Microsoft and Adobe developer/designer death match

I was just adding stuff to my linkblog, cause we missed our plane to Greensboro (got another one that leaves at 1 p.m., we’ll be spending the night in Chicago) and I saw a couple of things that got me to write about the coming Microsoft/Adobe developer/designer death match.

Both Microsoft and Adobe are readying their armies for a massive fight with each other next year over both developers and creative professionals.

Microsoft fired its big gun with the Visual Studio 2005 vs. Dreamweaver page. But, don’t count Adobe out of this fight yet, this is only the first battle in a multi-year, multi-billion-dollar battle. I was over at Adobe yesterday and they have some major things coming next year that’ll play off of Adobe’s strengths and take the battle back to Redmond.

Looking at Microsoft’s list it’s interesting to note what’s not there. Some things that come to mind?

1) Video. Adobe’s Flash is what YouTube used. Microsoft doesn’t have a good video story anymore because it pulled out of the Macintosh, which is where a lot of video folks spend their time.
2) Web standards. Yeah Visual Studio supports most of them, but weird that they didn’t call that out. For designers this is the #1 most important thing whenever I hear them talking at conferences or on blogs.
3) Integration into print workflows. Adobe’s strength is its Acrobat franchise. That came from print fidelity. Things look the same on screen as they do in a magazine. Microsoft is just getting onto that bandwagon with Windows Vista printing. Also, because Dreamweaver rarely sits alone, but as part of InDesign and Acrobat, it has a strong print-centric workflow (ask Printing for Less’ CEO what designers use to create printed items and he’ll tell you largely Adobe software).

So, you can see how Adobe and Microsoft are going to attack each other over the next year. Adobe comes at it from design/video/print/layout. Microsoft will come at it from the programmer’s point of view. Tools. Protocols. Source code control. Debugging.

You’ll see both shoring up their offerings where they are weak. Winners? Both designers and developers who’ll have a raft of new tools and approaches to choose from.

Oh, and me, cause I’ll be videotaping this battle from both sides. :-)

Some of the battlefields where this will be decided on?

1) Security. Who can make it easier to build secure corporate systems. For instance, what happens when your laptop is ripped off? Does Adobe or Microsoft protect your corporate data there?
2) Openess. Which systems really will be most extendable and usable on all platforms. Important now that Apple has been gaining market share again.
3) Collaboration. Which systems let disperse development and design teams work together best?
4) Faithfulness to original creator. If you shoot a photo and on one system it keeps its color integrity, no matter where it’s displayed or printed, and on another it doesn’t, the one that’s faithful will win.
5) Blog-centricity. More and more corporate systems are going with blog-centric content management systems like Moveable Type or WordPress. Even big ones that you might not expect. Neither Microsoft nor Adobe has gotten on these bandwagons yet, but this will be a more important point over time.
6) Multi-tenant system development. More and more of our Web data, especially inside corporations, will be stored on multi-tenant systems. Salesforce.com shot its big guns off with “Apex” which is a toolset to make it easier to develop systems that’ll reside on dozens or hundreds of servers. Watch for Adobe and Microsoft to help developers build these systems too.

Anyway, what do you think? Will designers move to Microsoft? Will developers move to Adobe?

Oh, and Ajaxian points out that we can’t write off Google or third party companies in this battle either.

Comments

  1. Did they not show you Flex? RIA with Flash – works with .Net or J2EE on the backend (or Ruby or PHP), available now. WPF/What?

  2. Did they not show you Flex? RIA with Flash – works with .Net or J2EE on the backend (or Ruby or PHP), available now. WPF/What?

  3. Ross: not yesterday, but thanks for reminding us about that. It’d be interesting to compare the two ecosystems to each other, not VS to just Dreamweaver. I don’t see the two coming at the same problem.

  4. Ross: not yesterday, but thanks for reminding us about that. It’d be interesting to compare the two ecosystems to each other, not VS to just Dreamweaver. I don’t see the two coming at the same problem.

  5. Orbit: so you believe in censorship, huh?

    Well, obviously you are a lot smarter than me. So, why don’t you give us all the benefit of your big brain and share your thoughts on Adobe and Microsoft?

  6. Orbit: so you believe in censorship, huh?

    Well, obviously you are a lot smarter than me. So, why don’t you give us all the benefit of your big brain and share your thoughts on Adobe and Microsoft?

  7. Everybody knows real men code in vi.

    Whatever happened to Sparkle, or ‘Expression Whoopsie Sparkle YoYo Interactive Designer Whizbang’ (I’m sure the MS marketing dept. is to blame for that one)?

  8. Everybody knows real men code in vi.

    Whatever happened to Sparkle, or ‘Expression Whoopsie Sparkle YoYo Interactive Designer Whizbang’ (I’m sure the MS marketing dept. is to blame for that one)?

  9. The winner is the one which implements bridges like WPF to/from Flash first. Same for PDF to/from XPS, and so on…

    Everybody wins, both vendors and consumers, if content and tools are made useful, outside the use cases they were originally designed for.

    Too bad there is so much politics going on.

  10. The winner is the one which implements bridges like WPF to/from Flash first. Same for PDF to/from XPS, and so on…

    Everybody wins, both vendors and consumers, if content and tools are made useful, outside the use cases they were originally designed for.

    Too bad there is so much politics going on.

  11. Unless Adobe starts bundling rootkits and formatting hard drives during the installation of their software, Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign will remain the holy trinity for professional designers. Forever.

    As far as developers go, Adobe is really just getting started in that arena, thanks to the MM acquisition, and Flex is already the best RIA solution out there. By a large margin. WPF? Great, I can’t wait until I have to ‘skip intro’ every time I launch a Windows app, because if there is anyone who understands UI and UE less than hack ‘web designers’ its software engineers.

    Chances of MS winning over designers? None.
    Chances of MS winning over web developers at the expense of Adobe? Slim.
    Chances of Adobe winning over software engineers? Decent, but it will be a slow road.

  12. Unless Adobe starts bundling rootkits and formatting hard drives during the installation of their software, Photoshop, Illustrator and InDesign will remain the holy trinity for professional designers. Forever.

    As far as developers go, Adobe is really just getting started in that arena, thanks to the MM acquisition, and Flex is already the best RIA solution out there. By a large margin. WPF? Great, I can’t wait until I have to ‘skip intro’ every time I launch a Windows app, because if there is anyone who understands UI and UE less than hack ‘web designers’ its software engineers.

    Chances of MS winning over designers? None.
    Chances of MS winning over web developers at the expense of Adobe? Slim.
    Chances of Adobe winning over software engineers? Decent, but it will be a slow road.

  13. 2) Openess. Which systems really will be most extendable and usable on all platforms. Important now that Apple has been gaining market share again.

    This point Adobe wins, hands-down. The day Microsoft comes out with a VS that will work in OS X is the day Satan goes ice-skating in Hell. The only productivity apps you’re going to get from them are the MacOffice suite, which is slowly being nibbled to death by ducks as an enterprise solution, as things like VBA get taken out, and Windows-only features like Information Rights Management get play.

    On the client side, WPF/E is basically “hey, here’s a second-class solution for all you second-class citizens on other patforms and other browsers. If you want to be a first-class citizen- send us more money and run our operating system and browser.”. That, and it’s vaporware/demoware right now, without the ability for 3rd parties to get their hands on it and sink their teeth into it.

    The other points are contestable, but that oone isn’t- the only way you get non-Microsoft OS’s as significant parts of your workflow is if you go with someone other than Microsoft.

  14. 2) Openess. Which systems really will be most extendable and usable on all platforms. Important now that Apple has been gaining market share again.

    This point Adobe wins, hands-down. The day Microsoft comes out with a VS that will work in OS X is the day Satan goes ice-skating in Hell. The only productivity apps you’re going to get from them are the MacOffice suite, which is slowly being nibbled to death by ducks as an enterprise solution, as things like VBA get taken out, and Windows-only features like Information Rights Management get play.

    On the client side, WPF/E is basically “hey, here’s a second-class solution for all you second-class citizens on other patforms and other browsers. If you want to be a first-class citizen- send us more money and run our operating system and browser.”. That, and it’s vaporware/demoware right now, without the ability for 3rd parties to get their hands on it and sink their teeth into it.

    The other points are contestable, but that oone isn’t- the only way you get non-Microsoft OS’s as significant parts of your workflow is if you go with someone other than Microsoft.

  15. well last time I checked you wouldnt dare talk bad about Microsoft when you were a employee but since you were at podtech it is Google Google Google but before it was “Microsoft is gaining, their search is getting near to Google,Go Microsoft”. I guess the name on the paycheck fogged your judgement.
    you forget that power of Microsoft when it comes to its Applications.

  16. well last time I checked you wouldnt dare talk bad about Microsoft when you were a employee but since you were at podtech it is Google Google Google but before it was “Microsoft is gaining, their search is getting near to Google,Go Microsoft”. I guess the name on the paycheck fogged your judgement.
    you forget that power of Microsoft when it comes to its Applications.

  17. They both better remember the importance of minimizing the learning curve, too. Being able to use similar tools and interfaces across multiple applications is huge for both individual users and companies. Lots of developers forget that no matter how cool something is, you gotta teach us idjits to use it.

  18. They both better remember the importance of minimizing the learning curve, too. Being able to use similar tools and interfaces across multiple applications is huge for both individual users and companies. Lots of developers forget that no matter how cool something is, you gotta teach us idjits to use it.

  19. why would Microsoft write VS for Apple? Apple has a free Programming App available to everyone. if they really want to use .NET on Mac they have Mono.

    Which makes exactly how much for Microsoft in software licenses?

    Yeah, I thought so.

  20. why would Microsoft write VS for Apple? Apple has a free Programming App available to everyone. if they really want to use .NET on Mac they have Mono.

    Which makes exactly how much for Microsoft in software licenses?

    Yeah, I thought so.

  21. “Microsoft fired its big gun with the Visual Studio 2005 vs. Dreamweaver page.”

    I Just finished watching three of the comparison videos between VS 2005 and Dreamweaver 8. There were several glaring omissions. Microsoft’s CSS video incorrectly leads viewers to believe that DW doesn’t support external stylesheets, CSS auto-completion or CSS declaration dialogs. In reality, it’s CSS support is vastly superior to VS 5. While comparing the design / code UI between VS 5 and DW, Microsoft seems to think it’s overly complex windowing system is a feature, when it’s really a liability. And who really uses the start page on these applications? Unless you’re a Microsoft shop designing an Intranet site, I don’t expect many designers to drop Dreamweaver any time soon.

    And let’s not forget, Microsoft tools will always be part of Microsoft’s strategy to lock developers into their OS and development frameworks.

  22. “Microsoft fired its big gun with the Visual Studio 2005 vs. Dreamweaver page.”

    I Just finished watching three of the comparison videos between VS 2005 and Dreamweaver 8. There were several glaring omissions. Microsoft’s CSS video incorrectly leads viewers to believe that DW doesn’t support external stylesheets, CSS auto-completion or CSS declaration dialogs. In reality, it’s CSS support is vastly superior to VS 5. While comparing the design / code UI between VS 5 and DW, Microsoft seems to think it’s overly complex windowing system is a feature, when it’s really a liability. And who really uses the start page on these applications? Unless you’re a Microsoft shop designing an Intranet site, I don’t expect many designers to drop Dreamweaver any time soon.

    And let’s not forget, Microsoft tools will always be part of Microsoft’s strategy to lock developers into their OS and development frameworks.

  23. Stephane Rodriguez, above, is right on.

    Adobe made the decision to open it’s Flex 2 SDK to everyone, free of charge, a decision which should certainly get Microsoft’s attention. Recently both parties have released Ajax frameworks that offer the ability to call their complete API’s from the browser using JavaScript. What this means is that Ajax can be used as the glue to asynchronously call server-side ASP.NET objects from client-side Flex components and vice-versa.

    As a web creator I often have both VS2005 and Flex Builder open simultaneously. What I would like to see is more ‘bridge’ products like FABridge and Atlas, that allow competing products to work together seamlessly in their respective domains of expertise while adhering to industrial standards.

  24. Stephane Rodriguez, above, is right on.

    Adobe made the decision to open it’s Flex 2 SDK to everyone, free of charge, a decision which should certainly get Microsoft’s attention. Recently both parties have released Ajax frameworks that offer the ability to call their complete API’s from the browser using JavaScript. What this means is that Ajax can be used as the glue to asynchronously call server-side ASP.NET objects from client-side Flex components and vice-versa.

    As a web creator I often have both VS2005 and Flex Builder open simultaneously. What I would like to see is more ‘bridge’ products like FABridge and Atlas, that allow competing products to work together seamlessly in their respective domains of expertise while adhering to industrial standards.

  25. Digitaltiger: right. Which is why designers won’t switch to Microsoft technologies and why Adobe’s tech will increasingly be attractive to those in Microsoft’s camp.

  26. For those of us who hate MS, no sir, MS will never get a nickel from us.

    The sooner they die the better for the geek world.

  27. Digitaltiger: right. Which is why designers won’t switch to Microsoft technologies and why Adobe’s tech will increasingly be attractive to those in Microsoft’s camp.

  28. For those of us who hate MS, no sir, MS will never get a nickel from us.

    The sooner they die the better for the geek world.

  29. Microsoft’s video story is going to remain WMV. Microsoft’s delivery mechanism for youtubeish video is going to change from Windows Media Player to WPF/E.

  30. Microsoft’s video story is going to remain WMV. Microsoft’s delivery mechanism for youtubeish video is going to change from Windows Media Player to WPF/E.

  31. This is very interesting. It is very rare to see Microsoft spend so much time and resources to publicly document the comparisons between 2 competing products in videos.

    As long as the printer world is dominated by Adobe users, the designers will remain loyal to Adobe. You follow where the money is. You don’t use any other software the printer house don’t use. Printer will charge you at a high rate in converting the file in Adobe format or they reject your file. Why designers will swtich?

    With Macromedia migration with Adobe suite, Adobe will make all the products work very well together, as a matter of time.

    I just watch the first comparison video. I can’t hold back my sense of humor. What are the points of comparing? to show it is still a little more complicated to use VB interface? And VB is getting close to DW?

    The timing is so right. Web SIG is inviting Adobe expert to speak about Adobe Lab, RIA, and Flex on 11/29/06 at Hurricane Electric http://www.he.com 6:30pm. Admission is FREE.

  32. This is very interesting. It is very rare to see Microsoft spend so much time and resources to publicly document the comparisons between 2 competing products in videos.

    As long as the printer world is dominated by Adobe users, the designers will remain loyal to Adobe. You follow where the money is. You don’t use any other software the printer house don’t use. Printer will charge you at a high rate in converting the file in Adobe format or they reject your file. Why designers will swtich?

    With Macromedia migration with Adobe suite, Adobe will make all the products work very well together, as a matter of time.

    I just watch the first comparison video. I can’t hold back my sense of humor. What are the points of comparing? to show it is still a little more complicated to use VB interface? And VB is getting close to DW?

    The timing is so right. Web SIG is inviting Adobe expert to speak about Adobe Lab, RIA, and Flex on 11/29/06 at Hurricane Electric http://www.he.com 6:30pm. Admission is FREE.

  33. No offense to both the technology camps…

    Adobe video solutions have been massively deployed in YouTube, Google and other video sites. But none of them are being supported by the media industries in terms of generating revenue around the content.

    Someone like Google, YouTube needs to come out clean in terms of packaging the video content so video publishing houses can start to make $ around Flash video.

    Apple has done an incredible job around DRM in this space by its iTunes which is industry wide accepted now, and it is doing the right strategy of going together with the media industries.

    Apart from Apple, if there is anyone in the industry which is a hot favorite is microsoft’s DRM. It is a love-hate relationship for microsoft, people love microsoft’s DRM and because of which its WMV format may start seeing some penetration in the market apart from Apple.

    Adobe’s Flash will see notice when there is a User generated content with no associated $ around it.

    So if we look at the technology provider industry around video … it is Microsoft, Apple and Adobe.
    Each has its own values …
    Microsoft … software technology with very good DRM
    Apple … proprietary hardware with proprietary software with DRM
    Adobe … software technology

    Microsoft always goes with strategic partners. Apple plans its entire roadmap. Adobe has never made an entry in the market with strategic partners.

    In the end whose the winner??? Time will say …

  34. No offense to both the technology camps…

    Adobe video solutions have been massively deployed in YouTube, Google and other video sites. But none of them are being supported by the media industries in terms of generating revenue around the content.

    Someone like Google, YouTube needs to come out clean in terms of packaging the video content so video publishing houses can start to make $ around Flash video.

    Apple has done an incredible job around DRM in this space by its iTunes which is industry wide accepted now, and it is doing the right strategy of going together with the media industries.

    Apart from Apple, if there is anyone in the industry which is a hot favorite is microsoft’s DRM. It is a love-hate relationship for microsoft, people love microsoft’s DRM and because of which its WMV format may start seeing some penetration in the market apart from Apple.

    Adobe’s Flash will see notice when there is a User generated content with no associated $ around it.

    So if we look at the technology provider industry around video … it is Microsoft, Apple and Adobe.
    Each has its own values …
    Microsoft … software technology with very good DRM
    Apple … proprietary hardware with proprietary software with DRM
    Adobe … software technology

    Microsoft always goes with strategic partners. Apple plans its entire roadmap. Adobe has never made an entry in the market with strategic partners.

    In the end whose the winner??? Time will say …

  35. Hi Bess,
    > the printer world is dominated by Adobe
    This is only half true. Sure: PDF, PostScript, Illustrator and Indesign seem to rule the professional “creative pro” print business, but you must not underestimate the massive number of documents that are still created in Quark 3 and 4, Corel Draw, and even MS Word. I’d suggest that the total number of these beats the adobe formats any given day. The majority of the customers still have no real print workflow/pro media creation workflow in place, the whole industry still is terrifyingly amateurish (and we are not even talking about color management). This is a major opportunity for Microsoft.
    > You don’t use any other software the printer
    > house don’t use. Printer will charge you at a high
    > rate in converting the file in Adobe format or
    > they reject your file. Why designers will swtich?
    This, on the other hand, is just wrong (at least in Germany). It is the printer, who has to have all the software the creator uses, not the other way round. Even if it is some file made with Ventura Publisher version 1991. Printing is mainly a service business, and if your printer doesn’t accept your files, you change the printer. Especially the smaller print agencies spend hours each day, fixing crappy files in weird formats from their customers without even telling their customers because if they charged them for that, they’d lose the contract. The power in this business is not with the printers, but with the designers/customers.

  36. Hi Bess,
    > the printer world is dominated by Adobe
    This is only half true. Sure: PDF, PostScript, Illustrator and Indesign seem to rule the professional “creative pro” print business, but you must not underestimate the massive number of documents that are still created in Quark 3 and 4, Corel Draw, and even MS Word. I’d suggest that the total number of these beats the adobe formats any given day. The majority of the customers still have no real print workflow/pro media creation workflow in place, the whole industry still is terrifyingly amateurish (and we are not even talking about color management). This is a major opportunity for Microsoft.
    > You don’t use any other software the printer
    > house don’t use. Printer will charge you at a high
    > rate in converting the file in Adobe format or
    > they reject your file. Why designers will swtich?
    This, on the other hand, is just wrong (at least in Germany). It is the printer, who has to have all the software the creator uses, not the other way round. Even if it is some file made with Ventura Publisher version 1991. Printing is mainly a service business, and if your printer doesn’t accept your files, you change the printer. Especially the smaller print agencies spend hours each day, fixing crappy files in weird formats from their customers without even telling their customers because if they charged them for that, they’d lose the contract. The power in this business is not with the printers, but with the designers/customers.

  37. [...] Here, take my market share. Please. Some niches just don’t make a lot of direct revenues to be worth fighting for. Until you realize the law of unintended consequences. As Robert Scoble points out: “Adobe’s Flash is what YouTube used. Microsoft doesn’t have a good video story anymore because it pulled out of the Macintosh, which is where a lot of video folks spend their time.” [...]

  38. Steffen: I am referring to Microsoft wanting to get into designer space to compete with Adobe. I remembered a client use Microsoft Publisher to design newsletter layout. Many printers we contacted laughed about it.

  39. Steffen: I am referring to Microsoft wanting to get into designer space to compete with Adobe. I remembered a client use Microsoft Publisher to design newsletter layout. Many printers we contacted laughed about it.

  40. Yes Scoble pimped the shitty MS Expression when he was suckin Bills asshole for money. Now he is with Pimptech he disses his former masters like the worm he is…..how anybody can take the dribble he spouts seriously is fucking beyond me…..he doesnt even know how to use ANY of these tools….his software of choice is a browser!

  41. Yes Scoble pimped the shitty MS Expression when he was suckin Bills asshole for money. Now he is with Pimptech he disses his former masters like the worm he is…..how anybody can take the dribble he spouts seriously is fucking beyond me…..he doesnt even know how to use ANY of these tools….his software of choice is a browser!

  42. As a web developer and designer (I work with .Net,HTML/CSS/JavaScript,Flash and XML) I work with VS2005, Frontpage and TopStyle at work, and Dreamweaver and TopStyle at home. Based on my experience using Microsoft products(VS2005, Frontpage 2003 and Expression Designer) and Adobe products (Dreamweaver, GoLive, etc.), both companies have a long way to go before they can convince designers and developers to jump ship from their current favorite platform to the other side.

    For example, both GoLive and Dreamweaver have weaknesses in their coding workflow:
    - No JavaScript code insight (Frontpage has it, and it beats using the O’Reilly reference sidebar)
    - Weak Accessibility, Validation tools (VS validates webspage on the fly based on the DocType you select)
    - Clumsy integration with server-side tech (even the free VS web developer edition comes with an ASP.Net 2.0 web server built in, so you can test dynamic pages on the fly).

    On the other hand, Microsoft’s web development tools show that they still don’t truly understand the web design process:
    - Jumpy interface (try switching from a C# page to an HTML/.aspx page to a CSS page. Painful.)
    - Limited HTML tools for basic tasks such as inserting images. Eg.Dreamweaver inserts the dimensions of the image and a relative path. Frontpage inserts a file:/// path at times, and VS doesn’t insert anything but the IMG tag and path to the image. Whether I’m working with a few images or many, that can easily double the time to develop a single page.

    There’s more, but too much for a blog comment. Currently, I’m using a combination of VS2005,TopStyle,Frontpage and who knows what else to design and develop my websites, because there isn’t one tool that can do both design and development really well. And I’m tired of it. Enough with the NIH attitude. Get on with it.

  43. As a web developer and designer (I work with .Net,HTML/CSS/JavaScript,Flash and XML) I work with VS2005, Frontpage and TopStyle at work, and Dreamweaver and TopStyle at home. Based on my experience using Microsoft products(VS2005, Frontpage 2003 and Expression Designer) and Adobe products (Dreamweaver, GoLive, etc.), both companies have a long way to go before they can convince designers and developers to jump ship from their current favorite platform to the other side.

    For example, both GoLive and Dreamweaver have weaknesses in their coding workflow:
    - No JavaScript code insight (Frontpage has it, and it beats using the O’Reilly reference sidebar)
    - Weak Accessibility, Validation tools (VS validates webspage on the fly based on the DocType you select)
    - Clumsy integration with server-side tech (even the free VS web developer edition comes with an ASP.Net 2.0 web server built in, so you can test dynamic pages on the fly).

    On the other hand, Microsoft’s web development tools show that they still don’t truly understand the web design process:
    - Jumpy interface (try switching from a C# page to an HTML/.aspx page to a CSS page. Painful.)
    - Limited HTML tools for basic tasks such as inserting images. Eg.Dreamweaver inserts the dimensions of the image and a relative path. Frontpage inserts a file:/// path at times, and VS doesn’t insert anything but the IMG tag and path to the image. Whether I’m working with a few images or many, that can easily double the time to develop a single page.

    There’s more, but too much for a blog comment. Currently, I’m using a combination of VS2005,TopStyle,Frontpage and who knows what else to design and develop my websites, because there isn’t one tool that can do both design and development really well. And I’m tired of it. Enough with the NIH attitude. Get on with it.

  44. It is about what the shirts upstairs want built for the corporate operation.

    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/iwprf?id=171625

    If the servers are IIS, the applications are going to have to run on that platform. Simple as that.

    There isn’t “a” developer market – as though the people writing web-based application backend code are suddenly going to jump onto the Photoshop/Flash bandwagon and vice-versa. Also, a graphic design studio is a very different animal than a web design firm, and neither look like an application development shop. Apples and oranges? More like apples and differential equasions. Different kinds of businesses need different kinds of tool sets.

    I don’t see Adobe slipping among the visual design group, though if it kills the Home Site product it will lose a lot of hand coders. Conversely, I don’t see MS losing many programmers. The buzz may be video, but the dull fact is that for every splashy YouTubey kind of site you see, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of small, not-for-public-consumption web-based apps with minimal multimedia and a heck of a lot of daily use.

    FAW

  45. It is about what the shirts upstairs want built for the corporate operation.

    http://www.marketwire.com/mw/iwprf?id=171625

    If the servers are IIS, the applications are going to have to run on that platform. Simple as that.

    There isn’t “a” developer market – as though the people writing web-based application backend code are suddenly going to jump onto the Photoshop/Flash bandwagon and vice-versa. Also, a graphic design studio is a very different animal than a web design firm, and neither look like an application development shop. Apples and oranges? More like apples and differential equasions. Different kinds of businesses need different kinds of tool sets.

    I don’t see Adobe slipping among the visual design group, though if it kills the Home Site product it will lose a lot of hand coders. Conversely, I don’t see MS losing many programmers. The buzz may be video, but the dull fact is that for every splashy YouTubey kind of site you see, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of small, not-for-public-consumption web-based apps with minimal multimedia and a heck of a lot of daily use.

    FAW

  46. Bess, My College recommends Publisher highly. I don’t know much about these print shops but why would they laugh if a client needs something done. different clients have different requests.

  47. Bess, My College recommends Publisher highly. I don’t know much about these print shops but why would they laugh if a client needs something done. different clients have different requests.

  48. Orbit: Publisher is very,very bad for professional page layout – causing all sorts of problems at the press stage. It is simply not used in the professional design industry. The vast majority of publications will not accept Publisher created ads due to the many problems. MS itself has stopped trying to market it to the pro design/page layout market and now pushes it for laying out in house publications to be run off normal laser printers.

    Any “designer” who knows Publisher and not Indesign and/or XPress will not be hired at any design firm, nor will he/she be given any freelance work from any major customers.

  49. Orbit: Publisher is very,very bad for professional page layout – causing all sorts of problems at the press stage. It is simply not used in the professional design industry. The vast majority of publications will not accept Publisher created ads due to the many problems. MS itself has stopped trying to market it to the pro design/page layout market and now pushes it for laying out in house publications to be run off normal laser printers.

    Any “designer” who knows Publisher and not Indesign and/or XPress will not be hired at any design firm, nor will he/she be given any freelance work from any major customers.

  50. how is Publisher even being compared here. First Scoble goes “Expression, the Adobe Killer” ,once he isn’t getting paid by MSFT its .. “Goo Goo Adobe,,Yay Adobe”. If msft sells it for cheaper than it can take marketshare away from adobe but I havent used the products only when they first came out.

  51. how is Publisher even being compared here. First Scoble goes “Expression, the Adobe Killer” ,once he isn’t getting paid by MSFT its .. “Goo Goo Adobe,,Yay Adobe”. If msft sells it for cheaper than it can take marketshare away from adobe but I havent used the products only when they first came out.

  52. Orbit: Because you asked about Publisher in comment #32.

    Many of the people who write stuff – Expression etc – do not actually use creative type apps for a libing and do not understand teh intracasies, just as teh people who do use creative type apps haven’t the foggiest idea about builing databases.

    MS’s poor execution of Publisher and any other creative type apps they’ve introduced – none ever being accepted in the pro design industry because they performed – would not bode well for future acceptance.

  53. Orbit: Because you asked about Publisher in comment #32.

    Many of the people who write stuff – Expression etc – do not actually use creative type apps for a libing and do not understand teh intracasies, just as teh people who do use creative type apps haven’t the foggiest idea about builing databases.

    MS’s poor execution of Publisher and any other creative type apps they’ve introduced – none ever being accepted in the pro design industry because they performed – would not bode well for future acceptance.

  54. [...] This morning I noticed the article Scoble wrote concerning the MS vs. Adobe Death Match  And my first thought was that it concerned the PDF brawl they were having, but it actually concerned Dreamweaver vs. Visual Studio 5. I followed the link and had a look at some of the videos, which are somewhat laughable when you hear somebody talking about standards support especially when that person is from the company that brought us this “wonderfull standards compliant browser”. But alas, that is marketing speak and normally you should take this lightly. [...]

  55. Thanks John for Responding.

    Scoble forgets that he doesnt even KNOW how to use Visual Studio or anyother software microsoft made unless its a browser. how much does MSFT make off of VS? last time I checked its like 700Million, does that include cost of dev? I dunno but its nothing compared MSFT.

    MSFT would have a better time buying media companies like music companies and monopolize the industry. there for you have Apple,YouTube and mostly alot of power leverage.

  56. Thanks John for Responding.

    Scoble forgets that he doesnt even KNOW how to use Visual Studio or anyother software microsoft made unless its a browser. how much does MSFT make off of VS? last time I checked its like 700Million, does that include cost of dev? I dunno but its nothing compared MSFT.

    MSFT would have a better time buying media companies like music companies and monopolize the industry. there for you have Apple,YouTube and mostly alot of power leverage.

  57. I forgot to mention that Microsoft has been busy with Xbox360, Development of Vista,Office. It’ll be a fun day with the release of vista,office. They will probably gain profits from the security sector.

  58. I forgot to mention that Microsoft has been busy with Xbox360, Development of Vista,Office. It’ll be a fun day with the release of vista,office. They will probably gain profits from the security sector.

  59. John wrote: Any “designer” who knows Publisher and not Indesign and/or XPress will not be hired at any design firm, nor will he/she be given any freelance work from any major customers.

    Agree with John. Most problems with Publisher are at Press stage. Related to color calibration and management etc. Publisher is for desktop printing.

  60. John wrote: Any “designer” who knows Publisher and not Indesign and/or XPress will not be hired at any design firm, nor will he/she be given any freelance work from any major customers.

    Agree with John. Most problems with Publisher are at Press stage. Related to color calibration and management etc. Publisher is for desktop printing.

  61. I like to see both Adobe and Microsoft reduce their license cost to half. I would buy both because either of them can replace the other. However, it is much easier and faster to build static site and sites used other open sources like PHP in Dreamweaver.

  62. I like to see both Adobe and Microsoft reduce their license cost to half. I would buy both because either of them can replace the other. However, it is much easier and faster to build static site and sites used other open sources like PHP in Dreamweaver.

  63. Please. Microsoft is as synonymous with quality design and development as the heiress Hilton is to Mother Teresa. Like always, companies like Google, Apple, Adobe, and Legions of Development Boutiques will bound into new frontiers, and M$ will characteristically buy or steal the most successful ideas and innovations, rewrap them in the grotesque M$ packaging and marketing sewage we’ve all come to expect from these idiots, and trumpet to the unknowing masses of Joe Public that they’ve innovated yet another technological advancement. Idiots buy into it. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. Period.

  64. Please. Microsoft is as synonymous with quality design and development as the heiress Hilton is to Mother Teresa. Like always, companies like Google, Apple, Adobe, and Legions of Development Boutiques will bound into new frontiers, and M$ will characteristically buy or steal the most successful ideas and innovations, rewrap them in the grotesque M$ packaging and marketing sewage we’ve all come to expect from these idiots, and trumpet to the unknowing masses of Joe Public that they’ve innovated yet another technological advancement. Idiots buy into it. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. Period.

  65. [...] Does this mean Microsoft has the early edge? Scoble thinks not yet, but the pieces are in place for a major battle: Microsoft fired its big gun with the Visual Studio 2005 vs. Dreamweaver page. But, don’t count Adobe out of this fight yet, this is only the first battle in a multi-year, multi-billion-dollar battle. I was over at Adobe yesterday and they have some major things coming next year that’ll play off of Adobe’s strengths and take the battle back to Redmond. [...]