Apple doing a Tablet …

Don’t forget about that great Newton that they created years and years ago.

Maybe the hard knocks were a lesson that they know the answers to…

The Newton didn’t have an infrastructure, and Apple never came out with connection software that didn’t suck.

John–way to miss the point. You’re asking the car manufacturer why they didn’t make an airplane. Not everyone is going to use one of these for graphics work. The X41 is designed for mobility *first*, not power. If you want to lug around a 12×19 Wacom tablet and a quad-core Mac Pro, by all means, do it. If you want a boogie-board sized laptop that nearly starts your pant legs on fire, then go for it. But if you want a supremely light and portable (YES, that means SMALL, not 17″), easy-to-use, cool-running, rugged, dependable laptop with outstanding battery life, then this should be at the top of your list. Heck, it’s at the top of all the reviews… and the tablets, as I mentioned earlier, are selling just as well as the MacBooks. If, “based on sales figures,” “a loooooot of others” don’t want tablets, then apparently “a loooooot of others” don’t want MacBooks, either.

And for what it’s worth, while it’s not going to win any benchmarks, it’s not as slow as you make it sound. How did people ever get anything done in Photoshop on a 400 MHz Mac, back in the day? At 1.5 GHz, proc-wise, it can handle graphic apps. Just don’t expect it to blow away that Alienware/Dell XPS/MacBook Pro and impress all the girls. (um…)

Not sure I should join the fray, but what the heck…

re: Tablets and education. I work at a private school with a Tablet initiative and have talked to a lot of other schools about Tablets over the years. I don’t know of one that isn’t actively looking at them. They really are a natural in education-if the real world is any indication.

re: MS not able to compete against an established market leader. Two words: Excel and Word.

I think something that is too frequently ignored in these discussions is the time that paradigm shifts take in an established market. People know how to use keyboards and mice on a computer. They have to learn how to use the pen to do those same tasks. It may actually be better for a given task, but it feels worse. At first.

The same they happened with Windows in the early days. slow acceptance of a less-than-mature product owing (in my experience) in large measure to a reluctance to change and a perceived loss of productivity. At first.

Ryan, you miss the point of “Who the hell are they built for”

First, a 12×19 Wacom tablet has more room than your X41, secondly, I don’t need to. I can use a Macbook Pro and a Wacom 4×6 or 6×9 tablet quite nicely, as when you’re doing real graphics work, you’re…wait for it…not standing up holding a laptop in your arms for an hour. Ooh…look at that. Suddenly, I’m motionless at a desk or table. Where’s the great use of mobility. I also have a rig that blows the doors off your tablet, and I’m not seeing you get 8 hours of battery life running CS 2. Those things don’t like the CPU running at idle.

I never said everyone wanted a MacBook. But if you want to play sales figures, why do Tablets have such a craptacular part of the market? Why didn’t the UMPC light the world on fire? When you compare tablets to overall portable sales, they suck. If you want to compare tablets to a single manufacturer with 5-6% of world marketshare at best for their entire product line, you can, but it’s misleading.

If you’re so right about Tablets, then why aren’t they a major part of the laptop market?

And for what it’s worth, while it’s not going to win any benchmarks, it’s not as slow as you make it sound. How did people ever get anything done in Photoshop on a 400 MHz Mac, back in the day?

Because back in the day, 400MHz wasn’t crippled-dog slow, it was state of the art.

Again, where’s the market for Tablets outside of people jotting short notes while standing who don’t need a lot of speed or screen real estate? I can think of several vertical markets that just described, but for general use? The premium ain’t worth it.

Hell, even when you get away from lenovo and into systems that aren’t underpowered with a wee screen, the price premium is not worth it for something that has an advantage in such a narrow range of uses.

For the three Toshiba lines, by the time you get them up to as close to the standard config for a MacBook Pro 2.33 GHz model, (the middle of the MBP line), the cheapest one, the Satellite R20 is literally 60 bucks cheaper, and it can’t touch the video display in the MBP. The Tecra M7 has a better video system, but when you configure it out, it’s almost $400 more than the MBP. So again, you’re at best saving $60 for a system that only has a real advantage for light note-taking and basic graphics use. (Take a look at an Intuos, that’s a hell of a lot more than just pen input).

Looking at Fujitsu, you can get them for much cheaper than a MBP, but the specs suck in comparison. The one you can get even close to a stock middle of the line MBP? Again, almost $400 more, and a 12″ screen.

On to HP. Yep, same deal. To come in cheaper than a MBP, you give up serious capabilities, including RAM and HD size. When you get close to the MBP specs, the price goes up to around $500 more, and that’s all for a feature that is only a clear advantage in a really limited number of situations.

Now, if you NEED that feature, and I can think of quite a few situations that do, then the premium and the rest don’t matter, that’s a technical requirement. But for general use? I just don’t think the audience who only want digital notepads is that large, and the Tablet PC sales show this.

Maybe if Tablets stop being so damned limited, they’ll sell better.

Oh yeah, your line about “well, if you want uber light with great battery life”. Hmm…there seem to be a lot of laptops that aren’t tablets that fit that description as well, and they too seem to be selling better, or at least as well as the Tablets. Again…one cool feature is obviously not making the Tablets fly off the shelves the way you and Robert insist they are.

Maybe when Tablet!= Crippled and cheaper, or much more expensive for less computer, then that will change. But for right now? NFW.

Robert,

In comment #17 above, it appears that you’ve actually admitted that people weren’t buying Tablet PCs. This is rather a reversal for you, isn’t it?

John–not every laptop has to cater to the needs of graphic artists. The X41 does not. The folks that want one of these do not want to carry around a separate Wacom tablet. It’s integrated right into the unit. What on earth is wrong with that? No one cares if you have a “rig that blows the doors off” the X41… I could certainly go find one that takes the benchmarks up yet another notch–but I will not find it in a package that weighs under 4 lbs… and that is important to some people. I’d say $1,084 isn’t too terrible a price for those that “don’t need a lot of speed or screen real estate” (notwithstanding the fact mentioned earlier that they can hook up an external monitor of any size, if they want). In fact, that’s an absolutely fantastic price for that form factor and quality. And, a Tablet is much more than “just pen input.”

You make a good point about Toshiba, Fujitsu, and HP, and it’s one that I’ve noticed much moreso in the past couple years. I give Apple credit for dropping their price premium significantly–to the point where they are sometimes less than that of other major manufacturers for the same specs.

On the other hand, buying directly from the manufacturers’ quoted prices from their websites is a bad idea–usually you can get a significantly better deal if you call. Typically, with Dell I see markups of about 30-40% after configuring the machine with a few options. Like I mentioned about the X41, you can get it for a lot less than list. That said, straight off their site, Gateway sells a decent Tablet for a few hundred less than a comparable MacBook Pro (with a discrete graphics card, although not a very high-end one). (I too look forward to tablets with higher-end video options–that is one area where they haven’t pushed the hardware forward. This should happen with Vista.)

I should ask… have you even tried running CS2 on an X41? Yes, it doesn’t have a fancy graphics card (unfortunately…), but Photoshop uses the CPU for the dirty work. I’m not saying it’s going to impress anyone used to a Mac Pro or high-end Dell, but load it up with RAM and it will get the job done–just like that 400 MHz machine did back in the day. And yes, of course it’s not going to get 8 hours battery life running CS2 heavily (who ever tried to claim that?)… but any laptop is going to have a reduced runtime under those conditions.

All I’m saying about market share regarding the tablets is that they equal that of the MacBooks. Does that make them insignificant, irrelevant, and/or unimportant? I don’t think so. Ruggedized laptops serve an even smaller market share… does that mean the idea is pointless? Not at all. Is it a “craptacular” market? I doubt the people in that market think so. Did I ever “insist they are” “flying off the shelves”? Not at all. But since many of these posts have brought up Apple, to keep things in perspective, they are selling as well as the MacBooks. And a lot of people like those. Maybe the current crop doesn’t work for you personally, but is it really a problem for you that just as many people like tablet PCs?

Like a couple of other posters have mentioned, tablets are being looked at a lot in education. For instance, when lecturing, you often want to write directly on your slides; doing that with a mouse is painful, and carrying a graphics tablet to the classroom along with your laptop is kind of awkward, as well as making it difficult to walk around while you talk.

My personal desire for a tablet, though, is to mark up student papers. Students now normally turn in their writing and coding assignments electronically, and I want to return their marked-up papers the same way. The fastest way to do this is still to dump everything to a folder, print them out, mark them up manually with a red pen, scan the printouts back to PDFs and send the PDFs back to the students.

I did purchase a Watcom graphics tablet and used it both on my PC and on my Mac, but neither of them seemed to have any way to simply ink up any kind of document. Using it seemed marginally easier on the PC. On the Mac, it seemed to want to insert either graphics or convert my handwriting to text. I just want markup that travels along with the document, but is separate from it. (That is, I want my students to still be able to compile their programs even after I’ve marked them up.)

STeve, that’s most likely because Acrobat isn’t supporting that kind of input. Which would be odd, since you’d think that a tablet – style input would work really well for that.

Steve sez: “My personal desire for a tablet, though, is to mark up student papers. Students now normally turn in their writing and coding assignments electronically, and I want to return their marked-up papers the same way. The fastest way to do this is still to dump everything to a folder, print them out, mark them up manually with a red pen, scan the printouts back to PDFs and send the PDFs back to the students.”

Ever heard of a thing called the Reviewing Toolbar? No? How about Insert Comment?

Well then, I guess NO ONE has ever found a better way to review and comment on electronic documents than using a pen interface. We better pony up the money for either a Tablet PC or a high-speed scanner, or the students will never know where they went wrong.

But wait, there’s more:

“I just want markup that travels along with the document, but is separate from it….I want my students to still be able to compile their programs even after I’ve marked them up.”

Well, I guess we better get started on some method of embedding comments DIRECTLY INTO SOURCE CODE, or we’re completely screwed.

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned in this (overlong) thread… eliminating BARRIERS.

I used a Newton for years. Once the handwriting recognition got straightened out, it was an INCREDIBLY valuable machine to me, and I still miss it. If I could get modern connectivity to it, I might just dust off my Newton 2100 and give it another try…

Why? Meetings.

I spend my life in meetings. Sitting down across from someone (or several someones) and opening a laptop erects an immediate and tangible BARRIER between you and them. The form factor is just wrong… it forces you to focus attention on the screen and keyboard, not on the other people in the room.

A Newton (and I *like* the midsize Newton form factor) was non-threatening. Non-barrier. Once people quit asking questions about it, it was just a notepad. And the software was fast enough that I could create outline-formatted notes in real time, collapsing, expanding, and reorganizing sections as necessary. It was wonderful.

BUT unlike a paper notepad, when I got back to the office, all the text was immediately available in digital form for future use, indexing, whatever.

If Apple had (1) waited a year or two for faster processors to be available on Day One, and (2) recognized — like Palm — that the Newton should best be seen as a portable accessory to a “main” computer… well, I think it would have taken over the world. Smaller versions, larger versions, versions with built-in phones… I could see a whole ecosystem emerging.

In real life, they poisoned their own well, and we STILL don’t have a decent system for notetaking in meetings. Microsoft, to its credit, has OneNote, and it’s good… but it’s still not as functional as the Newt.

These days, I write on paper and scan it when I get back to my desk… a pitiful substitute. I miss the good old days…

“Can you handwrite file names in the OS with your Wacom? Just tested it on my MacBook Pro with a Wacom Graphire 3 and the 4.95 drivers. Yep. Let me handwrite file names for files and folders.”

There is a significant difference between the handwriting recognition in OS X and the Tablet PC (whether in XP or Vista).

I just tested the handwriting recognition too on a MacBook Pro with a Graphire 3 and like you said you can handwrite filenames using the write anywhere feature in OS X. It does make a difference what the filename is though and how you write it. Try installing Vista on the MBP and you’ll see a significant difference between the handwriting recognition in Vista and OS X–using the same Graphire digitizer.

Open up Safari, for instance, and try handwriting a URL like apple.com. It works just fine if you print (my cursive handwriting is recognized very poorly in OS X) “apple”. Apple written as a single word is recognized just fine much of the time for me. Try appending the “.com” though and you see how the recognizer doesn’t quite understand that the context is supposed to be a URL. It’ll probably recognize the text as “apple. com”. Of course, you can then delete the space between the period and “com” using a gesture, but it would be better if the handwriting recognizer handled URLs better.

Try the same thing in Internet Explorer in Vista and you’ll notice how the handwriting recognition does a much better job at recognizing this and other URLs. In addition, if there is a mistake, the Tablet provides a UI for making quick changes.

In terms of URLs, also try handwriting one built from several concatenated words, such as TabletPCPost.com. OS X will most likely split the words up separated by spaces. The Tablet PC does much better at recognizing URLs like this as proper URLs.

Similar issues appear with filenames. Simple, single word filenames are probably recognized just fine in OS X, however, in my experience the Tablet does much better as the complexity of what is written increases.

That still doesn’t explain why the Tablet PC is so poorly designed as to be better than nothing unless you do a lot of note-jotting in many non-sitting postures, and don’t mind paying either $400 or more to do so, or living with a half-assed computer.

Oh, and it looks like wordpress is randomly eating comments again.

John: looks like your comments are getting through.

John:

X41: PC Magazine Editor’s Choice, Laptop Magazine’s Editor’s Choice and Hot Pick, PC World’s Best Buy Award, etc. etc.

***************$1,084*****************

So, $400 more than **what**??? A $684 MacBook?

If tablets don’t work for you, fine. Yes, you sacrifice power for mobility–I don’t see *any* powerhouse machines under 4 lbs. And that weight difference isn’t just for “non-sitting postures”–it contributes greatly to the freedom of taking the laptop with you everywhere you go, rather than lugging around some 7 lb., 17″ desktop-replacement laptop. If you spend most of your time away from your desk–not standing necessarily, but just going from place to place throughout the day–then it makes a huge difference. If you’re not on the run so much and you have to have the absolute fastest laptop on the market and no other, you’ll pick the 17″ (or something else). They both have their place.

And yes, the tablet functionality is unquestionably useful for many people. If you are in meetings all the time, then keeping notes digitally (and perhaps recording the meetings) can offer a huge benefit, not to mention the advantages of doing work via pen vs. a keyboard. I once sat through a meeting where a vendor came in and typed notes on his laptop the entire time. It was apparent that he was paying complete attention to us… yet every single person in the meeting commented on how inappropriate that seemed–we couldn’t tell if he was taking notes about us, typing an unrelated document, or catching up on email. Maybe it’s just a social norm, but taking handwritten notes–on a paper tablet or a digital one–is far more acceptable to people.

Anyhow… I just don’t follow your extreme reaction to them… unless, as Scoble suggests, perhaps it’s an Apple “religion” issue. Does everyone have to hate them in order for you to be satisfied?

Robert, no, it ate about three of them, and when I tried to repost after waiting a bit, got a “duplicate comment” error.

So, $400 more than **what**??? A $684 MacBook?

You have heard of Dell right? Computer company, Round Rock Texas? Yeah. They make laptops too. Small ones that are cheaper much than a tablet. See, you forget, tablets compete with ALL laptops, not just MacBooks, and they don’t do real well now do they?

If tablets don’t work for you, fine. Yes, you sacrifice power for mobility–I don’t see *any* powerhouse machines under 4 lbs.

Wrong: http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/VGN-SZ381P/X (3.7 lbs)

Wrong: http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/VGN-SZ370P/C (3.7lbs)

Wrong: http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/VGN-SZ360P/C (3.7lbs)

and Wrong AGAIN: http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product/VGN-SZ390PW1 (3.7lbs)

Hmm…under 4 lbs and powerful. Sony’s are never cheap, but you aren’t getting le crippled specs for it. (wait folks, next reply will be “Well, it’s not under a thousand dollars. See Ryan change his specs. Dance Ryan, Dance)

And that weight difference isn’t just for “non-sitting postures”–it contributes greatly to the freedom of taking the laptop with you everywhere you go, rather than lugging around some 7 lb., 17″ desktop-replacement laptop. If you spend most of your time away from your desk–not standing necessarily, but just going from place to place throughout the day–then it makes a huge difference. If you’re not on the run so much and you have to have the absolute fastest laptop on the market and no other, you’ll pick the 17″ (or something else). They both have their place.

That’s funny, because I could SWEAR I take my 17″ beastie with me all over the damned place. Meetings. On Airplanes, (why yes, I even use it in coach, not in the emergency row, and I’m not a tiny guy.)

Wow, i didn’t realize I haven’t been doing this since I got my first 17″ laptop 3+ years ago. Wonder what I’ve actually been using then.

And yes, the tablet functionality is unquestionably useful for many people. If you are in meetings all the time, then keeping notes digitally (and perhaps recording the meetings) can offer a huge benefit, not to mention the advantages of doing work via pen vs. a keyboard.

What, pray tell does recording have to do with a tablet. Oooh, nothing.

I once sat through a meeting where a vendor came in and typed notes on his laptop the entire time. It was apparent that he was paying complete attention to us… yet every single person in the meeting commented on how inappropriate that seemed–we couldn’t tell if he was taking notes about us, typing an unrelated document, or catching up on email. Maybe it’s just a social norm, but taking handwritten notes–on a paper tablet or a digital one–is far more acceptable to people.

Right, because on a tablet, you OBVIOUSLY are TOTALLY focused on the task at hand, and couldn’t POSSIBLY be doing anything else. Maybe you and your co-workers need to work on your insecurity issues a bit more. How would not being able to see what he was writing on a tablet *while not paying attention” be magically less rude. What, ignoring you, or appearing to, is better? Please, that’s the lamest thing I’ve ever heard. What, you work for twelve year olds?

Anyhow… I just don’t follow your extreme reaction to them… unless, as Scoble suggests, perhaps it’s an Apple “religion” issue. Does everyone have to hate them in order for you to be satisfied?

You keep missing where I point out that Tablets do have their place, but this inane idea that they’re magically TEH BETTERER than keyboards is exactly as stupid as the idea that speech will take over keyboards as well. You also seem to be deliberately missing the parts where I’m not making this just an Apple thing, that’s you Ryan. All you.

Like I said, show me a Tablet PC that isn’t useless for anything other than lightweight note-taking or vertical market applications, (where Tablets *excel* by the way) and I’ll show you a product that will sell. What’s out there now is overpriced and underpowered, and your fevered defense of them doesn’t stand up to the fact that every tablet PC maker combined can’t outsell Apple’s *laptop* division alone, much less capture a serious share of the overall portable market. It’s pretty obvious that the Tablet PC has yet to find the problem it’s an answer for.

John:

The $1,084 was in response to “and don’t mind paying either $400 or more to do so” and the other $400 remarks you’ve continually made. Is $1,084 such a bad price? And… Dell’s Latitude D420 (3.0 lbs.) starts at about $1,200; the XPS M1210 (4.37 lbs.) also runs around $1,200 to start.

Those Sony models are quite impressive. The “hybrid graphics mode” is pretty unique, especially if it works as advertised. Power to weight ratio, it’s definitely top of the heap. Nonetheless, none of those has a 17″ screen. And, despite the dramatics of listing 4 examples, they really amount to one laptop model–the SZ–with a few differences in specs (hard drive capacity, processor speed, etc.); you might as well have listed all 22 SZs if you kept going.

What was so unclear about what I said? I never said the 17″ wasn’t mobile… but there’s a difference between “portable” and “luggable.” When our employees come to check out laptops, they routinely say “give me the lightest thing you have.” They don’t *WANT* to take the big, powerful beast.

Now as for the example of typing during a meeting… I have no clue why you’re arguing that. It’s just not socially acceptable for most folks, *period*. Condescend all you want (my insecurity issues? My word…), the fact of the matter is that taking notes by hand in meetings is seen by most people as being attentive. Typing on a noisy keyboard (albeit very modestly noisy) while other people are talking is considered RUDE. It may make no difference in terms of the quality of product or service whether the salesman was wearing a suit or a thong and a t-shirt with a picture of a middle finger extended in your direction, either… but face it, MOST people are going to respond differently.

I just don’t understand why your reaction is so strongly negative. A lot of people attend meetings and take notes… isn’t that a good market to target, beyond just the vertical market folks? Many of those same people have those Dell $1,200 laptops, and those aren’t powerhouses, either. It doesn’t matter–it does the job they need it to do, as most folks *don’t* need powerhouse laptops. Yet, with a tablet, they could take it to those meetings where the Dell wouldn’t be appropriate. And, from what I hear from our tablet users, it’s far more efficient to use a pen in many situations than the touchpad (which frustrates many people) or pointing stick (which frustrates probably even more people), and it’s a better alternative than an external mouse. Marking up documents is another great use, especially for folks that aren’t great typists, or simply prefer the pen-and-paper style approach.

You seem to want to pigeon-hole the usage model, and I just don’t get that. That’s why I suggested *perhaps* it’s an Apple “religion” issue (as Scoble also suggested), because I’ve encountered that sort of irrational anti-anything-Microsoft attitude before, and that often was the reason. I just don’t understand the extreme negativity.

Stephen F. had a kind of interesting post so I thought I’d respond:

Jobs saw lots of messes at Apple in terms of programs and losses and saw 2 barriers: an Economic one (a problem, that John C. Welsh and others have pointed out, still exists today) and a Human one. People are still struggling to accept the fully mobile, near invisible always present computer because they still want to minimize it as a tool: they want their computer at their desk where they can walk away from it, they begrudge their laptops and traveling with them, they’re annoying on planes even when you enjoy lugging them out to enjoy a movie or two while in the air… They want to have their laptops only at the right time… They don’t want to always have a tablet… or to need to know if they should be at their desk, have their laptop, or have their tablet… Yes, the technology has advanced and this barrier has eroded some… but then and now, the space for tablets is still largely vertical. Not just the device, but the applications… (Artists, despite the scenario oft-cited by tablet activists, really don’t want or need tablets unless they are specifically and always mobile… that two is a very, very small vertical market. Apple still needed to focus on desktop publishing/graphic design while becoming more of a larger consumer presence in the later half of the 90s…)… The real markets for tablets are: medical, warehousing, civil… And these markets really only need to use a handful of applications… (An even more mobile form factor frequently suits them.) The office space is growing as the technology progresses (it becomes a compelling form factor for notes, meetings, presentations, training… if it is a good all purpose device), but Apple is not strong in this space. The education market is also growing on, and here, true flexibility in the applications and usages is great. But it also seems to me that, yes, limiting and defining the form factor and its ideal usage scenarios is key. Maybe over the next couple of years Apple will feel it is appropriate. (I atill think that Apple will first do so through a “video iPod”-slash-iTV/universal remote controller-type device. But if they had an interesting school/ general purpose/ home media-type tablet … that could be cool… someday… After 5 years of this rumor, I don’t see why a random article in an obscure paper/mag from I’m-too-lazy-to-look with no credibility in covering nevermind predicting future Mac products is any reason to have this conversation or bemoan the lack of widespread tablet use. It’ll work when it works. Until then, somepeople are just cheerleading something that currently really isn’t worth cheerleading for… If you have the need, it can be filled… If you don’t like the current products and think it can be done better, you are probably right. That doesn’t mean someone else made a mistake for not taking the risk of making what you want a reality.

Those Sony models are quite impressive. The “hybrid graphics mode” is pretty unique, especially if it works as advertised. Power to weight ratio, it’s definitely top of the heap. Nonetheless, none of those has a 17″ screen. And, despite the dramatics of listing 4 examples, they really amount to one laptop model–the SZ–with a few differences in specs (hard drive capacity, processor speed, etc.); you might as well have listed all 22 SZs if you kept going.

Nice dodge, but you said:

“If tablets don’t work for you, fine. Yes, you sacrifice power for mobility–I don’t see *any* powerhouse machines under 4 lbs.”

Obviously you weren’t looking any harder than you needed to support your WAG that there’s no powerful machines under 4lbs.

What was so unclear about what I said? I never said the 17″ wasn’t mobile… but there’s a difference between “portable” and “luggable.” When our employees come to check out laptops, they routinely say “give me the lightest thing you have.” They don’t *WANT* to take the big, powerful beast.

Again, you said:

“And that weight difference isn’t just for “non-sitting postures”–it contributes greatly to the freedom of taking the laptop with you everywhere you go, rather than lugging around some 7 lb., 17″ desktop-replacement laptop.”

which implies that a 17″ isn’t portable. That’s wrong. I’m also willing to bet that if you give them a choice between two light laptops, one underpowered, one powerful, i.e. the Vaio, they’re not going to say “Wow, the weight’s the same, give me the crappy one”.

Now as for the example of typing during a meeting… I have no clue why you’re arguing that. It’s just not socially acceptable for most folks, *period*. Condescend all you want (my insecurity issues? My word…), the fact of the matter is that taking notes by hand in meetings is seen by most people as being attentive. Typing on a noisy keyboard (albeit very modestly noisy) while other people are talking is considered RUDE. It may make no difference in terms of the quality of product or service whether the salesman was wearing a suit or a thong and a t-shirt with a picture of a middle finger extended in your direction, either… but face it, MOST people are going to respond differently.

Yet someone tap-tap-taping on a tablet, with their head down, completely checked out is NOT rude? Maybe in your world, but quite honestly, the business world has grown and realized that laptops are not rude, but a way of life. I do presentations in front of 200 people, and damned near all of them have laptops. For me to make them put them away just so *I* was more comfortable would be unforgivably rude and stupid, as it now prevents them from taking notes in the way they find most comfortable.

I just don’t understand why your reaction is so strongly negative.

I don’t understand why you seem to be unwilling to accept that a Tablet is not a magic spell, and it’s not inherently better than a keyboard. You’re a total fanboy about them, and you think that because you like them that they’re the best tool for all, and seem bewildered that the vast majority of portable users don’t agree with you.

A lot of people attend meetings and take notes… isn’t that a good market to target, beyond just the vertical market folks?

I attend meetings and take notes, and have never wished for a tablet. There are evidently more of me than you based on sales. But I’m sure you’ll explain that away.

You seem to want to pigeon-hole the usage model, and I just don’t get that. That’s why I suggested *perhaps* it’s an Apple “religion” issue (as Scoble also suggested), because I’ve encountered that sort of irrational anti-anything-Microsoft attitude before, and that often was the reason. I just don’t understand the extreme negativity.

Of course, it’s all Apple Zealotry. That would be why I say that Active Directory is a FAR better directory service than Apple’s Open Directory. Or that Apple desparately needs its own version of Technet. Or that they should follow Microsoft’s example and have a separate IT tech conference in addition to the WWDC. Because I’m a mindless Apple Zealot. Right. That’s why I also point out Sony products as a counterpoint. Because I’m a Mindless Apple Zealot. I’m sure that tactic normally works well for you, but you should only try it on easier targets.

As far as the usage MODELS, well, no kidding. I look at where the tablet premium is worth it, and WHAT DO YOU KNOW. I find USAGE MODELS. Of course, you don’t mind pigeon-holing the usage models when it supports your point, but I’m sure that’s completely different.

I’m pointing at the Tablet’s New Clothes, and saying “No, it’s naked, and it needs to go on a diet too, and get rid of the moles.” You, like other tablet fanboys, get real hurty when people don’t do the tablet dance of joy. I suggest you learn to accept that people are going to not only disagree with you, but have reasons for it that they’ve thought about, and are not going to just change their mind because you really like Tablet PCs.

Geobbels, I find it really amusing that Robert used, as his sole source for this post, the SAME PERSON whose head he was screaming for earlier this year. It seems the Apple Tablet article was written by the same guy who wrote the “Vista having 60% of its code redone from scratch” article that made Robert froth so.

But I guess when Robert finds even a badly written, meandering article that speaks of the Tablet Cause in a positive way, he’s perfectly willing to forgive and forget in the name of his cause.

le sigh

“Obviously you weren’t looking any harder than you needed to support your WAG that there’s no powerful machines under 4lbs.”

I think you were the one that made the point about the 17″ screen being important. Furthermore, in the very next sentence, I specifically mentioned “some 7 lb., 17″” machine. The SZ is definitely more powerful than the older X41, but the main leg up it has on the X60 is the video card (the Core 2 Duo is not significantly faster than the Core Duo), and Photoshop doesn’t use that for its processing. Granted, there are content creation apps that use the GPU, and there is an advantage to having a dedicated memory bus and memory, but what kind of performance difference are we talking about here? 5%? 10%? You said you have a MacBook Pro… and unless you’re running XP or Vista on there, you’re running Photoshop through Rosetta. You seem content to run Photoshop at a huge performance disadvantage, and yet you complain about a laptop that, spec-wise, is only marginally slower than some of the best out there? It makes one wonder if the performance question is as big of one to you as you make it seem.

“…7 lb., 17″ desktop-replacement laptop.”

“…which implies that a 17″ isn’t portable.”

So “laptop” doesn’t imply portable? I even *explicitly* stated: “I never said the 17″ wasn’t mobile… but there’s a difference between ‘portable’ and ‘luggable.’” (In the context, “mobile” is the word I’m using to describe what you mean by “portable.”)

“Yet someone tap-tap-taping on a tablet, with their head down, completely checked out is NOT rude?”

If you think tablets are about “tap-tap-taping,” you haven’t used one much. Taking notes in a meeting on a tablet is really no different than taking them on paper. Is taking notes on paper considered rude???

“Maybe in your world, but quite honestly, the business world has grown…”

Again, condescend all you want. I guess my industry doesn’t count as part of “the business world.”

“I do presentations in front of 200 people, and damned near all of them have laptops. For me to make them put them away just so *I* was more comfortable would be unforgivably rude and stupid, as it now prevents them from taking notes in the way they find most comfortable.”

That wasn’t the situation. If *you* were the one who was talking while looking down, typing away on your laptop (which, in this case, wouldn’t be connected to a projector), with the audience wondering what you were doing, I think many in the audience would also think that is rude.

“I don’t understand why you seem to be unwilling to accept that a Tablet is not a magic spell, and it’s not inherently better than a keyboard.”

For some situations, it *is* inherently better than a keyboard. And, for many people, these are not uncommon situations. But you make it sound like it’s an either-or question–that’s not true with a convertible. You get both. What’s *wrong* with that sort of flexibility???

“That would be why I say that Active Directory is a FAR better directory service than Apple’s Open Directory.”

Duh. I always am telling people that GarageBand is better than Windows Sound Recorder. (Just joking

Don’t get me wrong… I would love tablets to start carrying high-end video cards (I already mentioned this… it should happen with Vista), which is really about all they are missing. So answer me this… if, say, a tablet is released that has the fastest mobile processor (with the fastest FSB) available, as much RAM as any other, supports the fastest hard drives on the market, and a competitive price… then are you going to buy one? You seem to want things both ways–you say that tablets aren’t inherently better than a keyboard… so why, then, do you have a Wacom tablet? You say tablets are only good for vertical markets like medical, but are upset because they don’t make one that performs well enough heavy graphics apps? And yet you seem just fine with a laptop that suffers a horrible performance penalty (on OS X) for some of the biggest apps in the graphics market?

Again, I don’t get it.

I think you were the one that made the point about the 17″ screen being important. Furthermore, in the very next sentence, I specifically mentioned “some 7 lb., 17″” machine. The SZ is definitely more powerful than the older X41, but the main leg up it has on the X60 is the video card (the Core 2 Duo is not significantly faster than the Core Duo), and Photoshop doesn’t use that for its processing.

Le SIGH. Ryan, Again, I shall QUOTE YOUR OWN WORDS:

“If tablets don’t work for you, fine. Yes, you sacrifice power for mobility–I don’t see *any* powerhouse machines under 4 lbs.”

You said that. Specifically. No powerhouse machines under 4lbs. Just admit you were wrong and move on. You’ll feel better. really. Your tech claims are ridiculous. Testing has shown that thanks to the SIMD and other improvemens improvements, (and Photoshop does use SIMD) the Core 2 can be up to 30%-40% faster then the Core Duo with Photoshop. Maybe in your world 30%-40% isn’t significant, but it is in most everyone else’s. As well, there’s a lot going in the video card these days, like OS operations, that free up the CPU for application ops, which does make everything run faster.

So “laptop” doesn’t imply portable? I even *explicitly* stated: “I never said the 17″ wasn’t mobile… but there’s a difference between ‘portable’ and ‘luggable.’” (In the context, “mobile” is the word I’m using to describe what you mean by “portable.”)

Personal opinion. My 17″ is HIGHLY portable. You may feel different but “feelings” don’t in fact apply to everyone. I know a lot of people who are highly mobile with a 17″. It’s not a 20 pound kaypro.

If you think tablets are about “tap-tap-taping,” you haven’t used one much. Taking notes in a meeting on a tablet is really no different than taking them on paper. Is taking notes on paper considered rude???

Plastic on plastic is not as silent as plastic on paper. I’ve been around a lot of tablets, and since i’m not used to them, I’m more aware of their idiosyncrasies. As well, if you’re busy staring at the screen, and not at the people who are talking, quite possibly to you, then yes, that is rude, whether paper or no.

Again, condescend all you want. I guess my industry doesn’t count as part of “the business world.”

If you get your panties in a bunch over someone taking notes on a laptop, you may be in business, but you’re not terribly professional.

That wasn’t the situation. If *you* were the one who was talking while looking down, typing away on your laptop (which, in this case, wouldn’t be connected to a projector), with the audience wondering what you were doing, I think many in the audience would also think that is rude.

But since I can type properly, I don’t have to look down constantly. I can look up at the person speaking. In fact, while I have to look down sometimes, it’s FAR less than someone who’s writing. As well, how would a tablet allow the audience to see what I was doing? What, it’s projecting what I’m writing out of its own back?

For some situations, it *is* inherently better than a keyboard. And, for many people, these are not uncommon situations. But you make it sound like it’s an either-or question–that’s not true with a convertible. You get both. What’s *wrong* with that sort of flexibility???

Yes, for SOME situations it’s better. Specifically quick note-taking and limited vertical market use where input is limited and a keyboard is impractical. That’s what I’ve been saying. Where I completely disagree with you is your contention that the $400 premium that a tablet imposes over a laptop with similar specs is worth it for the vast majority of users. Obviously the vast majority of users agree with me considering that with 5 major PC vendors selling tablets, their COMBINED SALES are no better than Apple’s TOTAL laptop sales. *You* make it sound like this is something everyone wants or SHOULD want, but that’s obviously not been the case. You also made most of your supporting arguments NOT around pen input, but around size and weight, both of which are, as I have shown repeatedly, solvable without any tablet functionality whatsoever.

So answer me this… if, say, a tablet is released that has the fastest mobile processor (with the fastest FSB) available, as much RAM as any other, supports the fastest hard drives on the market, and a competitive price… then are you going to buy one?

No. My workflow would not benefit in the slightest from one, nor would most people’s. Most of my workflow is writing and a good bit of scripting. Heavy writing isn’t comfortable with a pen, and you’d have to be insane to program with one.

You seem to want things both ways–you say that tablets aren’t inherently better than a keyboard… so why, then, do you have a Wacom tablet?

For very specific uses that I don’t do all the time. Note my Wacom is portable between my laptops and my desktops, whereas a tablet is not portable in the same way. As well, my 17″ MacBook will smoke your X41 on any graphics application operation you care to pick.

You say tablets are only good for vertical markets like medical, but are upset because they don’t make one that performs well enough heavy graphics apps?

You seem to like strawmen a lot. Yes. Because vertical markets like the medical profession make heavy use of taking short notes while standing. I’d be silly not to point out this is an ideal situation for a tablet. It’s also one where the performance penalties don’t really matter, and when you look you find, SHOCK, that the medical market IS making use of tablets. Isn’t logic fun! It is TABLET SUPPORTERS that keep making them out to be great for graphics pros, yet then admitting they’re all rather underpowered for that task.

And yet you seem just fine with a laptop that suffers a horrible performance penalty (on OS X) for some of the biggest apps in the graphics market?

Snerk. Right. You’re now talking about Adobe and *Rosetta* and trying to make a *software* problem which Adobe has already given a general date for it’s solving, (Q1 2007), and has already released software that isn’t hampered by Rosetta, (Acrobat 8). You also conveniently leave out Video editing, and the software running in OS X for that is most certainly not hampered by Rosetta.

Again, I don’t get it.

Try not using fanboyism as the primary thrust of your arguments, and you’ll get it more often.

This is getting ridiculous.

“Snerk. Right. You’re now talking about Adobe and *Rosetta* and trying to make a *software* problem which Adobe has already given a general date for it’s solving, (Q1 2007), and has already released software that isn’t hampered by Rosetta, (Acrobat 8).”

And you’re accuse me of dodging? I’ll distill this:

You (composite of your statements): performance is of primary importance to me and cannot consider a poorly-performing system

You: CS2 user, Intel Mac user

But CS2 on an Intel Mac? That means emulation mode (no SIMD), huge performance penalty regardless of hardware. Contradiction.

Did I say it was aimed at graphics pros? No. Did I describe in detail common situations where many people could find them useful? Yes. But no, they’re only useful in vertical markets. More like “le choke.” And please… don’t tell me you type out notes while giving presentations. (And yes, you can certainly display what you’re writing with a tablet–hook up a projector… I think someone else here mentioned how useful that can be, already. I thought you said you’ve been around them a lot?)

And… for the last time… $1,084… let me get my calculator… oh wait, that’s not $400 more than a $1,200 Dell. But please, continue to use that non-fact ad nauseam.

As you said, even if it had great performance, you wouldn’t buy one anyways–even though it simply gives you the *FLEXIBILITY of BOTH a keyboard and tablet* (which you already use), so what’s the point??? I’m sure if your MBP had a tablet built-in, you’d never use it, right? Yeah, right.

You (composite of your statements): performance is of primary importance to me and cannot consider a poorly-performing system

But CS2 on an Intel Mac? That means emulation mode (no SIMD), huge performance penalty regardless of hardware. Contradiction.

Today class, we learn about the dangers of assuming you know the other person. Me no primarily CS2 user.

Me: OS X admin, Windows Admin. (turns around, yep, there’s my Active Directory class cert), and part – time Linux Admin, running XP/Vista/Ubuntu in virtual Machines on my MacBook.

You’re also trying to turn this into a Tablet vs Mac issue. That’s not the case, but it’s the only way you can come out anything ahead, and you know what, I’ll bet that CS2 in Rosetta, (which is NOT emulation, try actually reading some valid data on it instead of what the other fanboys tell you), on my Macbook is STILL faster than on your X41. So even in a translation environment, I’ve got a faster CS2 Machine. However, that’s not the point. You can’t point at any tablet PC that is a better overall fit as a portable for a designer than a fast laptop. You can’t do it by limiting your search solely to Macs, and you sure can’t do it with Wintel OEMs.

Oh, and by the way, Rosetta does support Altivec, the PPC vector architecture. So you’re wrong three times: 1) Not emulation. 2) Not called SIMD on PPC. 3) Rosetta supports Altivec.

Did I say it was aimed at graphics pros? No. Did I describe in detail common situations where many people could find them useful? Yes. But no, they’re only useful in vertical markets. More like “le choke.” And please… don’t tell me you type out notes while giving presentations. (And yes, you can certainly display what you’re writing with a tablet–hook up a projector… I think someone else here mentioned how useful that can be, already. I thought you said you’ve been around them a lot?)

Again, a narrow vertical market is simply not an intelligent investment for Apple, especially since none of those vertical markets are part of their core markets. Actually, I DO type notes when i give presos. See, on a Mac, PowerPoint and Keynote both have advanced presenter tools that allow me to do this. The slides are displayed on the projector, the speaker tools, including notes that I can edit while talking are displayed on my laptop. With PowerPoint 2004, I can easily jump between entire sections of my preso if I think the audience will benefit, and all the audience sees is the slides.

And… for the last time… $1,084… let me get my calculator… oh wait, that’s not $400 more than a $1,200 Dell. But please, continue to use that non-fact ad nauseam.

Oh please, hypocritical much? You care to compare EVERY laptop out there with similar specs to the X41? you’d have to look, since other than tablets, no one’s running old crap like that, but I can, and have found sub 1000 laptops with equal or better specs than the X41. You haven’t been really right on a single tech point yet. I still love the “No fast laptops under three pounds” statement. That’s a gem it is. Try Google, it saves you from these little problems.

As you said, even if it had great performance, you wouldn’t buy one anyways–even though it simply gives you the *FLEXIBILITY of BOTH a keyboard and tablet* (which you already use), so what’s the point??? I’m sure if your MBP had a tablet built-in, you’d never use it, right? Yeah, right.

You’re right. My workflow would not benefit in the slightest from a tablet, so why should I buy one. If I got one for free when I next upgrade my laptop, would i use it? Occasionally, but only in things like Photoshop. Sure as hell not for note-taking, I find the inability to multitask that longhand forces upon me to be far too limiting. My fingers know how to type, why would I want to give that up?

You’re just getting whiny because when you have to actually just support the tablet functions, the best you can currently do is to say “Vertical Markets (which have them in abundance already and are most Tablet sales), quick notes while standing, and way underpowered graphics machines.” The funny thing about that last one is that most designers I know, (and I know a few on the mac and windows sides) don’t want to draw on the screen, because they don’t want their hand getting in the way of what they work on. The like having the tablet out of the line of sight, and two uncluttered monitors to work on.

So really, the idea the designers are going to jump on tablets, (come the day when they aren’t underpowerd), doesn’t really have a lot of backing other than Tablet Fanboys.