have a bad machine, get it changed’. But an Apple shop checked it over and declared it OK.

    I started to feel over-evangelized by my Mac friends. So after 18 months I switched back to Dell, this time the superb WUXGA 1900×1200 screen, and I’m happy, and it crashes just about the same as the Mac, perhaps a little less.

    But XP feels a bit easier for me to use and I got fed up with the wide-eyed Mac evangelism.

    But wow, the Dell screen is so sharp, so clear!

  96. 2 1/2 years ago I was persuaded by Mac-owning friends to ‘switch’ to an iBook in Jan 2004. I found it crashed just as much as my old Dell/XP laptop, no better. And that was the OS, not just the apps.

    Every time I told them, they’d say ‘oh, it’s not the Mac, you must just have a bad machine, get it changed’. But an Apple shop checked it over and declared it OK.

    I started to feel over-evangelized by my Mac friends. So after 18 months I switched back to Dell, this time the superb WUXGA 1900×1200 screen, and I’m happy, and it crashes just about the same as the Mac, perhaps a little less.

    But XP feels a bit easier for me to use and I got fed up with the wide-eyed Mac evangelism.

    But wow, the Dell screen is so sharp, so clear!

  97. “On Windows most crashes are caused by poorly written drivers which are integrated deep into the system. Apple only has to write a small small small number of drivers compared to the Windows ecosystem so I’d expect their quality to be far higher.”

    Robert, you must have had a good run with apps then. I’ve had Visual Studio 2005 just go “poof!” and dissapear from time to time. That’s got nothing to do with drivers. It’s just buggy software. And yes, buggy software is also available on OS X. It’s not just the sole domain of Windows apps. :)

    Oh, and many other apps just crash on Windows. :) I’m just mentioning Visual Studio because I use it a lot. So I see it crash a lot.

  98. “On Windows most crashes are caused by poorly written drivers which are integrated deep into the system. Apple only has to write a small small small number of drivers compared to the Windows ecosystem so I’d expect their quality to be far higher.”

    Robert, you must have had a good run with apps then. I’ve had Visual Studio 2005 just go “poof!” and dissapear from time to time. That’s got nothing to do with drivers. It’s just buggy software. And yes, buggy software is also available on OS X. It’s not just the sole domain of Windows apps. :)

    Oh, and many other apps just crash on Windows. :) I’m just mentioning Visual Studio because I use it a lot. So I see it crash a lot.

  99. I just don’t get these Mac people. I’ve owned various Mac’s for 7 years and run OSX since it’s earliest public beta release. I’ve owned many, many Windows PC’s over that time as well.

    Folks, Mac’s crash. They crash often, they crash hard. iMovie crashes too and recovering lost projects is pretty much a lost cause. Anyone telling you otherwise either doesn’t use their Mac or fires it up once in a while to launch one of Apple’s own apps. Install a bunch of 3rd party apps and watch the fun ensue.

    Trust me Robert, as a long time Mac user you will see your shiny new Mac crash. There might be a pretty translucent screen instead of a blue one, but crash it will. :-)

  100. I just don’t get these Mac people. I’ve owned various Mac’s for 7 years and run OSX since it’s earliest public beta release. I’ve owned many, many Windows PC’s over that time as well.

    Folks, Mac’s crash. They crash often, they crash hard. iMovie crashes too and recovering lost projects is pretty much a lost cause. Anyone telling you otherwise either doesn’t use their Mac or fires it up once in a while to launch one of Apple’s own apps. Install a bunch of 3rd party apps and watch the fun ensue.

    Trust me Robert, as a long time Mac user you will see your shiny new Mac crash. There might be a pretty translucent screen instead of a blue one, but crash it will. :-)

  101. Dear Robert,

    I’m well aware of Apple’s market share figures.

    But calling that change ‘mass movement’ seems premature…

    This reminds of story that happened when I was in highschool. Our math teacher was making remarks regarding our results from the last math test, saying that on average there was a status quo except for one student who had accomplished the amazing fit of improving its results by on hundred percent, yes 100%. The teacher rant emphatically on how the guy had made tremendous progress since he had doubled his grade. He than explained that the guy had 1/20 for the previous test and obtained 2/20 for the new test…

    Mac users are still the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels and the troublemakers’.
    :-)

    And for that reason there’s an infinite (!) road for them to go before they become ‘the mass’ (god forbid)

    = tmk =

    PS: Yeah math teachers can be cruel in many ways ;-)

  102. Dear Robert,

    I’m well aware of Apple’s market share figures.

    But calling that change ‘mass movement’ seems premature…

    This reminds of story that happened when I was in highschool. Our math teacher was making remarks regarding our results from the last math test, saying that on average there was a status quo except for one student who had accomplished the amazing fit of improving its results by on hundred percent, yes 100%. The teacher rant emphatically on how the guy had made tremendous progress since he had doubled his grade. He than explained that the guy had 1/20 for the previous test and obtained 2/20 for the new test…

    Mac users are still the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels and the troublemakers’.
    :-)

    And for that reason there’s an infinite (!) road for them to go before they become ‘the mass’ (god forbid)

    = tmk =

    PS: Yeah math teachers can be cruel in many ways ;-)

  103. “Chris: I use the lowest-cost tools absolutely possible. Why pay more?”

    Buying a new computer is more expensive than buying a simple software program like Sony Vegas.

  104. “Chris: I use the lowest-cost tools absolutely possible. Why pay more?”

    Buying a new computer is more expensive than buying a simple software program like Sony Vegas.

  105. Ironically, I just took in one of our two-year-old PowerBooks into the shop because its hard drive melted. First time that’s ever happened to a PC I’ve owned, and I’ve probably owned 20 of them.

  106. Ironically, I just took in one of our two-year-old PowerBooks into the shop because its hard drive melted. First time that’s ever happened to a PC I’ve owned, and I’ve probably owned 20 of them.

  107. I use both a 15″ Powerbook and G5 desktop and I’ve never had a crash on either using OS X 10.1 though 10.4.7. I’ll second that this is probably a hardware issue.

  108. I use both a 15″ Powerbook and G5 desktop and I’ve never had a crash on either using OS X 10.1 though 10.4.7. I’ll second that this is probably a hardware issue.

  109. FCP is a good choice…as be Vegas, SpeedEdit, Avid and Avid Liquid.

    Vegas is the easiest get up and go…

  110. FCP is a good choice…as be Vegas, SpeedEdit, Avid and Avid Liquid.

    Vegas is the easiest get up and go…

  111. you use “the lowest-cost tools absolutely possible”? “Why pay more?”. Well, then why did you get a MacBook? By your own admission they are more expensive than other options on the market. I’m also sure you could have purchased a cheaper camera. I dunno, but I gotta think that if your business depends on the quality of your content over your competitors you would invest as much as possible in getting the best tools possible. I mean, “Blair Witch Project” was an anamoly.

  112. you use “the lowest-cost tools absolutely possible”? “Why pay more?”. Well, then why did you get a MacBook? By your own admission they are more expensive than other options on the market. I’m also sure you could have purchased a cheaper camera. I dunno, but I gotta think that if your business depends on the quality of your content over your competitors you would invest as much as possible in getting the best tools possible. I mean, “Blair Witch Project” was an anamoly.

  113. In the apple forum we can find some reports of Intel macs that Crushes with iMovie HD or Fina Cut!

    I dont know why Apple doesn have repaired that trouble.

    Sorry but i dont have a fluid or very coherent english..

  114. In the apple forum we can find some reports of Intel macs that Crushes with iMovie HD or Fina Cut!

    I dont know why Apple doesn have repaired that trouble.

    Sorry but i dont have a fluid or very coherent english..

  115. The point seems to have been missed here — Macs are machines, machines fail, so yes, Macs do crash from time to time. But do you honestly contend they are less stable than Windows machines? Really now!

    Macs aren’t perfect, maybe aren’t even good, but when compared to Windows, well, let’s not waste time comparing. Let’s just say Macs are better.

    As for those Mac ads, they certainly have crawled beneath Windows users’ skins, haven’t they? Let it go! They’re just ads, like Pepsi verus Coke and Ford versus Chevy. By the way, whatever happened to Chevy, anyway?

  116. The point seems to have been missed here — Macs are machines, machines fail, so yes, Macs do crash from time to time. But do you honestly contend they are less stable than Windows machines? Really now!

    Macs aren’t perfect, maybe aren’t even good, but when compared to Windows, well, let’s not waste time comparing. Let’s just say Macs are better.

    As for those Mac ads, they certainly have crawled beneath Windows users’ skins, haven’t they? Let it go! They’re just ads, like Pepsi verus Coke and Ford versus Chevy. By the way, whatever happened to Chevy, anyway?

  117. I worked for a big telco in the late 90′s installing ADSL. Even then Apples were reputed to be crash proof. About 5% of my installs involved Macs. Much to my surprise, I observed quite a few Mac crashes. What are the odds of that? These Mac owners who gloated about their machines were so embarrased to have me witness this. On the other hand, maybe it was just bad karma.

  118. I worked for a big telco in the late 90′s installing ADSL. Even then Apples were reputed to be crash proof. About 5% of my installs involved Macs. Much to my surprise, I observed quite a few Mac crashes. What are the odds of that? These Mac owners who gloated about their machines were so embarrased to have me witness this. On the other hand, maybe it was just bad karma.

  119. I switched from Windows XP Pro to a 17″ Mac Book Pro on 6/17. Now the middle of August. I have had to do NOTHING to the Mac (I do run software update once in a while.) I have had NO OS crashes. None. I have hung up Entourage a few times, and once an application just went away.

    Compared to my Windows experience (I still use XP for work at home and Windows 2000 for work at work) — I’ll never go back to Windows. I should have done this years ago.

    I have been programming Windows professionally since about 1987, I think. I know that if a device contains software, it will eventually break, so… I won’t claim that it will never happen. For now, I’m a believer. Apple has a better mousetrap.

  120. I switched from Windows XP Pro to a 17″ Mac Book Pro on 6/17. Now the middle of August. I have had to do NOTHING to the Mac (I do run software update once in a while.) I have had NO OS crashes. None. I have hung up Entourage a few times, and once an application just went away.

    Compared to my Windows experience (I still use XP for work at home and Windows 2000 for work at work) — I’ll never go back to Windows. I should have done this years ago.

    I have been programming Windows professionally since about 1987, I think. I know that if a device contains software, it will eventually break, so… I won’t claim that it will never happen. For now, I’m a believer. Apple has a better mousetrap.

  121. IME, crashes are rearely a problem in OS X unless there are hardware issues. Software hanging does happen however. I find this is usually related to network access issues rather than anything to OS X directly. Either way, that’s where Force Quit is so handy (ah, that handy little Apple menu, still serving us well after all these years!) – no need for restarts.
    I just hope parallels is so reliable when I fire up XP.

  122. IME, crashes are rearely a problem in OS X unless there are hardware issues. Software hanging does happen however. I find this is usually related to network access issues rather than anything to OS X directly. Either way, that’s where Force Quit is so handy (ah, that handy little Apple menu, still serving us well after all these years!) – no need for restarts.
    I just hope parallels is so reliable when I fire up XP.

  123. I’ve had OS X since its initial version. I have never seen the screen Dave Winer says he got. Never. Ever. I wish he had said more about what led to it.

    LayZ, the highest price differential between Wintel and Macs is with desktops, especially the G5/Mac Pro. So, from a price perspective, Robert’s purchase is fairly competitive.

  124. I’ve had OS X since its initial version. I have never seen the screen Dave Winer says he got. Never. Ever. I wish he had said more about what led to it.

    LayZ, the highest price differential between Wintel and Macs is with desktops, especially the G5/Mac Pro. So, from a price perspective, Robert’s purchase is fairly competitive.

  125. Oh yeah, almost forgot. Is this one of the posts you forget about when you start complaining about people being mean? Because, it seems to me that if it really bothered you, you’d stop flame-baiting so much.

    I know that’s a very odd thing as a concept, but for someone who bitches loud and long about OMGMEANPEEPOLE!!!111, it’s a little…odd to see you so blatantly Dvoraking people.

  126. Oh yeah, almost forgot. Is this one of the posts you forget about when you start complaining about people being mean? Because, it seems to me that if it really bothered you, you’d stop flame-baiting so much.

    I know that’s a very odd thing as a concept, but for someone who bitches loud and long about OMGMEANPEEPOLE!!!111, it’s a little…odd to see you so blatantly Dvoraking people.

  127. I wish one of my Macs would crash, just once, since I’m still curious after all these years to see what the MacOS equivalent of the BSOD is like…

    –R.J.

  128. I wish one of my Macs would crash, just once, since I’m still curious after all these years to see what the MacOS equivalent of the BSOD is like…

    –R.J.

  129. My iPod mini reboots randomly on occasions … the music cuts out and the screen goes blank and later the Apple logo appears.

    It is rather telling that they show you on the Apple website how to do a hard reset.

  130. My iPod mini reboots randomly on occasions … the music cuts out and the screen goes blank and later the Apple logo appears.

    It is rather telling that they show you on the Apple website how to do a hard reset.

  131. My Intel Core Solo Mac Mini (purchased in march) craps the bed randomly all the time. I’ve taken every occasion when this happens (and your BSOD is a funky transluscent message writen in lots of various languages telling you to reboot).

    Note: could I hack it to use Ze Frank’s “a55hole” quote?

    Anyway. I’m glad you posted that, Robert. I thought it was just me.

  132. My Intel Core Solo Mac Mini (purchased in march) craps the bed randomly all the time. I’ve taken every occasion when this happens (and your BSOD is a funky transluscent message writen in lots of various languages telling you to reboot).

    Note: could I hack it to use Ze Frank’s “a55hole” quote?

    Anyway. I’m glad you posted that, Robert. I thought it was just me.

  133. for a second there I thought you actually got a Mac to crash. phew.

    so what was the post for again?

    my old eMac would hangup if I really pushed it to the limit… it only had a pathetic 256MB RAM

  134. for a second there I thought you actually got a Mac to crash. phew.

    so what was the post for again?

    my old eMac would hangup if I really pushed it to the limit… it only had a pathetic 256MB RAM

  135. [...] Lets ask some high profile Mac users, like Dave Winer: “Good question. The answer is that computers crash, even Macs. In my experience, they [Macs] crash more than Windows machines.”, or even Robert Scoble:”Last week on the way home from Montana Ryanne was editing her video on her Mac. The app just suddenly disappeared from screen. In my book that’s called a crash. I found that to be very strange cause the hype on Macs is that they never crash. But, those commercials are so strong. The hype is so strong.” [...]

  136. You call Vista beta software? When Microsoft delivers their software they’re beta versions. With SP1 they’re release candidates.

  137. You call Vista beta software? When Microsoft delivers their software they’re beta versions. With SP1 they’re release candidates.

  138. Why didn’t Dave specify which software crashed on his mac?

    The only apps that crash on my Mac are Word, Excel, PowerPoint.

  139. Why didn’t Dave specify which software crashed on his mac?

    The only apps that crash on my Mac are Word, Excel, PowerPoint.

  140. Macs, Windows. They’re all the same, they crash.

    Stop being a lemming. Go Linux like the rest of us enlightened folks.

  141. Macs, Windows. They’re all the same, they crash.

    Stop being a lemming. Go Linux like the rest of us enlightened folks.

  142. I only recently switched to a Mac (second-hand G5 from eBay) and have had some application hangs, but no system crash. A friend of mine however switched the same day to a 20″ iMac and his Mac had a system hang the first day.

    I haven’t seen my Toshiba tablet crash, not even since I’ve started to use Vista. My home system would hang periodically, which was caused by bad display drivers. I’ve read/heard somewhere (guess it was Major Nelson’s podcast, but not sure) that the majority of system hangs are caused by bad video drivers.

    Anyway, let us know which tools you use on the Mac to edit your video. I have over 10 hours of video still lying around to edit…

  143. I only recently switched to a Mac (second-hand G5 from eBay) and have had some application hangs, but no system crash. A friend of mine however switched the same day to a 20″ iMac and his Mac had a system hang the first day.

    I haven’t seen my Toshiba tablet crash, not even since I’ve started to use Vista. My home system would hang periodically, which was caused by bad display drivers. I’ve read/heard somewhere (guess it was Major Nelson’s podcast, but not sure) that the majority of system hangs are caused by bad video drivers.

    Anyway, let us know which tools you use on the Mac to edit your video. I have over 10 hours of video still lying around to edit…

  144. For some reason (and I really, really, really would like it to be otherwise) I am a master in making Macs crash (not OSX, the apps). Especially Logic seems to be my main enemy on the Mac.

  145. For some reason (and I really, really, really would like it to be otherwise) I am a master in making Macs crash (not OSX, the apps). Especially Logic seems to be my main enemy on the Mac.

  146. Whoever says Macs do not crash need to get their heads check! Or better yet, get an old IBM original keyboard and whack them on the head!

    Macs, like Windows and Linux do crash. It is the frequency of the crashes that differs from one platform to another.

    Apple’s iMovie is notoriously and perpetually in beta – just like Windows OS. :P

  147. Whoever says Macs do not crash need to get their heads check! Or better yet, get an old IBM original keyboard and whack them on the head!

    Macs, like Windows and Linux do crash. It is the frequency of the crashes that differs from one platform to another.

    Apple’s iMovie is notoriously and perpetually in beta – just like Windows OS. :P

  148. Neither OS X or XP crash for me and both have there share of app crashes, but the real difference is the “getting bogged down” factor. My XP machine (IBM something or other) feels like it needs to be rebooted every 3 days before things start getting quirky and slow. My Mac runs for weeks and only needs a reboot when there’s a software update that requires it.

  149. Neither OS X or XP crash for me and both have there share of app crashes, but the real difference is the “getting bogged down” factor. My XP machine (IBM something or other) feels like it needs to be rebooted every 3 days before things start getting quirky and slow. My Mac runs for weeks and only needs a reboot when there’s a software update that requires it.

  150. Yeah, that doesn’t seem very pragmatic to me. To avoid paying $100 (Adobe Premiere Elements) $450 (Sony Vegas 6) or even $800 (Adobe Premiere Pro) to do my HD video editing, I’m going to buy a $2700 17″ macbook so I can use the included AV software because “I use the cheapest software possible”. And when lo and behold iMovie crashes, I make a post about it being “surprising”.

    Since apparently my company is based on HD video, and now I have HD ability, I extole the virtues of it and shun other sites that don’t have it, regardless of suitablity and economics.

    I can’t run my company on beta software but I can run it on the cheapest, even if it does crash.

  151. Yeah, that doesn’t seem very pragmatic to me. To avoid paying $100 (Adobe Premiere Elements) $450 (Sony Vegas 6) or even $800 (Adobe Premiere Pro) to do my HD video editing, I’m going to buy a $2700 17″ macbook so I can use the included AV software because “I use the cheapest software possible”. And when lo and behold iMovie crashes, I make a post about it being “surprising”.

    Since apparently my company is based on HD video, and now I have HD ability, I extole the virtues of it and shun other sites that don’t have it, regardless of suitablity and economics.

    I can’t run my company on beta software but I can run it on the cheapest, even if it does crash.

  152. I’m an IT professional, and based on my experience, crashes are not related to system/operating system anymore. It’s the bad users that make the system crash.

  153. I’m an IT professional, and based on my experience, crashes are not related to system/operating system anymore. It’s the bad users that make the system crash.

  154. We’ve just sent FIVE brand new 15 inch Macbook Pro’s back to Apple in Australia for replacement after each and every one, out of the box, experienced repeated kernel panics. (Grey screen of death, if you’ve never had the pleasure http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401085/)

    Apple was eventually cooperative and we have brand new just-manufactured stock out of Singapore as replacements. Something is afoot with some of the hardware, but they are not talking. Lesson learned: push back pretty hard against Apple if any recent purchases are going pear-shaped.

  155. We’ve just sent FIVE brand new 15 inch Macbook Pro’s back to Apple in Australia for replacement after each and every one, out of the box, experienced repeated kernel panics. (Grey screen of death, if you’ve never had the pleasure http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401085/)

    Apple was eventually cooperative and we have brand new just-manufactured stock out of Singapore as replacements. Something is afoot with some of the hardware, but they are not talking. Lesson learned: push back pretty hard against Apple if any recent purchases are going pear-shaped.

  156. Dual Core Intel on Windows has more choices in terms of NLEs and Videography, more compression, color correcting and automational tools too. Not that Apple and FCP aren’t great choices…themselves. But a wider variety in things Windows. But no need for OS wars, use whatever works.

    The Avid and Vegas communities are wonderful. Wish to gosh, the Sony Media (formerly Sonic Foundry) Suite was on OSX.

    But the joke of Movie Maker is not even a consideration, indeed banish it from all memory.

    Dual Core Box + Vegas Suite = cheapest.

  157. Dual Core Intel on Windows has more choices in terms of NLEs and Videography, more compression, color correcting and automational tools too. Not that Apple and FCP aren’t great choices…themselves. But a wider variety in things Windows. But no need for OS wars, use whatever works.

    The Avid and Vegas communities are wonderful. Wish to gosh, the Sony Media (formerly Sonic Foundry) Suite was on OSX.

    But the joke of Movie Maker is not even a consideration, indeed banish it from all memory.

    Dual Core Box + Vegas Suite = cheapest.

  158. My wife and I are experiencing the Myth of the Mac. We recently purchased a new MacBook so that Tracy could have a laptop and so I could do previews on Safari for my development projects.

    First things first. After waiting a very long time for it to make its global trek from Suzhou China to Nova Scotia. We tried to turn the system on and we got nothing. It was dead. We thought maybe it needed to charge. Nope.

    After looking throught he manual to find out what to do if it won’t turn on and proceed to exercize our hands through the intricate key-press combinations that could qualify as a sobriety test the system would come on but if you moved it it would shut down. If you touched it wrong it would shut down.

    We called Apple to send it back. They said sure.

    We have recieved the new one (that works) and now are attempting to network with my multi system windows based home office network.

    Holy crap. I have set up all sorts Windows and Linux networks using SMB and the like and always with relative ease. Trying to give the MacBook access to the windows files is a major pain. Fortunately I have a network sys admin background or I wouldn’t have been able to connect to my file server using the archaic server address required to connect.

    After a week I still can’t connect to my shared Epson printer which I had always been able to connect to using my Nix boxes.

    Mac is easy so long as you have never used a computer before. That way you won’t be missing what you can’t do.

    The Myth Of Mac is stong and powerful but it is just that–a myth.

  159. My wife and I are experiencing the Myth of the Mac. We recently purchased a new MacBook so that Tracy could have a laptop and so I could do previews on Safari for my development projects.

    First things first. After waiting a very long time for it to make its global trek from Suzhou China to Nova Scotia. We tried to turn the system on and we got nothing. It was dead. We thought maybe it needed to charge. Nope.

    After looking throught he manual to find out what to do if it won’t turn on and proceed to exercize our hands through the intricate key-press combinations that could qualify as a sobriety test the system would come on but if you moved it it would shut down. If you touched it wrong it would shut down.

    We called Apple to send it back. They said sure.

    We have recieved the new one (that works) and now are attempting to network with my multi system windows based home office network.

    Holy crap. I have set up all sorts Windows and Linux networks using SMB and the like and always with relative ease. Trying to give the MacBook access to the windows files is a major pain. Fortunately I have a network sys admin background or I wouldn’t have been able to connect to my file server using the archaic server address required to connect.

    After a week I still can’t connect to my shared Epson printer which I had always been able to connect to using my Nix boxes.

    Mac is easy so long as you have never used a computer before. That way you won’t be missing what you can’t do.

    The Myth Of Mac is stong and powerful but it is just that–a myth.

  160. My first Mac was a used, ebay-bought ’98 Powerbook… still the most reliable computer I’ve ever used, and it never had a system crash. I was so pleased with it, I happily shelled out for a shiny new G4 shortly after they came out… only to be entirely dissapointed. The system on it went down regularly… and the warranty-covered checkups provided a temporary fix accompanied by comments such as “This is so strange… Macs never act this way.” After 6 months of this (and the loss of a few key presentations in the process), I ended up switching back to Windows. It’s a clunky, annoying OS… but sadly it’s also cheaper and more consistent than my last Mac.

  161. My first Mac was a used, ebay-bought ’98 Powerbook… still the most reliable computer I’ve ever used, and it never had a system crash. I was so pleased with it, I happily shelled out for a shiny new G4 shortly after they came out… only to be entirely dissapointed. The system on it went down regularly… and the warranty-covered checkups provided a temporary fix accompanied by comments such as “This is so strange… Macs never act this way.” After 6 months of this (and the loss of a few key presentations in the process), I ended up switching back to Windows. It’s a clunky, annoying OS… but sadly it’s also cheaper and more consistent than my last Mac.

  162. I don’t use Macs, But I’m surprised to hear all this talk about OS X crashing just as much as XP, or XP rarely crashing.

    XP *does* crash, and it’s not hard to bring down the whole thing. One of my last XP crashes? Had two Firefox windows filled with tabs I was moving between, with some drag-n-drop action. Locked the sucker up.

    I still crash Firefox occasionaly, but I’ve never had Ubuntu freeze up. I’m sure I’m one of the lucky few, but all my Linux lockups have been related to misconfigured hardware and bad drivers.

  163. I don’t use Macs, But I’m surprised to hear all this talk about OS X crashing just as much as XP, or XP rarely crashing.

    XP *does* crash, and it’s not hard to bring down the whole thing. One of my last XP crashes? Had two Firefox windows filled with tabs I was moving between, with some drag-n-drop action. Locked the sucker up.

    I still crash Firefox occasionaly, but I’ve never had Ubuntu freeze up. I’m sure I’m one of the lucky few, but all my Linux lockups have been related to misconfigured hardware and bad drivers.

  164. I worked for 10 years for a company that exclusively used various Mac products and I’ll tell you this – Oh yeah they crash. And when they crash there is nothing to do but restart it. At work either giggled or rolled our eyes whenever we heard “Macs Never Crash”.

  165. I worked for 10 years for a company that exclusively used various Mac products and I’ll tell you this – Oh yeah they crash. And when they crash there is nothing to do but restart it. At work either giggled or rolled our eyes whenever we heard “Macs Never Crash”.

  166. okay, so we all agree that no matter the OS (yes, even Linux) machines crash.

    So, how about this?…let’s compare the frequency of “crashes” between Windows, OSX, and Linux. Ready? Go!

  167. okay, so we all agree that no matter the OS (yes, even Linux) machines crash.

    So, how about this?…let’s compare the frequency of “crashes” between Windows, OSX, and Linux. Ready? Go!

  168. I’ve had problems with my MacBook kernel panicking… it seems it wasn’t taking too nicely to my 2GB of third-party RAM. That Grey Screen is one ominous sight to see.

    So yeah, Macs can crash when all is not well. I still dig ‘em and I’m not going back to PC land.

  169. I’ve had problems with my MacBook kernel panicking… it seems it wasn’t taking too nicely to my 2GB of third-party RAM. That Grey Screen is one ominous sight to see.

    So yeah, Macs can crash when all is not well. I still dig ‘em and I’m not going back to PC land.

  170. Well the worst crash I ever personally had was on a MAC (I did have a Pr1me disk that had been gouged down the aluminum but that happed before my time at that company)

    It was one of the Mac quadras – it made the Car crash noise and died totally and thats the Only time I have a computer crash so bad I cant get it going.

  171. Well the worst crash I ever personally had was on a MAC (I did have a Pr1me disk that had been gouged down the aluminum but that happed before my time at that company)

    It was one of the Mac quadras – it made the Car crash noise and died totally and thats the Only time I have a computer crash so bad I cant get it going.

  172. Hold the front page: “A-list blogger states the bleedin’ obvious!”

    I’ve only had a Mac for 6 months, various apps have crashed occasionally, and it’s locked up completely twice I think, but generally OS X seems a lot more stable than Win2k or XP. Many of the apps I use are open source, which helps when it comes to getting fixes.

    The Linux kernel and core tools seem even more stable, I’d say popular apps for it (like Firefox and OpenOffice) tend to be at least as stable as their MS/Mac counterparts.

    Perhaps the reason the blogosphere doesn’t seem as geeky as it used to be is that all the serious coders have moved to Planet Ubuntu

  173. Hold the front page: “A-list blogger states the bleedin’ obvious!”

    I’ve only had a Mac for 6 months, various apps have crashed occasionally, and it’s locked up completely twice I think, but generally OS X seems a lot more stable than Win2k or XP. Many of the apps I use are open source, which helps when it comes to getting fixes.

    The Linux kernel and core tools seem even more stable, I’d say popular apps for it (like Firefox and OpenOffice) tend to be at least as stable as their MS/Mac counterparts.

    Perhaps the reason the blogosphere doesn’t seem as geeky as it used to be is that all the serious coders have moved to Planet Ubuntu

  174. It’s amazing how many Mac owning commenters have seen XP BSOD , even though a) they’re using Macs and b) the default behaviour of XP is to reboot rather than blue screen! Most be that darn Steve Jobs reality distortion field causing it… Yes Macs crash. And all OS have their share of application hangs. Believing otherwise is ridiculously naive.

    But buying a whole new computer just to avoid spending less money on a App that would work on your current machine? Clearly your new job in paying you far too much Scoble!

  175. It’s amazing how many Mac owning commenters have seen XP BSOD , even though a) they’re using Macs and b) the default behaviour of XP is to reboot rather than blue screen! Most be that darn Steve Jobs reality distortion field causing it… Yes Macs crash. And all OS have their share of application hangs. Believing otherwise is ridiculously naive.

    But buying a whole new computer just to avoid spending less money on a App that would work on your current machine? Clearly your new job in paying you far too much Scoble!

  176. Not sure what Winer’s point is (maybe “no matter what, the Mac shouldn’t crash because they say it doesn’t”?), but I find it amusing that he chooses to just put up with it (and marvel that his Mac crashes so much) rather than figure it out.

    Bad RAM, for instance, is platform-independent. And the Mac version of Office is notorious for freezing and unexpectedly quitting. ;-)

  177. Not sure what Winer’s point is (maybe “no matter what, the Mac shouldn’t crash because they say it doesn’t”?), but I find it amusing that he chooses to just put up with it (and marvel that his Mac crashes so much) rather than figure it out.

    Bad RAM, for instance, is platform-independent. And the Mac version of Office is notorious for freezing and unexpectedly quitting. ;-)

  178. AndyC:

    “It’s amazing how many Mac owning commenters have seen XP BSOD , even though a) they’re using Macs and b) the default behaviour of XP is to reboot rather than blue screen!”

    Let me be another of those. My 4-month-old Dell has BSOD’ed on me three times.

    But continue with your implied theory…?

  179. AndyC:

    “It’s amazing how many Mac owning commenters have seen XP BSOD , even though a) they’re using Macs and b) the default behaviour of XP is to reboot rather than blue screen!”

    Let me be another of those. My 4-month-old Dell has BSOD’ed on me three times.

    But continue with your implied theory…?

  180. Macs do crash. This is no surprise to anyone who’s used enough of them. It’s purely a myth that they don’t crash. Perhaps it’s a myth propagated by those who have never had their personal Mac crash, but there are people with XP who have never experienced a crash, either. The vast majority of my own crashes on XP are of my own doing for using beta drivers and beta programs all over the place. Other than that, I find it very stable. Macs are very stable, too, but the belief that they’re far less prone to crashes is a myth.

    BTW, who buys a whole new laptop just for one built-in app? I would’ve bought something comparable (like Vegas Movie Studio) for ~$100 instead of throwing $1200 or whatever at a new laptop.

  181. Macs do crash. This is no surprise to anyone who’s used enough of them. It’s purely a myth that they don’t crash. Perhaps it’s a myth propagated by those who have never had their personal Mac crash, but there are people with XP who have never experienced a crash, either. The vast majority of my own crashes on XP are of my own doing for using beta drivers and beta programs all over the place. Other than that, I find it very stable. Macs are very stable, too, but the belief that they’re far less prone to crashes is a myth.

    BTW, who buys a whole new laptop just for one built-in app? I would’ve bought something comparable (like Vegas Movie Studio) for ~$100 instead of throwing $1200 or whatever at a new laptop.

  182. I always thought it was a straw man argument used by anti-Mac people. “Macs DO crash. They’re not so great.” As though that was the reason why we use Macs. Never mind the much-more-civic shareware/freeware community, comparative lack of spyware, viruses, rootkits, etc., general ease of use, freedom from Microsoft spying and “checking on your license,” etc.

  183. I always thought it was a straw man argument used by anti-Mac people. “Macs DO crash. They’re not so great.” As though that was the reason why we use Macs. Never mind the much-more-civic shareware/freeware community, comparative lack of spyware, viruses, rootkits, etc., general ease of use, freedom from Microsoft spying and “checking on your license,” etc.

  184. This is news to anyone? In my old uni almost all the Macs (almost always iMacs) crashed regularly. You couldn’t even get anything STARTED; it’ll just hang at bootup. The Windows machines weren’t as bad. Indeed, this happened so frustratingly often that now any of us who’s ever been to that uni has a universal hatred of Macs.

  185. This is news to anyone? In my old uni almost all the Macs (almost always iMacs) crashed regularly. You couldn’t even get anything STARTED; it’ll just hang at bootup. The Windows machines weren’t as bad. Indeed, this happened so frustratingly often that now any of us who’s ever been to that uni has a universal hatred of Macs.

  186. I can’t speak for the people who are saying that their Macs crash more often than their Windows machines; I have NEVER seen example of that, and I have extensive experience with both.

    I was a hardcore PC user for over ten years. I was a web designer, hardware builder, network administrator, and more. I lived for Windows and hated Macs.

    Then I went back to school and started working on Macs, and I was instantly converted. Now, I’m not going to say that Macs never crash, because they do – any computer can crash. Of course Macs crash… But not NEARLY as often as Windows boxes do. Period.

    Since I switched to Macs, I have become so accustomed to getting work done instead of working on my computer, that I want to pull my hair out every time I have to work on a Windows machine now. I can’t stand them. It seems like every task is so god-dam•ed complicated to accomplish on a Windows box. Macs just work. Period.

    Out of necessity, I have both Macs and PCs in my studio. I am a professional photographer and cinematographer/editor. I can tell you this as FACT in my experience: The Macs that I use give me functionality problems once for about every ten times the Windows machines do.

    And, I can say this: The problems on the Macs are usually APP related, as oppposed to OS related on the PCs. If we just count OS problems, then OS X just plain leaves Windows in the dust.

    Hope this testimonial helps.

  187. I can’t speak for the people who are saying that their Macs crash more often than their Windows machines; I have NEVER seen example of that, and I have extensive experience with both.

    I was a hardcore PC user for over ten years. I was a web designer, hardware builder, network administrator, and more. I lived for Windows and hated Macs.

    Then I went back to school and started working on Macs, and I was instantly converted. Now, I’m not going to say that Macs never crash, because they do – any computer can crash. Of course Macs crash… But not NEARLY as often as Windows boxes do. Period.

    Since I switched to Macs, I have become so accustomed to getting work done instead of working on my computer, that I want to pull my hair out every time I have to work on a Windows machine now. I can’t stand them. It seems like every task is so god-dam•ed complicated to accomplish on a Windows box. Macs just work. Period.

    Out of necessity, I have both Macs and PCs in my studio. I am a professional photographer and cinematographer/editor. I can tell you this as FACT in my experience: The Macs that I use give me functionality problems once for about every ten times the Windows machines do.

    And, I can say this: The problems on the Macs are usually APP related, as oppposed to OS related on the PCs. If we just count OS problems, then OS X just plain leaves Windows in the dust.

    Hope this testimonial helps.

  188. It seems that whenever you state that it will never crash it does but the good thing about mac is that thought the apps may crash once in a blue moon the framework holds strong

    if i could afford a mac i would have one

  189. It seems that whenever you state that it will never crash it does but the good thing about mac is that thought the apps may crash once in a blue moon the framework holds strong

    if i could afford a mac i would have one

  190. I love reading post like this after the experience I just had (and that I bet that everybody has had). My Windows XP rebooted (after an update) without saving my open work, without warning or anything. I guess Microsoft doesn’t call that a crash, but to me is an admission that XP doesn’t even pretend to be reliable. People know they have to live with it. For all its faults, at least the Mac is trying not to crash!

  191. I love reading post like this after the experience I just had (and that I bet that everybody has had). My Windows XP rebooted (after an update) without saving my open work, without warning or anything. I guess Microsoft doesn’t call that a crash, but to me is an admission that XP doesn’t even pretend to be reliable. People know they have to live with it. For all its faults, at least the Mac is trying not to crash!

  192. *Wrings hands together*
    Where do we start? I’ve crashed Linux, Windows, Dos, C64s, Speccies and of course I made a Mac hang once.

    On modern PC hardware the usual suspect for an OS hang is quite often the network and that’s what happened when I made OS X hang for the first time. A few shares were open on the desktop, I was helping them set up their networking so I removed the network cable. *Poof* hung machine. It probably would have come back if we had waited long enough but that’d ruin a good story! Now that I have a Mac laptop, if I use it at all I’m positive I’ll be able to use my destructive abilities sooner or later.

    Same story with Linux and Windows in the past. Haven’t had much of a chance to play with or tear apart XP or it’s ilk but the network cable is always a good way of bringing down a Windows/Mac/Linux advocate a peg or two!

  193. *Wrings hands together*
    Where do we start? I’ve crashed Linux, Windows, Dos, C64s, Speccies and of course I made a Mac hang once.

    On modern PC hardware the usual suspect for an OS hang is quite often the network and that’s what happened when I made OS X hang for the first time. A few shares were open on the desktop, I was helping them set up their networking so I removed the network cable. *Poof* hung machine. It probably would have come back if we had waited long enough but that’d ruin a good story! Now that I have a Mac laptop, if I use it at all I’m positive I’ll be able to use my destructive abilities sooner or later.

    Same story with Linux and Windows in the past. Haven’t had much of a chance to play with or tear apart XP or it’s ilk but the network cable is always a good way of bringing down a Windows/Mac/Linux advocate a peg or two!

  194. Everything crashes, but lately Macs annoy me the most.

    some background, I am an IT troubleshooter/consultant at a small company, they run about 20 Macs and 5 XP PC’s hooked up to a MS 2003 small business server +Exchange server (Side note: much hate for Dell).

    I’ve been in charge of updates for all the machines and the most surprising thing I found was, unlike the Win Xp Machines (which get a ton of updates grumble reboot and are fine) Mac Security Updates can blow away the whole system.

    During the update to 10.4.7 2 of the 20 Macs got locked into looping on the login.app or some such nonsense and refused to boot after the restart. After exhausting every tool I had (running disk repair and permissions, fsck etc) I had to format and reinstall both of them. Granted one had only 3 gigs free, however the second had 60 gigs free and same error. Also I had disconnected all 3rd party devices and disconnected them from the network during the update so It bugged me a lot.

    But yeah I dual boot xp and linux at home so from my experience working here.

    All 3 freeze crash and hang. And while I wasn’t expecting an OS security update to blow away whole computer’s I can’t any of the 3 have been a joy to work with.

    oh and HP Printers +Mac OSX have also been hit or miss arround here Sometimes its software sometimes its just the os

  195. Everything crashes, but lately Macs annoy me the most.

    some background, I am an IT troubleshooter/consultant at a small company, they run about 20 Macs and 5 XP PC’s hooked up to a MS 2003 small business server +Exchange server (Side note: much hate for Dell).

    I’ve been in charge of updates for all the machines and the most surprising thing I found was, unlike the Win Xp Machines (which get a ton of updates grumble reboot and are fine) Mac Security Updates can blow away the whole system.

    During the update to 10.4.7 2 of the 20 Macs got locked into looping on the login.app or some such nonsense and refused to boot after the restart. After exhausting every tool I had (running disk repair and permissions, fsck etc) I had to format and reinstall both of them. Granted one had only 3 gigs free, however the second had 60 gigs free and same error. Also I had disconnected all 3rd party devices and disconnected them from the network during the update so It bugged me a lot.

    But yeah I dual boot xp and linux at home so from my experience working here.

    All 3 freeze crash and hang. And while I wasn’t expecting an OS security update to blow away whole computer’s I can’t any of the 3 have been a joy to work with.

    oh and HP Printers +Mac OSX have also been hit or miss arround here Sometimes its software sometimes its just the os

  196. [...] I admit that so far, the Mac has proven very stable, with very few problems, and minor ones at that. But if it is possible to have incidents like the one I experienced, then the message about how Macs are un-crashable is simply not true. I know that Robert Scoble had a similar problem with a machine just like mine, his post relating to Dave Winer’s crash report. In my case, the damage wasn’t that great, but imagine this happening towards the end of a long process, like encoding a long video edit. Mac accolites will surely say “But Windows crashes too!”. I’d answer “But Microsoft doesn’t go around publishing agressive campaigns saying how Windows PCs are rock-solid in comparison with the monkey-on-acid-squeek-of-death”. [...]

  197. Never had a crash because of the Mac OS. Most of the “crashes” I’ve had was because I had faulty memory (or little memory) and was running the G3 at maximum, with most RAM hungry apps open.

    Now, even reluctantly, I got myself a Mac Mini 1.66 Intel Core Duo. No OS X crashes so far, even with iMovie.

    As you mentioned, it was the App that “crashed.” Don’t blame OS X.

    Maybe it’s you…

  198. Never had a crash because of the Mac OS. Most of the “crashes” I’ve had was because I had faulty memory (or little memory) and was running the G3 at maximum, with most RAM hungry apps open.

    Now, even reluctantly, I got myself a Mac Mini 1.66 Intel Core Duo. No OS X crashes so far, even with iMovie.

    As you mentioned, it was the App that “crashed.” Don’t blame OS X.

    Maybe it’s you…

  199. In Windows, applications going “poof” are, in my experience, always caused by one of two things.

    1. A stack overflow which in turn is usually caused by illegal recursion. If there is no more room in the stack, it can’t even execute the code to handle the error and show a nice dialog, etc., so rather than crap on even more memory it shouldn’t be, it gives up.

    2. A recursive exception, ie. an error happening when you handle an error, and then another when you handle that…

    It seems to me from what people are saying that Macs and Windows crash alike on the whole.

    If you get a stack overflow or recursive exception, it goes “poof”.

    If you get some other sort of fatal exception, you get Windows Error Reporting or Apple asking you to send it the a report.

    If it is in a kernel mode driver, you get a Blue Screen of Death or a beautiful Black Screen of Death (is this like the “sad mac”?).

    I don’t know what a kernel panic is…

    Windows NT/2000/XP/2003/Vista are all based on the NT kernel and are very very very different than Windows 9x. Windows 9x has a shared memory space, therefore one naughty app can bring down the whole system.

    Mac OS X is based on UNIX and totally different from older Mac OS.

    Things have changed. Windows and Mac OS are not all that different any more, and except for little things, all this debate about who crashes more is silly.

  200. In Windows, applications going “poof” are, in my experience, always caused by one of two things.

    1. A stack overflow which in turn is usually caused by illegal recursion. If there is no more room in the stack, it can’t even execute the code to handle the error and show a nice dialog, etc., so rather than crap on even more memory it shouldn’t be, it gives up.

    2. A recursive exception, ie. an error happening when you handle an error, and then another when you handle that…

    It seems to me from what people are saying that Macs and Windows crash alike on the whole.

    If you get a stack overflow or recursive exception, it goes “poof”.

    If you get some other sort of fatal exception, you get Windows Error Reporting or Apple asking you to send it the a report.

    If it is in a kernel mode driver, you get a Blue Screen of Death or a beautiful Black Screen of Death (is this like the “sad mac”?).

    I don’t know what a kernel panic is…

    Windows NT/2000/XP/2003/Vista are all based on the NT kernel and are very very very different than Windows 9x. Windows 9x has a shared memory space, therefore one naughty app can bring down the whole system.

    Mac OS X is based on UNIX and totally different from older Mac OS.

    Things have changed. Windows and Mac OS are not all that different any more, and except for little things, all this debate about who crashes more is silly.