Hey Microsoft: look to Krugle for your search woes (at least for your developers)

It’s just amazing to me that Microsoft has continued with a failed search strategy, even after it’s apparent to EVERYONE (including Microsoft’s CFO) that what they are doing isn’t working. Hint: it ain’t gonna work, even if they flush another billion or two down the “copy Google” toilet.

So, what should their strategy be? Go for a little cut against Google. Don’t try to attack Google’s castle head on. That won’t work. Instead, flank them.

Start by surrounding Google with lots of niche engines. Technorati showed the way three years ago, even though Google has largely caught up now, by doing Blog Search, which was something that Google didn’t do well (still doesn’t really: if someone wants to find a blog on, say, Scrapbooking, what search engine really gives a nice set of blogs? Neither Technorati, nor Google’s blog search engines do.

But, there’s another engine that’s showing a way to start building a more successful search strategy: Krugle.

Buy it, and buy it now.

Why? Cause it’s a search engine for developers. Go talk to Steve Ballmer about that one. Remember him screaming “developers, developers, developers?” Well, Krugle delivers.

Krugle does something demonstratable that Google does not do: searches code and indexes it and helps developers in a real, demonstrable way.

Here’s an example. If you’re a Windows programmer you probably will need to look up some API name, like “DestroyWindow,” to learn more about it. Krugle’s search for DestroyWindow not only has links to the proper MSDN page, but shows off book mentions and code, and links to examples of its use in code.

I keep hearing about Krugle from developers. They tell me it rocks for looking up stuff. Need shopping cart code? Search for it on Krugle. Now compare that to Google/Yahoo/MSN.

Now, I can hear you now “developers don’t matter to search engines.”

Oh, yeah? When I visit Google there’s a huge plasma screen that shows every Google search done in real-time (it only shows that a search was done, not what the search was about). Everytime I look at that screen Redmond, WA does more Google searches than most other large cities in the world and does more Google searches than the entire continent of Africa.

Hint: there’s not much in Redmond except for Microsoft. So, what are all those Microsofties doing on Google?

I bet they are doing searches for technical information and looking for code samples, error names, algorithm tips, and API names.

I remember talking to tons of developers on the Windows team about why they love Google: it was the best engine three years ago, by far, to look up information on Microsoft’s own Web site!

That brand love for Google spread from geeks and developers to others in society. Don’t underestimate the influence that developers have here. YOUR OWN DEVELOPERS MICROSOFT!!!

So, start small. Don’t try to be Google. Why don’t you buy Krugle, get a position in search, then build on that?

It sure couldn’t hurt. What you’re doing now sure ain’t working.

Comments

  1. No, I’m sure Krugle is better today, it’s been around a while longer. Maybe it can stay ahead, maybe not. I’m just not sure that code search is the best niche to target if “not copying Google” is the point.

  2. No, I’m sure Krugle is better today, it’s been around a while longer. Maybe it can stay ahead, maybe not. I’m just not sure that code search is the best niche to target if “not copying Google” is the point.

  3. yeah..

    scoble..you are right..The only way to grab search market share is by making many vertical search engines and by innovating not by kissing goog’s ass

    Tapping on the google’s head with hammer won’t work..only way is to pull it’s legs(brand value)..release products that are nerd friendly and increase the brand value of live.com.Nobdy even knows a search engine with name ‘live’ exists.

    whatif the results on live.com were presented as conversations(techmeme style),will u be not impressed?

    It high time everybody talks about live.com
    buy facebook(heavy monetization can be applied in this niche;digg(I am not a big fan of it,btw to show msn ads..nobody even knows that adCenter exists)

    Tracking MSFT is interesting in many areas,but not in this areas..why?because steve ballmer doesn’t know what people want and the value of community.

    It has been an year Gary Flake went to MSFT..I don’t understand what is he doing ther(I think he is the man running the show)

    what is MSFT doing by keeping 30 billion$ in the pocket..Biting it’s time?

  4. yeah..

    scoble..you are right..The only way to grab search market share is by making many vertical search engines and by innovating not by kissing goog’s ass

    Tapping on the google’s head with hammer won’t work..only way is to pull it’s legs(brand value)..release products that are nerd friendly and increase the brand value of live.com.Nobdy even knows a search engine with name ‘live’ exists.

    whatif the results on live.com were presented as conversations(techmeme style),will u be not impressed?

    It high time everybody talks about live.com
    buy facebook(heavy monetization can be applied in this niche;digg(I am not a big fan of it,btw to show msn ads..nobody even knows that adCenter exists)

    Tracking MSFT is interesting in many areas,but not in this areas..why?because steve ballmer doesn’t know what people want and the value of community.

    It has been an year Gary Flake went to MSFT..I don’t understand what is he doing ther(I think he is the man running the show)

    what is MSFT doing by keeping 30 billion$ in the pocket..Biting it’s time?

  5. Speaking of scrappin’ (I can’t believe I just typed that) a good “blog” site of sorts is Two Peas in a Bucket. I always thought “Two Peas in a PodCast” was a good name for a podcast about scrapbooking. Just go to a convention and audio tape some vendors / excited attendees. Show pretty much writes itself.

    idea ™ BlogReader 2007

  6. Speaking of scrappin’ (I can’t believe I just typed that) a good “blog” site of sorts is Two Peas in a Bucket. I always thought “Two Peas in a PodCast” was a good name for a podcast about scrapbooking. Just go to a convention and audio tape some vendors / excited attendees. Show pretty much writes itself.

    idea ™ BlogReader 2007

  7. This is a quote from Ballmer (June 2005)

    “In the next six months, we’ll catch Google in terms of relevancy.” – Steve Ballmer.

    So much for that happening! Ballmer just keeps on losing the plot.

  8. This is a quote from Ballmer (June 2005)

    “In the next six months, we’ll catch Google in terms of relevancy.” – Steve Ballmer.

    So much for that happening! Ballmer just keeps on losing the plot.

  9. Steve Ballmer is a big sweaty gorilla. When I grow up I want to be just like him!

    Oh and those code/developer speciality search engines looks really useful, will have to try them out. I currently use google and find it pretty hit and miss on finding decent coding related results.

  10. Steve Ballmer is a big sweaty gorilla. When I grow up I want to be just like him!

    Oh and those code/developer speciality search engines looks really useful, will have to try them out. I currently use google and find it pretty hit and miss on finding decent coding related results.

  11. Google’s Code Search doesn’t give me the links to MSDN and other tech pages that tell me about the API and it’s syntax. That’s where Krugle stands out.

    On the other hand, Krugle isn’t finished. Why doesn’t a search for DestroyWindow give me relevant links to Raymond Chen’s blog where the really interesting analyses of the Win32 API is? His and other blogs are shockful of juicy discussions about the API. I should be able to find it all through one search. Google is no better though.

  12. Google’s Code Search doesn’t give me the links to MSDN and other tech pages that tell me about the API and it’s syntax. That’s where Krugle stands out.

    On the other hand, Krugle isn’t finished. Why doesn’t a search for DestroyWindow give me relevant links to Raymond Chen’s blog where the really interesting analyses of the Win32 API is? His and other blogs are shockful of juicy discussions about the API. I should be able to find it all through one search. Google is no better though.

  13. It failed my first test. Try a couple of WPF functions – MeasureOverride, ArrangeOverride. These are all over MSDN but Krugle reports no results.

    Not impressed.

  14. It failed my first test. Try a couple of WPF functions – MeasureOverride, ArrangeOverride. These are all over MSDN but Krugle reports no results.

    Not impressed.

  15. I agree. Google kind of sucks when it comes to verticals. (And personally, I like what Technorati is doing better, but it’s obvious that they need a better server infrastructure).

    I think that as time goes on this is going to become a pretty big deal – searching “the web” won’t be nearly as important as searching a subset of it. Code. Blogs. Science. News. Government Publications. The list is endless. A really well done resource for any of these (which would include a search function) could chip away at Google.

    Or take a big pet peeve of mine. This passed Christmas season, I was shopping for a HDTV. For any given search, I was interested in:

    1. Information about HDTV technology.
    2. Comparative reviews on different models.
    3. Price shopping.
    4. Technical support for the TV I just bought.

    Every search on Google I did turned up mostly retail sites with near-identical manufacturer blurbs on the things. If someone were to build a search engine that segregated the kind of information listed above, I’d probably start going to that over Google.

  16. I agree. Google kind of sucks when it comes to verticals. (And personally, I like what Technorati is doing better, but it’s obvious that they need a better server infrastructure).

    I think that as time goes on this is going to become a pretty big deal – searching “the web” won’t be nearly as important as searching a subset of it. Code. Blogs. Science. News. Government Publications. The list is endless. A really well done resource for any of these (which would include a search function) could chip away at Google.

    Or take a big pet peeve of mine. This passed Christmas season, I was shopping for a HDTV. For any given search, I was interested in:

    1. Information about HDTV technology.
    2. Comparative reviews on different models.
    3. Price shopping.
    4. Technical support for the TV I just bought.

    Every search on Google I did turned up mostly retail sites with near-identical manufacturer blurbs on the things. If someone were to build a search engine that segregated the kind of information listed above, I’d probably start going to that over Google.

  17. Robert, You nailed it! Focusing on vertical search is the way to go. Microsoft must win a few key markets, and do OK in the general search market.

    My vertical focus would be on Mobile Search, Local Search, and Classified Ad Search. I think those are HUGE markets with no clear leader.

    The consumer web search business is HUGE. Microsoft could make a billion dollars with just 10% to 15% market share. Yes, it is that big. You don’t get the bragging rights for being the market share leader, but you can make handsome profits with just a small market share.

    Look at Apple. They have about 5% share of the personal computer market and they do just fine. Great brand, good products, loyal customers, and very profitable. What is wrong with that?

    I wrote a blog on this today http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html

    Don Dodge

  18. Robert, You nailed it! Focusing on vertical search is the way to go. Microsoft must win a few key markets, and do OK in the general search market.

    My vertical focus would be on Mobile Search, Local Search, and Classified Ad Search. I think those are HUGE markets with no clear leader.

    The consumer web search business is HUGE. Microsoft could make a billion dollars with just 10% to 15% market share. Yes, it is that big. You don’t get the bragging rights for being the market share leader, but you can make handsome profits with just a small market share.

    Look at Apple. They have about 5% share of the personal computer market and they do just fine. Great brand, good products, loyal customers, and very profitable. What is wrong with that?

    I wrote a blog on this today http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html

    Don Dodge

  19. Mr. Scoble, we’re doing vertical search here at the American Association of Petroleum Geologist with the same open-source Lucene code underlying Krugle. It is AWESOME stuff. Mr. Dodge is right… Doing vertical search well over time and you wind up just owning the danged thing. That’s what we do and we’ve made a nice “little” business out of it. Energy companies need access to the info we have behind our paywall. We’ve added GIS, map-based search interfaces as well as traditional keywords.

    My $.02… Soon, people will most definitely find searching through interfaces like that MetaCarta has… are FAR superior to keywords alone. That’s why these mashups are so hot.

    You DO remember us right? The first corporate podcast anywhere (at least according to Rick Segal and WIRED)…. Yeah, we’re THOSE guys :) We may sound boring but we’re having a blast! (right here in little ole Tulsa)

  20. Mr. Scoble, we’re doing vertical search here at the American Association of Petroleum Geologist with the same open-source Lucene code underlying Krugle. It is AWESOME stuff. Mr. Dodge is right… Doing vertical search well over time and you wind up just owning the danged thing. That’s what we do and we’ve made a nice “little” business out of it. Energy companies need access to the info we have behind our paywall. We’ve added GIS, map-based search interfaces as well as traditional keywords.

    My $.02… Soon, people will most definitely find searching through interfaces like that MetaCarta has… are FAR superior to keywords alone. That’s why these mashups are so hot.

    You DO remember us right? The first corporate podcast anywhere (at least according to Rick Segal and WIRED)…. Yeah, we’re THOSE guys :) We may sound boring but we’re having a blast! (right here in little ole Tulsa)

  21. Eric, you came to the right place on Scoble’s blog with your HDTV example. We at retrevo have been working on the consumer electronics vertical search for 18 months. Go, check out http://www.retrevo.com for information along all the dimensions you mentioned. Want to understand HDTVs, want to understand what to look for, what are the top HDTVS, want more in-depth reviews of specific products from publishers and blog and finally trying to figure something out on your HDTV or fix an issue, Retrevo has all the answers for you. By no means are we done. We are constantly adding and improving the product, so please be patient with us. We have a lot more coming in next few months.

    Also check out the Retrevo Gang on Scobleizer. We do a periodic video-cast and talk about interesting gadgets, trends etc.

    And yes, Microsoft has to stop doing “me-too” and stop talking about “we will do better generic search than Google”. They need to be creative about their approach. Picking some interesting verticals / domains and partnering with the right startups is one of the ways to counter the threat and offer a superior experience to whoever is left on MSN. Their mrket share of search is decreasing gradually. If they wait for too long, they may not have a problem to worry about. Once a user is gone, it is hard to bring him/her back.

  22. Eric, you came to the right place on Scoble’s blog with your HDTV example. We at retrevo have been working on the consumer electronics vertical search for 18 months. Go, check out http://www.retrevo.com for information along all the dimensions you mentioned. Want to understand HDTVs, want to understand what to look for, what are the top HDTVS, want more in-depth reviews of specific products from publishers and blog and finally trying to figure something out on your HDTV or fix an issue, Retrevo has all the answers for you. By no means are we done. We are constantly adding and improving the product, so please be patient with us. We have a lot more coming in next few months.

    Also check out the Retrevo Gang on Scobleizer. We do a periodic video-cast and talk about interesting gadgets, trends etc.

    And yes, Microsoft has to stop doing “me-too” and stop talking about “we will do better generic search than Google”. They need to be creative about their approach. Picking some interesting verticals / domains and partnering with the right startups is one of the ways to counter the threat and offer a superior experience to whoever is left on MSN. Their mrket share of search is decreasing gradually. If they wait for too long, they may not have a problem to worry about. Once a user is gone, it is hard to bring him/her back.

  23. I tend to agree w/ Matt on this. The tools that Google has enabled many micro niche’s experts to maximize is really impressive. This allows the experts to do what they do best. I believe that this will also help google in the future to better define their ranking algorithims by combining rankings w/ CSE’s .

  24. I tend to agree w/ Matt on this. The tools that Google has enabled many micro niche’s experts to maximize is really impressive. This allows the experts to do what they do best. I believe that this will also help google in the future to better define their ranking algorithims by combining rankings w/ CSE’s .

  25. Eric:
    I have that problem a lot too — using google to search for information about stuff that you buy typically gives results of places to buy said things, not information about them.

    Try adding -buy -store -retail -$ to your search query, that helps filter to more reasonable results.

  26. Eric:
    I have that problem a lot too — using google to search for information about stuff that you buy typically gives results of places to buy said things, not information about them.

    Try adding -buy -store -retail -$ to your search query, that helps filter to more reasonable results.

  27. Joe:
    I’m sorry that you didn’t find the content you were hoping to on the MSDN pages (in response to your Krugle search today for WPF functions like MeasureOverride and ArrangeOverride). I can tell you that deep coverage of both MSDN and Codeplex is a *VERY* high priority project for us, and we’ve invested a lot of time and effort on this already.

    As you may know, our initial focus for indexing code has been on OpenSource projects that host via SVN/CVS. We felt that doing a good job on this was more important than quickly downloading, unpacking and indexing all available code from archives, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, particularly the integration between code, project and tech pages via our related results area and the way we represent code files in the context of their repository trees.

    Now that this is working well, we’ve been aggressively pursuing code archives and developing an infrastructure for keeping them up to date, particularly those from MSDN and Codeplex. Look for dramatic improvements in these types of content in our next major release.

    On the Tech Pages side, our crawling efforts were initially focused on static web pages found to have technical merit. We’ve supplemented this with focused crawling of key technical domains and deep crawling of our partners’ web sites. Doing a good job of crawling these partner sites is more technically challenging, as the content is typically served up via database queries. Accordingly, we’ve had to adapt our crawling technology to this task as well. Again, look for dramatic improvements here in future releases.

    In summary, you’ve put your finger on a key area of content (both code and web pages) that we are currently devoting a lot of energy to. We’re making a lot of progress every day on this, and I hope that you and our other users will be happy with the results.

    Thanks for the input,

    - Chris

  28. Joe:
    I’m sorry that you didn’t find the content you were hoping to on the MSDN pages (in response to your Krugle search today for WPF functions like MeasureOverride and ArrangeOverride). I can tell you that deep coverage of both MSDN and Codeplex is a *VERY* high priority project for us, and we’ve invested a lot of time and effort on this already.

    As you may know, our initial focus for indexing code has been on OpenSource projects that host via SVN/CVS. We felt that doing a good job on this was more important than quickly downloading, unpacking and indexing all available code from archives, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, particularly the integration between code, project and tech pages via our related results area and the way we represent code files in the context of their repository trees.

    Now that this is working well, we’ve been aggressively pursuing code archives and developing an infrastructure for keeping them up to date, particularly those from MSDN and Codeplex. Look for dramatic improvements in these types of content in our next major release.

    On the Tech Pages side, our crawling efforts were initially focused on static web pages found to have technical merit. We’ve supplemented this with focused crawling of key technical domains and deep crawling of our partners’ web sites. Doing a good job of crawling these partner sites is more technically challenging, as the content is typically served up via database queries. Accordingly, we’ve had to adapt our crawling technology to this task as well. Again, look for dramatic improvements here in future releases.

    In summary, you’ve put your finger on a key area of content (both code and web pages) that we are currently devoting a lot of energy to. We’re making a lot of progress every day on this, and I hope that you and our other users will be happy with the results.

    Thanks for the input,

    - Chris

  29. Matt,
    We’ve seen and played with Google’s custom search engine and also think it is cool, albeit not something you could use to build Krugle. Search is different for developers and Krugle is the only search engine designed for how developers really use search – as an exploratory tool. Syntactic awareness is why vertical search engines provide high value – for Krugle, this means relevancy rankings based on algorithms which use and understand code characteristics and project activity – far better results.

  30. Matt,
    We’ve seen and played with Google’s custom search engine and also think it is cool, albeit not something you could use to build Krugle. Search is different for developers and Krugle is the only search engine designed for how developers really use search – as an exploratory tool. Syntactic awareness is why vertical search engines provide high value – for Krugle, this means relevancy rankings based on algorithms which use and understand code characteristics and project activity – far better results.

  31. Thanks Robert,

    I think that Google Code will still be first port of call for a code search for me. It does things like drill down into zip files, so you can grab a chunk of code, and all the associated code straight away.

    Looking up the MSDN pages and so on aren’t a big problem for me. A regular Google search scores these highly.

    There are also things like searching by license type, which I can’t see on Krugle.

    That said, it’s another tool in the box. It just might be that where Google misses something, this picks it up.

  32. Thanks Robert,

    I think that Google Code will still be first port of call for a code search for me. It does things like drill down into zip files, so you can grab a chunk of code, and all the associated code straight away.

    Looking up the MSDN pages and so on aren’t a big problem for me. A regular Google search scores these highly.

    There are also things like searching by license type, which I can’t see on Krugle.

    That said, it’s another tool in the box. It just might be that where Google misses something, this picks it up.

  33. Scoble, in an application to MS’s Search Champs a couple years ago I proposed that vertical search would be a good differentiator for MS: it would be especially useful for Enterprise Search projects that need to search high-value content for their respective vertical, with perhaps some categorization thrown in.

    As a search engine professional in an enterprise, I can attest to the need for such capability.

    Needless to say, I wasn’t invited to Redmond. Now Google’s Custom Search Engine capabilities are improving, and may provide a path to easy vertical search development…

  34. Scoble, in an application to MS’s Search Champs a couple years ago I proposed that vertical search would be a good differentiator for MS: it would be especially useful for Enterprise Search projects that need to search high-value content for their respective vertical, with perhaps some categorization thrown in.

    As a search engine professional in an enterprise, I can attest to the need for such capability.

    Needless to say, I wasn’t invited to Redmond. Now Google’s Custom Search Engine capabilities are improving, and may provide a path to easy vertical search development…

  35. Hey Chris and Steve, can you give some ideas of your code search technology? Surely you guys did more than just downloading the CVS/SVN from sourgeforge and indexing archieves.

    And, would you want to be bought by MS?

  36. Hey Chris and Steve, can you give some ideas of your code search technology? Surely you guys did more than just downloading the CVS/SVN from sourgeforge and indexing archieves.

    And, would you want to be bought by MS?

  37. Isaac:
    We use OpenSource technologies such as Hadoop, Nutch and Lucene for crawling, indexing and searching web pages and code. For a few more details, check out as well as the Krugle blog .

    - Chris

  38. Isaac:
    We use OpenSource technologies such as Hadoop, Nutch and Lucene for crawling, indexing and searching web pages and code. For a few more details, check out as well as the Krugle blog .

    - Chris

  39. I have a better idea for MS.
    Get out of search altogether, make a scaled down version web version of Office (which would make Google’s Docs and Sheets look like the garbage that it is), and make a deal with Google to host on Google’s services.

    The relationship between MS Web Office and Google would be akin to that between Seinfeld and NBC. Both would make huge money. (And save money as each wouldn’t waste money competing with the other.)

  40. I have a better idea for MS.
    Get out of search altogether, make a scaled down version web version of Office (which would make Google’s Docs and Sheets look like the garbage that it is), and make a deal with Google to host on Google’s services.

    The relationship between MS Web Office and Google would be akin to that between Seinfeld and NBC. Both would make huge money. (And save money as each wouldn’t waste money competing with the other.)

  41. Geezo Robert!

    It must be time for another Intervention, this time with Deprogramming.
    *Hint* You don’t work for Bill anymore….

    Microsoft is in trouble, but that trouble is from inside the company. Their attempts to crush competition by introducing new toys as you point out in the case of search is an abysmal failure.

    When your own people are using third party search engines to find things on their own company’s website, you would think that somebody would notice.

    The Internet has changed “business as usual” in such profound ways that their attempts to buy the top spot at the table by moving into a segment of the applications market is having only marginal success.
    Let’s look at keeping track of your money in the business arena.

    Consider their buying and rebranding Great Plains which was a DOS accounting package that they waited until the folks at GP had rewritten to work on windows, then scooped it up, despite having said that they would not be moving into applications that their ‘partners’ were already in.

    On the personal computing front, Looking at QuickBooks which MS tried to buy but was stopped on anti-trust grounds,(MS Money is just not a contender) their new operating system Vista, is such a radical departure that QuickBooks had to issue an advisory to it’s customers that Vista will break the software they already own.
    http://www.quickbooks.com/Helpcenter/Vista/VistaQb2006.aspx

    As for your advice that they do something as daring as buying Krugle, is lunacy of the highest order. The first stumbling block is that it is open source, which even at the 11th hour of the office party remains heresy of the first water.

    The second stumbling block is belief that Microsoft could actually improve an open source application. Not because of talent, but because their belief that ActiveX and .net are the only true paths to salvation.

    The third and perhaps the most important stumbling block would be having to negotiate a severence package for Chris Locke, the official blogger for Krugle.

    Trust me, this will hurt more than any other thing that Microsoft might do.

  42. Geezo Robert!

    It must be time for another Intervention, this time with Deprogramming.
    *Hint* You don’t work for Bill anymore….

    Microsoft is in trouble, but that trouble is from inside the company. Their attempts to crush competition by introducing new toys as you point out in the case of search is an abysmal failure.

    When your own people are using third party search engines to find things on their own company’s website, you would think that somebody would notice.

    The Internet has changed “business as usual” in such profound ways that their attempts to buy the top spot at the table by moving into a segment of the applications market is having only marginal success.
    Let’s look at keeping track of your money in the business arena.

    Consider their buying and rebranding Great Plains which was a DOS accounting package that they waited until the folks at GP had rewritten to work on windows, then scooped it up, despite having said that they would not be moving into applications that their ‘partners’ were already in.

    On the personal computing front, Looking at QuickBooks which MS tried to buy but was stopped on anti-trust grounds,(MS Money is just not a contender) their new operating system Vista, is such a radical departure that QuickBooks had to issue an advisory to it’s customers that Vista will break the software they already own.
    http://www.quickbooks.com/Helpcenter/Vista/VistaQb2006.aspx

    As for your advice that they do something as daring as buying Krugle, is lunacy of the highest order. The first stumbling block is that it is open source, which even at the 11th hour of the office party remains heresy of the first water.

    The second stumbling block is belief that Microsoft could actually improve an open source application. Not because of talent, but because their belief that ActiveX and .net are the only true paths to salvation.

    The third and perhaps the most important stumbling block would be having to negotiate a severence package for Chris Locke, the official blogger for Krugle.

    Trust me, this will hurt more than any other thing that Microsoft might do.