Hey Microsoft: look to Krugle for your search woes (at least for your developers)

January 25, 2007 By

It’s just amazing to me that Microsoft has continued with a failed search strategy, even after it’s apparent to EVERYONE (including Microsoft’s CFO) that what they are doing isn’t working. Hint: it ain’t gonna work, even if they flush another billion or two down the “copy Google” toilet.

So, what should their strategy be? Go for a little cut against Google. Don’t try to attack Google’s castle head on. That won’t work. Instead, flank them.

Start by surrounding Google with lots of niche engines. Technorati showed the way three years ago, even though Google has largely caught up now, by doing Blog Search, which was something that Google didn’t do well (still doesn’t really: if someone wants to find a blog on, say, Scrapbooking, what search engine really gives a nice set of blogs? Neither Technorati, nor Google’s blog search engines do.

But, there’s another engine that’s showing a way to start building a more successful search strategy: Krugle.

Buy it, and buy it now.

Why? Cause it’s a search engine for developers. Go talk to Steve Ballmer about that one. Remember him screaming “developers, developers, developers?” Well, Krugle delivers.

Krugle does something demonstratable that Google does not do: searches code and indexes it and helps developers in a real, demonstrable way.

Here’s an example. If you’re a Windows programmer you probably will need to look up some API name, like “DestroyWindow,” to learn more about it. Krugle’s search for DestroyWindow not only has links to the proper MSDN page, but shows off book mentions and code, and links to examples of its use in code.

I keep hearing about Krugle from developers. They tell me it rocks for looking up stuff. Need shopping cart code? Search for it on Krugle. Now compare that to Google/Yahoo/MSN.

Now, I can hear you now “developers don’t matter to search engines.”

Oh, yeah? When I visit Google there’s a huge plasma screen that shows every Google search done in real-time (it only shows that a search was done, not what the search was about). Everytime I look at that screen Redmond, WA does more Google searches than most other large cities in the world and does more Google searches than the entire continent of Africa.

Hint: there’s not much in Redmond except for Microsoft. So, what are all those Microsofties doing on Google?

I bet they are doing searches for technical information and looking for code samples, error names, algorithm tips, and API names.

I remember talking to tons of developers on the Windows team about why they love Google: it was the best engine three years ago, by far, to look up information on Microsoft’s own Web site!

That brand love for Google spread from geeks and developers to others in society. Don’t underestimate the influence that developers have here. YOUR OWN DEVELOPERS MICROSOFT!!!

So, start small. Don’t try to be Google. Why don’t you buy Krugle, get a position in search, then build on that?

It sure couldn’t hurt. What you’re doing now sure ain’t working.

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  • Chris

    What about codesearch.google.com ?

  • Chris

    What about codesearch.google.com ?

  • http://scobleizer.com/ Robert Scoble

    Chris: my developer friends tell me that Krugle is a lot better. But, what do you think? Can you give some examples of why one is better than the other?

  • http://scobleizer.com/ Robert Scoble

    Chris: my developer friends tell me that Krugle is a lot better. But, what do you think? Can you give some examples of why one is better than the other?

  • Chris

    No, I’m sure Krugle is better today, it’s been around a while longer. Maybe it can stay ahead, maybe not. I’m just not sure that code search is the best niche to target if “not copying Google” is the point.

  • Chris

    No, I’m sure Krugle is better today, it’s been around a while longer. Maybe it can stay ahead, maybe not. I’m just not sure that code search is the best niche to target if “not copying Google” is the point.

  • whatever

    yeah..

    scoble..you are right..The only way to grab search market share is by making many vertical search engines and by innovating not by kissing goog’s ass

    Tapping on the google’s head with hammer won’t work..only way is to pull it’s legs(brand value)..release products that are nerd friendly and increase the brand value of live.com.Nobdy even knows a search engine with name ‘live’ exists.

    whatif the results on live.com were presented as conversations(techmeme style),will u be not impressed?

    It high time everybody talks about live.com
    buy facebook(heavy monetization can be applied in this niche;digg(I am not a big fan of it,btw to show msn ads..nobody even knows that adCenter exists)

    Tracking MSFT is interesting in many areas,but not in this areas..why?because steve ballmer doesn’t know what people want and the value of community.

    It has been an year Gary Flake went to MSFT..I don’t understand what is he doing ther(I think he is the man running the show)

    what is MSFT doing by keeping 30 billion$ in the pocket..Biting it’s time?

  • whatever

    yeah..

    scoble..you are right..The only way to grab search market share is by making many vertical search engines and by innovating not by kissing goog’s ass

    Tapping on the google’s head with hammer won’t work..only way is to pull it’s legs(brand value)..release products that are nerd friendly and increase the brand value of live.com.Nobdy even knows a search engine with name ‘live’ exists.

    whatif the results on live.com were presented as conversations(techmeme style),will u be not impressed?

    It high time everybody talks about live.com
    buy facebook(heavy monetization can be applied in this niche;digg(I am not a big fan of it,btw to show msn ads..nobody even knows that adCenter exists)

    Tracking MSFT is interesting in many areas,but not in this areas..why?because steve ballmer doesn’t know what people want and the value of community.

    It has been an year Gary Flake went to MSFT..I don’t understand what is he doing ther(I think he is the man running the show)

    what is MSFT doing by keeping 30 billion$ in the pocket..Biting it’s time?

  • BlogReader

    Speaking of scrappin’ (I can’t believe I just typed that) a good “blog” site of sorts is Two Peas in a Bucket. I always thought “Two Peas in a PodCast” was a good name for a podcast about scrapbooking. Just go to a convention and audio tape some vendors / excited attendees. Show pretty much writes itself.

    idea ™ BlogReader 2007

  • BlogReader

    Speaking of scrappin’ (I can’t believe I just typed that) a good “blog” site of sorts is Two Peas in a Bucket. I always thought “Two Peas in a PodCast” was a good name for a podcast about scrapbooking. Just go to a convention and audio tape some vendors / excited attendees. Show pretty much writes itself.

    idea ™ BlogReader 2007

  • http://lsvp.wordpress.com/ jeremyliew

    Koders.com is also worth a look as a code search engine – much stronger than the google product

  • http://lsvp.wordpress.com jeremyliew

    Koders.com is also worth a look as a code search engine – much stronger than the google product

  • Diego

    This is a quote from Ballmer (June 2005)

    “In the next six months, we’ll catch Google in terms of relevancy.” – Steve Ballmer.

    So much for that happening! Ballmer just keeps on losing the plot.

  • Diego

    This is a quote from Ballmer (June 2005)

    “In the next six months, we’ll catch Google in terms of relevancy.” – Steve Ballmer.

    So much for that happening! Ballmer just keeps on losing the plot.

  • http://blog.petegraham.co.uk/ Pete Graham

    Steve Ballmer is a big sweaty gorilla. When I grow up I want to be just like him!

    Oh and those code/developer speciality search engines looks really useful, will have to try them out. I currently use google and find it pretty hit and miss on finding decent coding related results.

  • http://blog.petegraham.co.uk Pete Graham

    Steve Ballmer is a big sweaty gorilla. When I grow up I want to be just like him!

    Oh and those code/developer speciality search engines looks really useful, will have to try them out. I currently use google and find it pretty hit and miss on finding decent coding related results.

  • http://ventura.wordpress.com/ Stefan Ventura

    Google’s Code Search doesn’t give me the links to MSDN and other tech pages that tell me about the API and it’s syntax. That’s where Krugle stands out.

    On the other hand, Krugle isn’t finished. Why doesn’t a search for DestroyWindow give me relevant links to Raymond Chen’s blog where the really interesting analyses of the Win32 API is? His and other blogs are shockful of juicy discussions about the API. I should be able to find it all through one search. Google is no better though.

  • http://ventura.wordpress.com Stefan Ventura

    Google’s Code Search doesn’t give me the links to MSDN and other tech pages that tell me about the API and it’s syntax. That’s where Krugle stands out.

    On the other hand, Krugle isn’t finished. Why doesn’t a search for DestroyWindow give me relevant links to Raymond Chen’s blog where the really interesting analyses of the Win32 API is? His and other blogs are shockful of juicy discussions about the API. I should be able to find it all through one search. Google is no better though.

  • Joe

    It failed my first test. Try a couple of WPF functions – MeasureOverride, ArrangeOverride. These are all over MSDN but Krugle reports no results.

    Not impressed.

  • Joe

    It failed my first test. Try a couple of WPF functions – MeasureOverride, ArrangeOverride. These are all over MSDN but Krugle reports no results.

    Not impressed.

  • http://thegreateric.wordpress.com/ Eric

    I agree. Google kind of sucks when it comes to verticals. (And personally, I like what Technorati is doing better, but it’s obvious that they need a better server infrastructure).

    I think that as time goes on this is going to become a pretty big deal – searching “the web” won’t be nearly as important as searching a subset of it. Code. Blogs. Science. News. Government Publications. The list is endless. A really well done resource for any of these (which would include a search function) could chip away at Google.

    Or take a big pet peeve of mine. This passed Christmas season, I was shopping for a HDTV. For any given search, I was interested in:

    1. Information about HDTV technology.
    2. Comparative reviews on different models.
    3. Price shopping.
    4. Technical support for the TV I just bought.

    Every search on Google I did turned up mostly retail sites with near-identical manufacturer blurbs on the things. If someone were to build a search engine that segregated the kind of information listed above, I’d probably start going to that over Google.

  • http://thegreateric.wordpress.com/ Eric

    I agree. Google kind of sucks when it comes to verticals. (And personally, I like what Technorati is doing better, but it’s obvious that they need a better server infrastructure).

    I think that as time goes on this is going to become a pretty big deal – searching “the web” won’t be nearly as important as searching a subset of it. Code. Blogs. Science. News. Government Publications. The list is endless. A really well done resource for any of these (which would include a search function) could chip away at Google.

    Or take a big pet peeve of mine. This passed Christmas season, I was shopping for a HDTV. For any given search, I was interested in:

    1. Information about HDTV technology.
    2. Comparative reviews on different models.
    3. Price shopping.
    4. Technical support for the TV I just bought.

    Every search on Google I did turned up mostly retail sites with near-identical manufacturer blurbs on the things. If someone were to build a search engine that segregated the kind of information listed above, I’d probably start going to that over Google.

  • http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html Don Dodge

    Robert, You nailed it! Focusing on vertical search is the way to go. Microsoft must win a few key markets, and do OK in the general search market.

    My vertical focus would be on Mobile Search, Local Search, and Classified Ad Search. I think those are HUGE markets with no clear leader.

    The consumer web search business is HUGE. Microsoft could make a billion dollars with just 10% to 15% market share. Yes, it is that big. You don’t get the bragging rights for being the market share leader, but you can make handsome profits with just a small market share.

    Look at Apple. They have about 5% share of the personal computer market and they do just fine. Great brand, good products, loyal customers, and very profitable. What is wrong with that?

    I wrote a blog on this today http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html

    Don Dodge

  • http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html Don Dodge

    Robert, You nailed it! Focusing on vertical search is the way to go. Microsoft must win a few key markets, and do OK in the general search market.

    My vertical focus would be on Mobile Search, Local Search, and Classified Ad Search. I think those are HUGE markets with no clear leader.

    The consumer web search business is HUGE. Microsoft could make a billion dollars with just 10% to 15% market share. Yes, it is that big. You don’t get the bragging rights for being the market share leader, but you can make handsome profits with just a small market share.

    Look at Apple. They have about 5% share of the personal computer market and they do just fine. Great brand, good products, loyal customers, and very profitable. What is wrong with that?

    I wrote a blog on this today http://dondodge.typepad.com/the_next_big_thing/2007/01/microsoft_not_h.html

    Don Dodge

  • http://gwhiz.wordpress.com/ gwhiz

    Mr. Scoble, we’re doing vertical search here at the American Association of Petroleum Geologist with the same open-source Lucene code underlying Krugle. It is AWESOME stuff. Mr. Dodge is right… Doing vertical search well over time and you wind up just owning the danged thing. That’s what we do and we’ve made a nice “little” business out of it. Energy companies need access to the info we have behind our paywall. We’ve added GIS, map-based search interfaces as well as traditional keywords.

    My $.02… Soon, people will most definitely find searching through interfaces like that MetaCarta has… are FAR superior to keywords alone. That’s why these mashups are so hot.

    You DO remember us right? The first corporate podcast anywhere (at least according to Rick Segal and WIRED)…. Yeah, we’re THOSE guys :) We may sound boring but we’re having a blast! (right here in little ole Tulsa)

  • http://gwhiz.wordpress.com/ gwhiz

    Mr. Scoble, we’re doing vertical search here at the American Association of Petroleum Geologist with the same open-source Lucene code underlying Krugle. It is AWESOME stuff. Mr. Dodge is right… Doing vertical search well over time and you wind up just owning the danged thing. That’s what we do and we’ve made a nice “little” business out of it. Energy companies need access to the info we have behind our paywall. We’ve added GIS, map-based search interfaces as well as traditional keywords.

    My $.02… Soon, people will most definitely find searching through interfaces like that MetaCarta has… are FAR superior to keywords alone. That’s why these mashups are so hot.

    You DO remember us right? The first corporate podcast anywhere (at least according to Rick Segal and WIRED)…. Yeah, we’re THOSE guys :) We may sound boring but we’re having a blast! (right here in little ole Tulsa)

  • Pingback: Krugle’s Day in the Sun « gWHIZ

  • http://www.davehodson.com/ Dave Hodson

    Scoble

    Good idea – the only issue is that none of the folks that actually work at MS can use Krugle. Viewing source is a definite no-no

  • http://www.davehodson.com Dave Hodson

    Scoble

    Good idea – the only issue is that none of the folks that actually work at MS can use Krugle. Viewing source is a definite no-no

  • http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/ Matt Cutts

    If anyone wants to try writing their own custom search engine (CSE), check out Google’s option for that:
    http://www.google.com/coop/cse/overview

    There’s a lot of power under the hood. Every time I’ve talked to the CSE folks, I’ve come away really excited about some of the things they’re working on.

  • http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/ Matt Cutts

    If anyone wants to try writing their own custom search engine (CSE), check out Google’s option for that:
    http://www.google.com/coop/cse/overview

    There’s a lot of power under the hood. Every time I’ve talked to the CSE folks, I’ve come away really excited about some of the things they’re working on.

  • http://www.retrevo.com/ Vipin Jain

    Eric, you came to the right place on Scoble’s blog with your HDTV example. We at retrevo have been working on the consumer electronics vertical search for 18 months. Go, check out http://www.retrevo.com for information along all the dimensions you mentioned. Want to understand HDTVs, want to understand what to look for, what are the top HDTVS, want more in-depth reviews of specific products from publishers and blog and finally trying to figure something out on your HDTV or fix an issue, Retrevo has all the answers for you. By no means are we done. We are constantly adding and improving the product, so please be patient with us. We have a lot more coming in next few months.

    Also check out the Retrevo Gang on Scobleizer. We do a periodic video-cast and talk about interesting gadgets, trends etc.

    And yes, Microsoft has to stop doing “me-too” and stop talking about “we will do better generic search than Google”. They need to be creative about their approach. Picking some interesting verticals / domains and partnering with the right startups is one of the ways to counter the threat and offer a superior experience to whoever is left on MSN. Their mrket share of search is decreasing gradually. If they wait for too long, they may not have a problem to worry about. Once a user is gone, it is hard to bring him/her back.

  • http://www.retrevo.com Vipin Jain

    Eric, you came to the right place on Scoble’s blog with your HDTV example. We at retrevo have been working on the consumer electronics vertical search for 18 months. Go, check out http://www.retrevo.com for information along all the dimensions you mentioned. Want to understand HDTVs, want to understand what to look for, what are the top HDTVS, want more in-depth reviews of specific products from publishers and blog and finally trying to figure something out on your HDTV or fix an issue, Retrevo has all the answers for you. By no means are we done. We are constantly adding and improving the product, so please be patient with us. We have a lot more coming in next few months.

    Also check out the Retrevo Gang on Scobleizer. We do a periodic video-cast and talk about interesting gadgets, trends etc.

    And yes, Microsoft has to stop doing “me-too” and stop talking about “we will do better generic search than Google”. They need to be creative about their approach. Picking some interesting verticals / domains and partnering with the right startups is one of the ways to counter the threat and offer a superior experience to whoever is left on MSN. Their mrket share of search is decreasing gradually. If they wait for too long, they may not have a problem to worry about. Once a user is gone, it is hard to bring him/her back.

  • http://blog.blendah.com/ Tom

    I tend to agree w/ Matt on this. The tools that Google has enabled many micro niche’s experts to maximize is really impressive. This allows the experts to do what they do best. I believe that this will also help google in the future to better define their ranking algorithims by combining rankings w/ CSE’s .

  • http://blog.blendah.com Tom

    I tend to agree w/ Matt on this. The tools that Google has enabled many micro niche’s experts to maximize is really impressive. This allows the experts to do what they do best. I believe that this will also help google in the future to better define their ranking algorithims by combining rankings w/ CSE’s .

  • Dave

    Eric:
    I have that problem a lot too — using google to search for information about stuff that you buy typically gives results of places to buy said things, not information about them.

    Try adding -buy -store -retail -$ to your search query, that helps filter to more reasonable results.

  • Dave

    Eric:
    I have that problem a lot too — using google to search for information about stuff that you buy typically gives results of places to buy said things, not information about them.

    Try adding -buy -store -retail -$ to your search query, that helps filter to more reasonable results.

  • http://www.krugle.com/ Chris Schneider

    Joe:
    I’m sorry that you didn’t find the content you were hoping to on the MSDN pages (in response to your Krugle search today for WPF functions like MeasureOverride and ArrangeOverride). I can tell you that deep coverage of both MSDN and Codeplex is a *VERY* high priority project for us, and we’ve invested a lot of time and effort on this already.

    As you may know, our initial focus for indexing code has been on OpenSource projects that host via SVN/CVS. We felt that doing a good job on this was more important than quickly downloading, unpacking and indexing all available code from archives, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, particularly the integration between code, project and tech pages via our related results area and the way we represent code files in the context of their repository trees.

    Now that this is working well, we’ve been aggressively pursuing code archives and developing an infrastructure for keeping them up to date, particularly those from MSDN and Codeplex. Look for dramatic improvements in these types of content in our next major release.

    On the Tech Pages side, our crawling efforts were initially focused on static web pages found to have technical merit. We’ve supplemented this with focused crawling of key technical domains and deep crawling of our partners’ web sites. Doing a good job of crawling these partner sites is more technically challenging, as the content is typically served up via database queries. Accordingly, we’ve had to adapt our crawling technology to this task as well. Again, look for dramatic improvements here in future releases.

    In summary, you’ve put your finger on a key area of content (both code and web pages) that we are currently devoting a lot of energy to. We’re making a lot of progress every day on this, and I hope that you and our other users will be happy with the results.

    Thanks for the input,

    - Chris

  • http://www.krugle.com Chris Schneider

    Joe:
    I’m sorry that you didn’t find the content you were hoping to on the MSDN pages (in response to your Krugle search today for WPF functions like MeasureOverride and ArrangeOverride). I can tell you that deep coverage of both MSDN and Codeplex is a *VERY* high priority project for us, and we’ve invested a lot of time and effort on this already.

    As you may know, our initial focus for indexing code has been on OpenSource projects that host via SVN/CVS. We felt that doing a good job on this was more important than quickly downloading, unpacking and indexing all available code from archives, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, particularly the integration between code, project and tech pages via our related results area and the way we represent code files in the context of their repository trees.

    Now that this is working well, we’ve been aggressively pursuing code archives and developing an infrastructure for keeping them up to date, particularly those from MSDN and Codeplex. Look for dramatic improvements in these types of content in our next major release.

    On the Tech Pages side, our crawling efforts were initially focused on static web pages found to have technical merit. We’ve supplemented this with focused crawling of key technical domains and deep crawling of our partners’ web sites. Doing a good job of crawling these partner sites is more technically challenging, as the content is typically served up via database queries. Accordingly, we’ve had to adapt our crawling technology to this task as well. Again, look for dramatic improvements here in future releases.

    In summary, you’ve put your finger on a key area of content (both code and web pages) that we are currently devoting a lot of energy to. We’re making a lot of progress every day on this, and I hope that you and our other users will be happy with the results.

    Thanks for the input,

    - Chris

  • http://www.krugle.com/ Steve Larsen

    Matt,
    We’ve seen and played with Google’s custom search engine and also think it is cool, albeit not something you could use to build Krugle. Search is different for developers and Krugle is the only search engine designed for how developers really use search – as an exploratory tool. Syntactic awareness is why vertical search engines provide high value – for Krugle, this means relevancy rankings based on algorithms which use and understand code characteristics and project activity – far better results.

  • http://www.krugle.com Steve Larsen

    Matt,
    We’ve seen and played with Google’s custom search engine and also think it is cool, albeit not something you could use to build Krugle. Search is different for developers and Krugle is the only search engine designed for how developers really use search – as an exploratory tool. Syntactic awareness is why vertical search engines provide high value – for Krugle, this means relevancy rankings based on algorithms which use and understand code characteristics and project activity – far better results.

  • http://www.timalmond.com/ Tim Almond

    Thanks Robert,

    I think that Google Code will still be first port of call for a code search for me. It does things like drill down into zip files, so you can grab a chunk of code, and all the associated code straight away.

    Looking up the MSDN pages and so on aren’t a big problem for me. A regular Google search scores these highly.

    There are also things like searching by license type, which I can’t see on Krugle.

    That said, it’s another tool in the box. It just might be that where Google misses something, this picks it up.

  • http://www.timalmond.com Tim Almond

    Thanks Robert,

    I think that Google Code will still be first port of call for a code search for me. It does things like drill down into zip files, so you can grab a chunk of code, and all the associated code straight away.

    Looking up the MSDN pages and so on aren’t a big problem for me. A regular Google search scores these highly.

    There are also things like searching by license type, which I can’t see on Krugle.

    That said, it’s another tool in the box. It just might be that where Google misses something, this picks it up.

  • Pingback: Charlie Maitland’s Blog Code search engine «

  • Pingback: Microsoft, Look to Krugle for Your Search Woes | Latent Semantic Indexing

  • Mike

    Scoble, in an application to MS’s Search Champs a couple years ago I proposed that vertical search would be a good differentiator for MS: it would be especially useful for Enterprise Search projects that need to search high-value content for their respective vertical, with perhaps some categorization thrown in.

    As a search engine professional in an enterprise, I can attest to the need for such capability.

    Needless to say, I wasn’t invited to Redmond. Now Google’s Custom Search Engine capabilities are improving, and may provide a path to easy vertical search development…

  • Mike

    Scoble, in an application to MS’s Search Champs a couple years ago I proposed that vertical search would be a good differentiator for MS: it would be especially useful for Enterprise Search projects that need to search high-value content for their respective vertical, with perhaps some categorization thrown in.

    As a search engine professional in an enterprise, I can attest to the need for such capability.

    Needless to say, I wasn’t invited to Redmond. Now Google’s Custom Search Engine capabilities are improving, and may provide a path to easy vertical search development…

  • http://engtech.wordpress.com/ engtech

    I question the amount of traffic going through Technorati search. I’ve been in the top results on the top search term this week and I’m seeing less than 30 referral clicks a day.

    Do people still use blog search or do they stick with aggregators?

    I wrote about it here:
    http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/does-technorati-matter-searching-for-violent-acres/

  • http://engtech.wordpress.com/ engtech

    I question the amount of traffic going through Technorati search. I’ve been in the top results on the top search term this week and I’m seeing less than 30 referral clicks a day.

    Do people still use blog search or do they stick with aggregators?

    I wrote about it here:
    http://engtech.wordpress.com/2007/01/26/does-technorati-matter-searching-for-violent-acres/

  • Isaac

    Hey Chris and Steve, can you give some ideas of your code search technology? Surely you guys did more than just downloading the CVS/SVN from sourgeforge and indexing archieves.

    And, would you want to be bought by MS?

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