HP has major ethical problem, day 3

September 8, 2006 By

Let’s check in with Google News. Nope, ethical problem still there.

John Furrier, my new boss, used to work at Hewlett Packard. Last night he was telling me how much he loved Hewlett Packard (he hates the new name, which was shortened to “HP”. Yeah, all the employees used to call it “HP” in the old days too, but that was a friendly shortening). He told me how he walked into the founder’s offices once (it wasn’t guarded or closed off separate from the employees) and walked up and said hi. It was an experience that he’ll never forget. He spent a bit telling me about “the Hewlett Packard way” and how it was such an important part of his upbringing as an entrepreneur.

He gave me a little bit of heck for dragging HP into this since it looks like it was just the chairwoman (although the rest of the board is sort of tainted because they didn’t walk out instantly when they found out what was going on). He stood up for the regular employees of HP. “Imagine you’re working in sales at HP, does this affect them?”

I’ve been thinking about that one all night. On one level, obviously no. But, on another? Yes. If your leaders are willing to break the law and spy on not just themselves but on outside parties, how comfortable will people be in dealing with Hewlett Packard?

Anyway, he told me that the Hewlett Packard way is important (the old way, the one before they changed their name, before they started doing this crud) and he wondered if there’s something we can do to bring the Hewlett Packard way back?

Yes. Get rid of Patricia Dunn. Then let’s work together to talk about the cool stuff those engineers are building so the salespeople can feel proud again.

If you let a cancer hang out in your body (the body here being a company) it just gets worse. It’s surgery time. Who has the knife?

Oh, I worked a summer at Hewlett Packard when I was in high school on an assembly line. I agree that the people there were awesome. Just wanted to make it clear that this isn’t about them. Just about one board member who thought that the ends justified the means. If she’s allowed to stay, though, she’ll spread her cancer throughout HP and stain the entire organization. So, it’s time for the good people of Hewlett Packard to stand up and do the right thing. Get rid of the stain on the Hewlett Packard way.

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  • http://www.speakwithme.com/ Ajay

    Hey Robert, just curious, you are going to attend the breakfast with Carly Fiorna in a couple weeks, right?

    I think it’ll be interesting to get her perspective on a few things!

  • http://www.speakwithme.com Ajay

    Hey Robert, just curious, you are going to attend the breakfast with Carly Fiorna in a couple weeks, right?

    I think it’ll be interesting to get her perspective on a few things!

  • http://www.martinbreton.com/ brem

    HP has had ethical issues since their very beginning, stealing patent ideas from inventors.

  • http://www.martinbreton.com brem

    HP has had ethical issues since their very beginning, stealing patent ideas from inventors.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Ajay: I’m going to try to get there.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Ajay: I’m going to try to get there.

  • Mark Brown

    Robert, thank you for continuing to keep the spotlight on this story along with the MSM. The arrogance of Ms. Dunn is so complete that I’m hoping that the employees of HP simply march into her office, pick her up, and toss her into the parking lot.

  • http://www.coursesbywire.com/ Brian Sullivan

    Don’t the shareholders control who is on the board?

    When you say “the good people of HP”, I assume you are referring to some group of shareholders?

  • Mark Brown

    Robert, thank you for continuing to keep the spotlight on this story along with the MSM. The arrogance of Ms. Dunn is so complete that I’m hoping that the employees of HP simply march into her office, pick her up, and toss her into the parking lot.

  • http://www.coursesbywire.com Brian Sullivan

    Don’t the shareholders control who is on the board?

    When you say “the good people of HP”, I assume you are referring to some group of shareholders?

  • Gobble Gobble

    Over Reuters: Dunn says she didn’t know pre-texting was used and is appalled. This is crap. How on earth did she expect to get phone records without doing something illegal. This will come back to bite her.

  • Gobble Gobble

    Over Reuters: Dunn says she didn’t know pre-texting was used and is appalled. This is crap. How on earth did she expect to get phone records without doing something illegal. This will come back to bite her.

  • Venkat

    Robert – Just out of curiosity, why is there a mismatch between the number of comments indicated on the main page and the actual number of comments I see on the comments page?

  • Venkat

    Robert – Just out of curiosity, why is there a mismatch between the number of comments indicated on the main page and the actual number of comments I see on the comments page?

  • Venkat

    Nevermind. Mea culpa.

  • Venkat

    Nevermind. Mea culpa.

  • Christopher Coulter

    This really ain’t gonna go away, “HP spied on journalists”, spying on journalists? In terms of press coverage that is like killing a cop, the whole pack will descend on you forever and ever.

    Board Members are one thing, but extend that to the journos, well they aren’t going to forgive, nor let this go. Six months of coverage, easy.

  • Christopher Coulter

    This really ain’t gonna go away, “HP spied on journalists”, spying on journalists? In terms of press coverage that is like killing a cop, the whole pack will descend on you forever and ever.

    Board Members are one thing, but extend that to the journos, well they aren’t going to forgive, nor let this go. Six months of coverage, easy.

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  • Ricky

    Robert,

    I really don’t like this way of talking.

    Sure, you are describing unacceptable behaviour.

    Her behaviour seems almost like violence, which is something we must discourage at all costs.

    But using the language of personal abuse, like referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.

    It is the language of hatred and brutality.

    You are better than this old fashioned macho stuff.

    Hate the sin and love the sinner is the way you will get people who do bad stuff to change.

    Hating the sinner, telling people to hate the sinner, this may motivate others to do worse things to her than you wouln ever contemplate, things which, if they did them, would be something you wouldn’t want on your consience.

    Unless you believe she could never change.

    Believing people cannot change is a recipe for treating them as being things like cancer.

    There was a war fought against people who saw certain types of people as BEING an incurable disease, and the treatment started with long knives and got worse.

    The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.

    Now that you have used such bitter language about her, she would probably think you were the last person she could ever have a conversation with.

    Why did you think that conversation-killing language would help the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?

    We need to learn how to have the thoughts the she had, the perceived opportunities and threats she saw, and see alternative ways of dealing with them, alternatives to treating people in a way that we wouldn’t want to be treated.

    Only real conversations are going to deliver those kinds of insights.

    We really need your conversations, they always produce unexpected gems.

    Don’t shut them down or prevent them from happening, even when righteous indignation seems to be absolutely the right response.

  • Ricky

    Robert,

    I really don’t like this way of talking.

    Sure, you are describing unacceptable behaviour.

    Her behaviour seems almost like violence, which is something we must discourage at all costs.

    But using the language of personal abuse, like referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.

    It is the language of hatred and brutality.

    You are better than this old fashioned macho stuff.

    Hate the sin and love the sinner is the way you will get people who do bad stuff to change.

    Hating the sinner, telling people to hate the sinner, this may motivate others to do worse things to her than you wouln ever contemplate, things which, if they did them, would be something you wouldn’t want on your consience.

    Unless you believe she could never change.

    Believing people cannot change is a recipe for treating them as being things like cancer.

    There was a war fought against people who saw certain types of people as BEING an incurable disease, and the treatment started with long knives and got worse.

    The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.

    Now that you have used such bitter language about her, she would probably think you were the last person she could ever have a conversation with.

    Why did you think that conversation-killing language would help the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?

    We need to learn how to have the thoughts the she had, the perceived opportunities and threats she saw, and see alternative ways of dealing with them, alternatives to treating people in a way that we wouldn’t want to be treated.

    Only real conversations are going to deliver those kinds of insights.

    We really need your conversations, they always produce unexpected gems.

    Don’t shut them down or prevent them from happening, even when righteous indignation seems to be absolutely the right response.

  • http://bigmove.wordpress.com/ bigmove

    There’s got to be a way to stand up to one person no matter how powerful she is. Companies get pulled down all the time by high up people who make bad decisions and the lower people who let the ones being stupid rule the company. The people underneath have a responsibility to stand up to people like that.

  • http://bigmove.wordpress.com/ bigmove

    There’s got to be a way to stand up to one person no matter how powerful she is. Companies get pulled down all the time by high up people who make bad decisions and the lower people who let the ones being stupid rule the company. The people underneath have a responsibility to stand up to people like that.

  • http://www.glpelletier.wordpress.com Guy Pelletier

    Off the subject,

    Robert,
    I noticed you linked to you bio on wkipedia, looks good.

    As far as HP goes, with all of the corporate corruption that has been uncovered, this too will pass and hopefully the watchdogs will be meaner

  • http://www.glpelletier.wordpress.com/ Guy Pelletier

    Off the subject,

    Robert,
    I noticed you linked to you bio on wkipedia, looks good.

    As far as HP goes, with all of the corporate corruption that has been uncovered, this too will pass and hopefully the watchdogs will be meaner

  • http://www.zoliblog.com Zoli Erdos

    I’ve seen this Golden Line in a newsgroup:

    “I’m a writer. If you work for HP, don’t call me.”

    Classic:-)

  • http://www.zoliblog.com Zoli Erdos

    I’ve seen this Golden Line in a newsgroup:

    “I’m a writer. If you work for HP, don’t call me.”

    Classic:-)

  • http://blog.macb.net macbeach

    How about this news:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115773006173257658.html?mod=technology_main_whats_news

    “Hewlett-Packard Co. Chairman Patricia Dunn said she was “appalled” to belatedly learn that “pretext calls” were made to obtain phone records as part of the company’s boardroom-leak investigation.”

    Sounds a little bit like hiring a hit-man to “eliminate the competition” and then saying “but I didn’t know they were going to KILL anyone!”

    She is either stupid, or lying. In either case, the big bucks that go with these jobs should carry big responsibilities with them. Should a high flying exec have to establish a pattern of mistakes before being terminated? No, no, and absolutely no. The experience that (theoretically) qualified them for such a high position should have rendered them immune from the sort of mistakes us “ordinary” folk might make.

    (Of course I would have fired Ballmer a long time ago too, I really have no patience with these prima donnas)

  • http://macbeach.blogspot.com Mac Beach

    How about this news:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115773006173257658.html?mod=technology_main_whats_news

    “Hewlett-Packard Co. Chairman Patricia Dunn said she was “appalled” to belatedly learn that “pretext calls” were made to obtain phone records as part of the company’s boardroom-leak investigation.”

    Sounds a little bit like hiring a hit-man to “eliminate the competition” and then saying “but I didn’t know they were going to KILL anyone!”

    She is either stupid, or lying. In either case, the big bucks that go with these jobs should carry big responsibilities with them. Should a high flying exec have to establish a pattern of mistakes before being terminated? No, no, and absolutely no. The experience that (theoretically) qualified them for such a high position should have rendered them immune from the sort of mistakes us “ordinary” folk might make.

    (Of course I would have fired Ballmer a long time ago too, I really have no patience with these prima donnas)

  • http://www.fredshouse.net/ gene

    Thank you Robert for the good words about HP’s people. We’re all getting tarred by the big brush right now, and I appreciate what you said here. In fact you and John’s post started me thinking about how we could get to HP Way 2.0. Thanks.

  • http://www.fredshouse.net gene

    Thank you Robert for the good words about HP’s people. We’re all getting tarred by the big brush right now, and I appreciate what you said here. In fact you and John’s post started me thinking about how we could get to HP Way 2.0. Thanks.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    >referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.

    Normally I’d agree with you but we’re not talking about someone’s “attitude.”

    We’re talking about someone who broke the freaking law and who spied on people around her.

    That’s a cancer and needs to be removed.

    Sorry, there’s no other way to say it. It’s THAT clear!

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    >referring to people’s attitude as cancer and talking about surgery and using a knife, this is just not the kind of language we want people to use about each other.

    Normally I’d agree with you but we’re not talking about someone’s “attitude.”

    We’re talking about someone who broke the freaking law and who spied on people around her.

    That’s a cancer and needs to be removed.

    Sorry, there’s no other way to say it. It’s THAT clear!

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Mac Beach: let’s see if I got this right. She handed over other people’s social security and phone numbers and didn’t have a clue what would be done with them?

    And then after she learned the information she didn’t ask “how did you get these phone records?”

    Yeah, right. If that’s true she’s even worse than criminal. She takes us for idiots too.

  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Mac Beach: let’s see if I got this right. She handed over other people’s social security and phone numbers and didn’t have a clue what would be done with them?

    And then after she learned the information she didn’t ask “how did you get these phone records?”

    Yeah, right. If that’s true she’s even worse than criminal. She takes us for idiots too.

  • Omar

    Ricky:

    Ah??

    “The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.”

    Yes, I believe she would have tried harder not to get caught if she had known about the repercussions.

    It is silly, but the best indicator that they feel they’ve done nothing wrong (regardless of “pretexting”) is that they have not said they’re sorry.

    …”the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?”

    Learn what went on in her head? She is not a child, we do not need to know “what went on in her head”, she needs to take responsibility, apologize and/or quit. She is the chairwoman of HP, not a teenager who took a car for a joyride or spent the night away without permission.

    Omar

  • Omar

    Ricky:

    Ah??

    “The best thing you could be doing with this woman is having a CONVERSATION with her, finding out why she did what she did and whether she would do things differently in the light of the repercussions.”

    Yes, I believe she would have tried harder not to get caught if she had known about the repercussions.

    It is silly, but the best indicator that they feel they’ve done nothing wrong (regardless of “pretexting”) is that they have not said they’re sorry.

    …”the rest of us learn the most we could about what went on in her head?”

    Learn what went on in her head? She is not a child, we do not need to know “what went on in her head”, she needs to take responsibility, apologize and/or quit. She is the chairwoman of HP, not a teenager who took a car for a joyride or spent the night away without permission.

    Omar

  • http://www.speakwithme.com/ Ajay

    Dinh, a former U.S. assistant attorney general, said HP could face criminal liability even if outside entities acted on its behalf.

    “You don’t escape criminal liability under the law doing an ostrich dance by sticking your head in the sand and say ‘I want to see no evil, hear no evil, or speak no evil’,” he said. “You bear responsibility for the actions of your agent, especially if you had implicitly or explicitly authorized that agent to employ that illegal means.”

    Best. Quote. Of the Day.

    from:

    http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060908&ID=6006552

  • http://www.speakwithme.com Ajay

    Dinh, a former U.S. assistant attorney general, said HP could face criminal liability even if outside entities acted on its behalf.

    “You don’t escape criminal liability under the law doing an ostrich dance by sticking your head in the sand and say ‘I want to see no evil, hear no evil, or speak no evil’,” he said. “You bear responsibility for the actions of your agent, especially if you had implicitly or explicitly authorized that agent to employ that illegal means.”

    Best. Quote. Of the Day.

    from:

    http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/provider/providerarticle.asp?feed=OBR&Date=20060908&ID=6006552

  • http://www.speakwithme.com/ Ajay

    Patricia has no plans to resign, but will do so if the board asks her to… yeesh, she’s holding herself SO accountable here – NOT.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=governmentFilingsNews&storyID=2006-09-08T174349Z_01_N08388729_RTRIDST_0_TECH-HEWLETTPACKARD-UPDATE-1.XML

  • http://www.speakwithme.com Ajay

    Patricia has no plans to resign, but will do so if the board asks her to… yeesh, she’s holding herself SO accountable here – NOT.

    http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=governmentFilingsNews&storyID=2006-09-08T174349Z_01_N08388729_RTRIDST_0_TECH-HEWLETTPACKARD-UPDATE-1.XML

  • Christopher Coulter

    Breakfast with Carly Fiorna? Ain’t that sorta like a March 15th Senate floor meeting with Caius Julius Caesar.

    Carlyius Fiorna Caesar, nice ring eh?

  • Christopher Coulter

    Breakfast with Carly Fiorna? Ain’t that sorta like a March 15th Senate floor meeting with Caius Julius Caesar.

    Carlyius Fiorna Caesar, nice ring eh?

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  • porkchop

    Robert — it’s interesting how this ties to MSFT too.

    I used to work at HP when the founders were still there. HP had a soul that was created by the founders through the HP Way, the Garage, Management by Walking Around, and the Bench Test (if an Engineer next to you on the bench thought your invest was cool, it could turn into a product). But that soul started fading when Bill and Dave retired — and a lot of talent left HP. The soul died when they both died (and soon after Carly joined HP – when the rest of the talent left HP). Since then, it felt like just another soul-less corporate machine.

    Now jump to MSFT — I left HP to join MSFT. I see MSFT as about 5 to 10 years behind HP in corporate maturity and I see MSFT going in a lot of similar directions that HP did. MSFT still has a soul today, and is an interesting place to work. However, as Billg starts retiring, and other departures (Brianv) – how much longer will the soul remain?

  • porkchop

    Robert — it’s interesting how this ties to MSFT too.

    I used to work at HP when the founders were still there. HP had a soul that was created by the founders through the HP Way, the Garage, Management by Walking Around, and the Bench Test (if an Engineer next to you on the bench thought your invest was cool, it could turn into a product). But that soul started fading when Bill and Dave retired — and a lot of talent left HP. The soul died when they both died (and soon after Carly joined HP – when the rest of the talent left HP). Since then, it felt like just another soul-less corporate machine.

    Now jump to MSFT — I left HP to join MSFT. I see MSFT as about 5 to 10 years behind HP in corporate maturity and I see MSFT going in a lot of similar directions that HP did. MSFT still has a soul today, and is an interesting place to work. However, as Billg starts retiring, and other departures (Brianv) – how much longer will the soul remain?

  • Michael

    It gets better and better:

    “I am not happy that the way this investigation has been conducted has led to this major embarrassment,” Dunn said in an interview with CNET News.com.

    She is obviously not happy that it investigation led to the embarrassment, but she is still quite happy with the investigation itself (if it did not go public).

  • Michael

    It gets better and better:

    “I am not happy that the way this investigation has been conducted has led to this major embarrassment,” Dunn said in an interview with CNET News.com.

    She is obviously not happy that it investigation led to the embarrassment, but she is still quite happy with the investigation itself (if it did not go public).

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  • http://scobleizer.wordpress.com/ Robert Scoble

    Michael, yeah. Last night I was talking with a few high-powered Silicon Valley types and they said stuff like this goes on all the time but we never hear about it. Well, that’s exactly why a message must be sent now. And a harsh one.

    I totally agree with TechDirt and with you. No moral compass, just embarrassment at getting caught: http://techdirt.com/articles/20060908/145105.shtml

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