Windows Vista vs. Mac OSX, the two-hour definitive word

I remember having great discussions about Microsoft vs. Apple back in the 1980s and 1990s. We all survived those years without too many hurt feelings.

So, I thought it’d be fun to do it again in 2007 now that Microsoft is shipping Windows Vista. Yeah, fresh meat for the whole debate! (Or was that just the burritos we were eating?) This presented an interesting opportunity to invite four interesting people over to the house last night who would give me insights from both sides of the aisle. Of course Maryam and I gave them some social lubricant and Tres Amigos’ burritos, and recorded it. We burned through two tapes (almost two hours). One thing that’s a given in our industry: we’ll never tire of talking about Apple vs. Microsoft. Even, when, as Fred Davis points out below, there’s not all that much to talk about (the discussions were a lot more fun back in 1989 when there was a truly huge difference between the two OS’s).

Oh, yeah, my Media Center disconnected six times in two hours (I was playing pictures). Something is wrong with my wifi and I gotta figure it out. Sam enjoyed that a lot. It’s always fun when the other guy’s stuff isn’t working right.

So, who were the players?

Fred Davis. Co-founder of Wired Magazine. Here’s his report of the evening.
Sam Levin. Co-founder of the Stanford Mac user’s group, and the guy who does Cool Mac Picks.
Harry McCracken, Editor in Chief of PC World. Also does PC World’s Techlog. Don’t tell anyone, but he admitted to being a Mac user.
Jeremy Toeman. He used to work at SlingMedia and is very knowledgeable about all sorts of HD video stuff. Here’s his report of the evening.

I’ll get the two hours of video up on January 31st, which is when Vista launches.

Oh, and Loren, if you say my videos are long and boring, I’ll just make them longer and more boring, OK? :-)

Actually, you can skip right to the end for Maryam’s definitive word. I’ll remind you of that again when we get the videos up.

Comments

  1. This should be some interesting video. I’m going to be joining the ranks of Mac users very shortly. I’m tired of buying spyware and virus software and I want interoperability with the iPhone when it launches.

  2. This should be some interesting video. I’m going to be joining the ranks of Mac users very shortly. I’m tired of buying spyware and virus software and I want interoperability with the iPhone when it launches.

  3. Vista Rocks.. havent used the OSXa lot.. but its just too pricey to buy for just its looks (machine)..

    Ideally, I would get a mac and run vista on it.. if you were ready to shell out enuff dollars to get a mac in the first place..

  4. Vista Rocks.. havent used the OSXa lot.. but its just too pricey to buy for just its looks (machine)..

    Ideally, I would get a mac and run vista on it.. if you were ready to shell out enuff dollars to get a mac in the first place..

  5. Smoothy: I was not offered one of the Vista laptops. Nor did anyone in my video dinner last night. Not to mention my family owns three Macs and three PCs, so are pretty well grounded.

  6. Smoothy: I was not offered one of the Vista laptops. Nor did anyone in my video dinner last night. Not to mention my family owns three Macs and three PCs, so are pretty well grounded.

  7. Christopher: well, I’d wait to watch the videos before you call them “interesting.” ;-)

    I will say this, though, we did have fun and I think we covered most of the ground of what’s good about each OS. We didn’t do any demos, though, and that’s really what would have been convincing.

    Maybe that’s where all of you come in. For each point, pro or con, it’d be interesting to have a little video demo that shows it off.

  8. Christopher: well, I’d wait to watch the videos before you call them “interesting.” ;-)

    I will say this, though, we did have fun and I think we covered most of the ground of what’s good about each OS. We didn’t do any demos, though, and that’s really what would have been convincing.

    Maybe that’s where all of you come in. For each point, pro or con, it’d be interesting to have a little video demo that shows it off.

  9. The largest difference as I see it is that it is easy to build your own PC. Correct me if I’m wrong, but is it possible to build your own Mac?

  10. The largest difference as I see it is that it is easy to build your own PC. Correct me if I’m wrong, but is it possible to build your own Mac?

  11. Your wireless was having issues? Robert if you are going to do multimedia in a 6 PC/Mac house break down and get your place hardwired. I have been running Media Center and pushing its contents to my extenders for years and did most of it wirelessly most of the time but the whole 802.11b/g band is too crowded (Microwave some popcorn and the interference is on the same band, neighbors cordless, same band…). Apple was smart in delaying their AppleTV to coincide with 802.11n for better speed and reliability wireless. Having said that nothing beats hardwired. When I relocated south a year ago one of the first things I did was get the whole house hardwired (every room including the kitchen). It ran $1,200 which included a nice patch panel in entry closet. Another $199 for a 16 port Gigabit switch and I have no-disconnect multi-media heaven in the house (My Media Center feeds three 1st gen Xboxes with Extender adaptors, 1 HP Extender, and 1 Xbox 360, 1 Viewsonic SmartDisplay, and another 4 PC’s access music, pics, etc).
    With all the multimedia you do you owe it to yourself to pull the wired trigger. You could turn the transformation of the Scoble house into a wired digital eHome in to a whole vlog series complete with “how to” tips for others as well.
    Michael

  12. Your wireless was having issues? Robert if you are going to do multimedia in a 6 PC/Mac house break down and get your place hardwired. I have been running Media Center and pushing its contents to my extenders for years and did most of it wirelessly most of the time but the whole 802.11b/g band is too crowded (Microwave some popcorn and the interference is on the same band, neighbors cordless, same band…). Apple was smart in delaying their AppleTV to coincide with 802.11n for better speed and reliability wireless. Having said that nothing beats hardwired. When I relocated south a year ago one of the first things I did was get the whole house hardwired (every room including the kitchen). It ran $1,200 which included a nice patch panel in entry closet. Another $199 for a 16 port Gigabit switch and I have no-disconnect multi-media heaven in the house (My Media Center feeds three 1st gen Xboxes with Extender adaptors, 1 HP Extender, and 1 Xbox 360, 1 Viewsonic SmartDisplay, and another 4 PC’s access music, pics, etc).
    With all the multimedia you do you owe it to yourself to pull the wired trigger. You could turn the transformation of the Scoble house into a wired digital eHome in to a whole vlog series complete with “how to” tips for others as well.
    Michael

  13. I work in the browser, the OS doesn’t matter so much any more. I use both OS’s because I have to.

  14. I work in the browser, the OS doesn’t matter so much any more. I use both OS’s because I have to.

  15. Will take the time out to watch the video and it will be good to get an expert impression. What will be intersting is whether the slant will be consumer or enterprise focused.

    At home I use both, I 2 Mac’s and I think 5 PC’s (of various flavours) all doing slightly different jobs. ‘Horses for courses’ is my attitude.’

  16. Will take the time out to watch the video and it will be good to get an expert impression. What will be intersting is whether the slant will be consumer or enterprise focused.

    At home I use both, I 2 Mac’s and I think 5 PC’s (of various flavours) all doing slightly different jobs. ‘Horses for courses’ is my attitude.’

  17. I still remmber these debates (or fights) but for me in the 80′s and 90′s it was more Commodore vs Sinclair or Amiga vs Atari, as for my opinion on Mac vs PC I use both but I wont be upgrading to Vista this time round, it’s too expencive at £100 for the basic version.

  18. I still remmber these debates (or fights) but for me in the 80′s and 90′s it was more Commodore vs Sinclair or Amiga vs Atari, as for my opinion on Mac vs PC I use both but I wont be upgrading to Vista this time round, it’s too expencive at £100 for the basic version.

  19. seems to me that all those shouting about this are PC users. Mac users don’t need to get all agitated about this old argument – they have already seen the light, and don’t care what the other person is using.

  20. seems to me that all those shouting about this are PC users. Mac users don’t need to get all agitated about this old argument – they have already seen the light, and don’t care what the other person is using.

  21. If you are going to compare OSes, please compare Vista to Leopard.

    Oh wait, Steve Jobs will do that one week after M$ releases vista haha.

  22. If you are going to compare OSes, please compare Vista to Leopard.

    Oh wait, Steve Jobs will do that one week after M$ releases vista haha.

  23. > Mac users don’t need to get all agitated
    > about this old argument – they have already
    > seen the light, and don’t care what the other
    > person is using.

    Great joke, Dan! If you are not being intentionally funny, I think you might need to spend more time on teh intarweb, where the Mac faithful are still blitzing almost every available space with their psuedo-religious whines.

    I’ve always put it down to insecurity, or to having a desperately impoverished idea of a life. Does your self esteem really depend on the brand of computer you use? Or your car? Or your trainers? If so, that’s really pitiful, isn’t it?

    In any case, it’s an issue with diminishing interest away from very rich people living in California.

    Go to India or China or most countries in Africa and South America and see how much most people care about having rounded corners and brushed metal, or not. What they do care aboout is the ability to knock together cheap PCs for business or pleasure and run lots of cheap software on them, without having to ask anyone’s permission.

  24. > Mac users don’t need to get all agitated
    > about this old argument – they have already
    > seen the light, and don’t care what the other
    > person is using.

    Great joke, Dan! If you are not being intentionally funny, I think you might need to spend more time on teh intarweb, where the Mac faithful are still blitzing almost every available space with their psuedo-religious whines.

    I’ve always put it down to insecurity, or to having a desperately impoverished idea of a life. Does your self esteem really depend on the brand of computer you use? Or your car? Or your trainers? If so, that’s really pitiful, isn’t it?

    In any case, it’s an issue with diminishing interest away from very rich people living in California.

    Go to India or China or most countries in Africa and South America and see how much most people care about having rounded corners and brushed metal, or not. What they do care aboout is the ability to knock together cheap PCs for business or pleasure and run lots of cheap software on them, without having to ask anyone’s permission.

  25. I work all day on Macs (G4s & G5s) and have one at home. Also have a PC with XP on it at home. I far prefer OS X over XP as an OS – It’s far easier to use. BUT… I gather that OS X CAN be run on what we call a PC (Dual-Core and all that) so, you never know, one day all men will be equal.
    Insofar as MS Vista goes – it’s stolen most of OS Xs front end and is far too expensive – I guess no news on an upgrade path?

  26. I work all day on Macs (G4s & G5s) and have one at home. Also have a PC with XP on it at home. I far prefer OS X over XP as an OS – It’s far easier to use. BUT… I gather that OS X CAN be run on what we call a PC (Dual-Core and all that) so, you never know, one day all men will be equal.
    Insofar as MS Vista goes – it’s stolen most of OS Xs front end and is far too expensive – I guess no news on an upgrade path?

  27. > Oh wait, Steve Jobs will do that one
    > week after M$ releases vista haha.

    There you go: someone provided an instant illustration.

    Many thanks, cheetah!

  28. > Oh wait, Steve Jobs will do that one
    > week after M$ releases vista haha.

    There you go: someone provided an instant illustration.

    Many thanks, cheetah!

  29. I’ve read several posts about how expensive the Vista upgrade is. Check your facts folks. The Apple Store currently sells Mac OSX v10.4 Tiger, a minor release (putting it mildly here) for $129. Apple tries to sell you a minor release pretty much every year for $129 but if you want the latest gadgets or whiz bang screen effects, you buy it.

    On Amazon, the Vista basic upgrade sells for $98.95 and Premium sells for $154.99.

    If you were to upgrade your Mac OS as often as $teve Job$ wants you to (so his backdated options can be worth something), you’d have paid hundreds of dollars since Windows XP’s release.

    If the Mac Heads really want to convert people they should begin by telling the truth. BTW, I own a Mac, and a PC and I find the latest Mac vs. PC ads thoroughly insulting.

  30. I’ve read several posts about how expensive the Vista upgrade is. Check your facts folks. The Apple Store currently sells Mac OSX v10.4 Tiger, a minor release (putting it mildly here) for $129. Apple tries to sell you a minor release pretty much every year for $129 but if you want the latest gadgets or whiz bang screen effects, you buy it.

    On Amazon, the Vista basic upgrade sells for $98.95 and Premium sells for $154.99.

    If you were to upgrade your Mac OS as often as $teve Job$ wants you to (so his backdated options can be worth something), you’d have paid hundreds of dollars since Windows XP’s release.

    If the Mac Heads really want to convert people they should begin by telling the truth. BTW, I own a Mac, and a PC and I find the latest Mac vs. PC ads thoroughly insulting.

  31. Correct me if Im wrong but Vista launches on the 30th (tuesday), or atleast thats the day its supposed to go on sale throughout my store.

  32. I do not use Mac, so I can’t be objective, however, the largest portion of businesses use PC, even the mac comercials relize that. You have to use the industry standard to maximize you overhead costs. Using a PC for your company will give you the largest selection of software, even games are more prevelent on PC than Mac.

    This debate will continue, with everybody having a favorite, both sides will demonstrate that their product is better. When you want to buy the best, you will look at what everybody else is using then buy into that.

    Mac appears to cover the graphic world pretty well, but when you do writing, math, and data manipulation, Mac uses MS Office for Mac.
    What does that say?

    Guy

  33. I do not use Mac, so I can’t be objective, however, the largest portion of businesses use PC, even the mac comercials relize that. You have to use the industry standard to maximize you overhead costs. Using a PC for your company will give you the largest selection of software, even games are more prevelent on PC than Mac.

    This debate will continue, with everybody having a favorite, both sides will demonstrate that their product is better. When you want to buy the best, you will look at what everybody else is using then buy into that.

    Mac appears to cover the graphic world pretty well, but when you do writing, math, and data manipulation, Mac uses MS Office for Mac.
    What does that say?

    Guy

  34. Correct me if Im wrong but Vista launches on the 30th (tuesday), or atleast thats the day its supposed to go on sale throughout my store.

  35. Wait wait wait, you’re going to compare Vista with a one-year-old version of OS X? Wouldn’t it make more sense to wait three or four months, and then compare the latest versions of each OS? Otherwise, sounds to me like you’re setting up a strawman.

    Unless your point is that Vista doesn’t even compete to an OS that’s already been on the market a year. Somehow I don’t think that’s your point.

    Will you be doing a follow-up video once Leopard ships?

  36. Wait wait wait, you’re going to compare Vista with a one-year-old version of OS X? Wouldn’t it make more sense to wait three or four months, and then compare the latest versions of each OS? Otherwise, sounds to me like you’re setting up a strawman.

    Unless your point is that Vista doesn’t even compete to an OS that’s already been on the market a year. Somehow I don’t think that’s your point.

    Will you be doing a follow-up video once Leopard ships?

  37. RE: 21

    Yes, let’s talk about the truth. Windows users have been stuck with XP for years with no upgrades available, only patches.

    Mac users, on the other hand, have had a significant upgrade available each year for a fee of $129. These upgrades are optional and retroactive. So if you want the latest OS year by year, sure, pay $129 a pop. But if you’re willing to wait a year or two in between, a single $129 price catches you up to the latest version of OS X.

    Sorry, but I prefer an OS that’s actually going somewhere and gives me a choice of upgrading, rather than one that misses shipment dates left and right.

  38. RE: 21

    Yes, let’s talk about the truth. Windows users have been stuck with XP for years with no upgrades available, only patches.

    Mac users, on the other hand, have had a significant upgrade available each year for a fee of $129. These upgrades are optional and retroactive. So if you want the latest OS year by year, sure, pay $129 a pop. But if you’re willing to wait a year or two in between, a single $129 price catches you up to the latest version of OS X.

    Sorry, but I prefer an OS that’s actually going somewhere and gives me a choice of upgrading, rather than one that misses shipment dates left and right.

  39. I´ve used PCs at work far to long, since 1988 that is. I still use, I´m on a Vista Business since last Monday. It´s a disappointment. At home I and my family use Intel Macs. Today I decided that my design office should migrate to OS X (with a little help from Parallels..). Honestly, I can´t wait.

  40. I´ve used PCs at work far to long, since 1988 that is. I still use, I´m on a Vista Business since last Monday. It´s a disappointment. At home I and my family use Intel Macs. Today I decided that my design office should migrate to OS X (with a little help from Parallels..). Honestly, I can´t wait.

  41. Are you comparing Vista with Leopard? Because if you aren’t, the comparison is only going to be valid for a few more months.

  42. Are you comparing Vista with Leopard? Because if you aren’t, the comparison is only going to be valid for a few more months.

  43. Tiger has been out for about one year. Vista is about to pop, and Leopard is not too far behind. So the OS-shoot-out is about the Old vs the New. But It would be cool if you and the gang did a a follow-up (with beer and pizza, natch) and revisited your observations when Vista is few months old and Leopard is out and pouncing. Cheers, and bottoms up!
    ( PS to the poster who mentioned building your own pc and running lots of free software etc…they had better be using a version of Linux..’cause ain’t no way they gonna do that on the farm with Vista and the fast CPUs it requires … better Ubuntu for all that buddy). PeaCe

  44. Tiger has been out for about one year. Vista is about to pop, and Leopard is not too far behind. So the OS-shoot-out is about the Old vs the New. But It would be cool if you and the gang did a a follow-up (with beer and pizza, natch) and revisited your observations when Vista is few months old and Leopard is out and pouncing. Cheers, and bottoms up!
    ( PS to the poster who mentioned building your own pc and running lots of free software etc…they had better be using a version of Linux..’cause ain’t no way they gonna do that on the farm with Vista and the fast CPUs it requires … better Ubuntu for all that buddy). PeaCe

  45. I’m looking forward to the discussion and the release of both Vista and OS 10.5. Anything that ups the ante is good for everybody in the long run and the staff at Cupertino do not have a monopoly on good ideas. However, I remain a Windows skeptic- having seen too many BSOD and bailed out too many Windows users from catastrophic crashes/infections who would be better served on a Mac.

    One anecdote is a great illustration. A G3 400mHz iMac I bought back when Clinton was still in the White House is still in use by an aunt I gave it to after I had no more need for it in the house. Running OS9 and now running 10.3x, it has been connected to broadband internet without AV software and has never been infected, nor has it ever crashed or had a Kernel Panic (something I cannot say for my G4 & 5 machines). It’s not a speed demon, but still faithfully works every day at a useable speed and has only had an internal clock battery and the IR mouse replaced. Quite a track record.

    The best tool depends upon your needs and for the vast majority of users a modern iBook, Mac mini or Mac Book is all the computer they will ever need. Add a copy of MS Office, usually discounted with the purchase of a new Mac, and you are in business. Serious gamers can buy the console of their choice and have the best of both worlds. A Mac mini and an X-Box 360 would make a nice combo and still not break the bank.

  46. I’m looking forward to the discussion and the release of both Vista and OS 10.5. Anything that ups the ante is good for everybody in the long run and the staff at Cupertino do not have a monopoly on good ideas. However, I remain a Windows skeptic- having seen too many BSOD and bailed out too many Windows users from catastrophic crashes/infections who would be better served on a Mac.

    One anecdote is a great illustration. A G3 400mHz iMac I bought back when Clinton was still in the White House is still in use by an aunt I gave it to after I had no more need for it in the house. Running OS9 and now running 10.3x, it has been connected to broadband internet without AV software and has never been infected, nor has it ever crashed or had a Kernel Panic (something I cannot say for my G4 & 5 machines). It’s not a speed demon, but still faithfully works every day at a useable speed and has only had an internal clock battery and the IR mouse replaced. Quite a track record.

    The best tool depends upon your needs and for the vast majority of users a modern iBook, Mac mini or Mac Book is all the computer they will ever need. Add a copy of MS Office, usually discounted with the purchase of a new Mac, and you are in business. Serious gamers can buy the console of their choice and have the best of both worlds. A Mac mini and an X-Box 360 would make a nice combo and still not break the bank.

  47. Three comments;
    1) Vista still isn’t UNIX
    2) I use a Mac at home; XP at work. Vista would have to have HUGE user interaction refinements– and I don’t mean adding eye candy– for me to give MSFT any kudos.
    3) “I work in the browser, the OS doesn’t matter so much any more. I use both OS’s because I have to.” You neglect security issues in making this statement. BTW: I hope you are at least using a DECENT browser, like Opera, Safari, or Firefox.

  48. Three comments;
    1) Vista still isn’t UNIX
    2) I use a Mac at home; XP at work. Vista would have to have HUGE user interaction refinements– and I don’t mean adding eye candy– for me to give MSFT any kudos.
    3) “I work in the browser, the OS doesn’t matter so much any more. I use both OS’s because I have to.” You neglect security issues in making this statement. BTW: I hope you are at least using a DECENT browser, like Opera, Safari, or Firefox.

  49. My apologies for this long rant(ish) post.

    Tekpooler said:
    “Vista Rocks.. havent used the OSXa lot.. but its just too pricey to buy for just its looks (machine)..”

    Do you realize how scattered your comment is? You’re blending the hardware platform with the OS environment into one criticizing point that focuses JUST on a superficiality: cosmetics. As you haven’t used “OSXa lot”, let me tell you that those who HAVE used Mac OS X and know of what they speak would care less about the plastic shell of the computer the operating system runs on. I care less — WAY less — about the computer’s look and care WAY more about how efficient, unobtrusive, robust, dependable, durable, logical and clean Mac OS X is… and onwards to the applications that run on it. These are not issues of cosmetics, but aspects that contribute to my flexibility and productivity as an end-user.

    Note that these comments of mine do not say “WINDOZE SUKZ”, but rather what IS the value of a different platform… and I’ll let people’s own experiences with any OSes by comparison resonate within themselves…

    My experience is that the operating system has a FAR GREATER impact on the end-user than the computer’s specifications. When one moves their mouse around the screen all day, are they wishing for a better graphics card whenever they hit a bluescreen, get served a crash notification, a Trojan gets installed and their PC starts acting as a spam server or DDOS zombie… or even some cursed “Wizard” or puppy dog pops up? No. For some strange reason, most users just accept this “quality of life” on a computer as being “just the way things are”, update their virus definitions and hope for the best (meanwhile, week by week their Registry gets bigger and bigger…). From my perspective, it’s weird — almost Orwellian — how most people out there don’t give their OS a first let alone second thought. Now, I’m not trying to say that hardware doesn’t matter — it does — and Apple’s move to the more energy efficient Intel CPUs was a smart (and BOLD) move, but so many people who fancy themselves as being PC ubergeeks miss this point. Hardware, hardware hardware; that’s all they obsess about. Meanwhile, to paraphrase Clinton, “It’s the computing environment, stupid” that matters. So… who’s more the misguided one? Those self professed PC geeks who miss the crucial point regarding user environment? Or, those who buy boxes because they’re pretty? Well, those who value THE OPERATING SYSTEM that runs on a Mac fit neither of these cases.

    And John Ferguson? Don’t hold your breath for Apple to release OS X for any PC. It won’t happen, because Apple derives their income from hardware sales. Also, it would be a difficult, uphill battle to gain sufficient OS marketshare against the deeply ensconced Windows platform, and there would literally have to be a revolution in the enterprise software sector for it to be successful. Apple wouldn’t last long enough to get a large enough OS share that would keep Apple sustainable — regardless of iPod or iPhone (potential) sales. And besides, Apple’s vertical integration is AN ASSET to the platform’s stability. I used to chalk that one up to the PC clone side, but not anymore. Sure, it’s cheaper to build your own PC, but ALL PC companies — Dell, HP, Apple and more — are not catering to that market. In the context of the overall personal computer market (Windows and Mac OS inclusive), this contingent is but a niche of the overall market. Isn’t it? Given this, Apple’s gear has become quite competitive in price against Dell, HP etc… And Apple’s vertical integration allows Apple to optimize the OS to the hardware they choose. Result: way less hassle. Then result of this: more productivity and REAL results for the end user.

    Thanks for reading.

  50. My apologies for this long rant(ish) post.

    Tekpooler said:
    “Vista Rocks.. havent used the OSXa lot.. but its just too pricey to buy for just its looks (machine)..”

    Do you realize how scattered your comment is? You’re blending the hardware platform with the OS environment into one criticizing point that focuses JUST on a superficiality: cosmetics. As you haven’t used “OSXa lot”, let me tell you that those who HAVE used Mac OS X and know of what they speak would care less about the plastic shell of the computer the operating system runs on. I care less — WAY less — about the computer’s look and care WAY more about how efficient, unobtrusive, robust, dependable, durable, logical and clean Mac OS X is… and onwards to the applications that run on it. These are not issues of cosmetics, but aspects that contribute to my flexibility and productivity as an end-user.

    Note that these comments of mine do not say “WINDOZE SUKZ”, but rather what IS the value of a different platform… and I’ll let people’s own experiences with any OSes by comparison resonate within themselves…

    My experience is that the operating system has a FAR GREATER impact on the end-user than the computer’s specifications. When one moves their mouse around the screen all day, are they wishing for a better graphics card whenever they hit a bluescreen, get served a crash notification, a Trojan gets installed and their PC starts acting as a spam server or DDOS zombie… or even some cursed “Wizard” or puppy dog pops up? No. For some strange reason, most users just accept this “quality of life” on a computer as being “just the way things are”, update their virus definitions and hope for the best (meanwhile, week by week their Registry gets bigger and bigger…). From my perspective, it’s weird — almost Orwellian — how most people out there don’t give their OS a first let alone second thought. Now, I’m not trying to say that hardware doesn’t matter — it does — and Apple’s move to the more energy efficient Intel CPUs was a smart (and BOLD) move, but so many people who fancy themselves as being PC ubergeeks miss this point. Hardware, hardware hardware; that’s all they obsess about. Meanwhile, to paraphrase Clinton, “It’s the computing environment, stupid” that matters. So… who’s more the misguided one? Those self professed PC geeks who miss the crucial point regarding user environment? Or, those who buy boxes because they’re pretty? Well, those who value THE OPERATING SYSTEM that runs on a Mac fit neither of these cases.

    And John Ferguson? Don’t hold your breath for Apple to release OS X for any PC. It won’t happen, because Apple derives their income from hardware sales. Also, it would be a difficult, uphill battle to gain sufficient OS marketshare against the deeply ensconced Windows platform, and there would literally have to be a revolution in the enterprise software sector for it to be successful. Apple wouldn’t last long enough to get a large enough OS share that would keep Apple sustainable — regardless of iPod or iPhone (potential) sales. And besides, Apple’s vertical integration is AN ASSET to the platform’s stability. I used to chalk that one up to the PC clone side, but not anymore. Sure, it’s cheaper to build your own PC, but ALL PC companies — Dell, HP, Apple and more — are not catering to that market. In the context of the overall personal computer market (Windows and Mac OS inclusive), this contingent is but a niche of the overall market. Isn’t it? Given this, Apple’s gear has become quite competitive in price against Dell, HP etc… And Apple’s vertical integration allows Apple to optimize the OS to the hardware they choose. Result: way less hassle. Then result of this: more productivity and REAL results for the end user.

    Thanks for reading.

  51. During my writing of my ridiculously long post, Tom B posted. His second point speaks succinctly to the point of my post. And his first point cannot be ignored. To borrow from Tekpooler, UNIX ROCKS. This fact must be “dealt with” ;)

  52. During my writing of my ridiculously long post, Tom B posted. His second point speaks succinctly to the point of my post. And his first point cannot be ignored. To borrow from Tekpooler, UNIX ROCKS. This fact must be “dealt with” ;)

  53. re: 22

    History note. Microsoft Word and Excel were on the Mac 1st. They were commisioned by Apple for the 1st Mac. Microsoft decided to turn them into a office suite to run on Windows later on.

    Also the Mac is more expsensive doesn’t hold water anymore. Go to Dell.com and do a comparative price spec… you’ll be surprised. On top of that I believe PCWorld (or one such major Windows rag) rated the Macbook Pro’s as the best Laptops of 2006.

  54. re: 22

    History note. Microsoft Word and Excel were on the Mac 1st. They were commisioned by Apple for the 1st Mac. Microsoft decided to turn them into a office suite to run on Windows later on.

    Also the Mac is more expsensive doesn’t hold water anymore. Go to Dell.com and do a comparative price spec… you’ll be surprised. On top of that I believe PCWorld (or one such major Windows rag) rated the Macbook Pro’s as the best Laptops of 2006.

  55. I made my girlfriend buy a powerbook last year. It has been with the geniuses longer than it has been with her. This time its almost 2 weeks. The customer rep takes a look at the record and says “Oh! its only 9 days. You are still in the queue.”.
    Till Apple gets its stuff back together. I am not getting another Apple product.

    Apple has to keep parts in stock and the geniuses have to be more intelligent.

    And Pete, Macs are way costlier than other laptops.
    An HP laptop that a friend of mine bought from costco for $945: Core2Duo(i forgot the specs), 2GB RAM, 256mb Nvidia GEforce (128mb shared), 120GB Harddrive, 8CellBattery, Webcam inbuilt, etc. This was bought 3 weeks ago.
    I don’t care about the higher prices coz the macs look good and OSX I like – but the service sucks big time.

  56. I made my girlfriend buy a powerbook last year. It has been with the geniuses longer than it has been with her. This time its almost 2 weeks. The customer rep takes a look at the record and says “Oh! its only 9 days. You are still in the queue.”.
    Till Apple gets its stuff back together. I am not getting another Apple product.

    Apple has to keep parts in stock and the geniuses have to be more intelligent.

    And Pete, Macs are way costlier than other laptops.
    An HP laptop that a friend of mine bought from costco for $945: Core2Duo(i forgot the specs), 2GB RAM, 256mb Nvidia GEforce (128mb shared), 120GB Harddrive, 8CellBattery, Webcam inbuilt, etc. This was bought 3 weeks ago.
    I don’t care about the higher prices coz the macs look good and OSX I like – but the service sucks big time.

  57. Two hours, that’s too long even if the discussion was very interesting. Also, how about a small preview or trailer before launching this on the 30/31? What’s the official date again?

  58. Two hours, that’s too long even if the discussion was very interesting. Also, how about a small preview or trailer before launching this on the 30/31? What’s the official date again?

  59. Ed: unfortunately I don’t have the editing resources to do a preview. The preview is our text blogs.

    I agree that it’s long. But I’ll try to point out the interesting parts.

  60. Before it is mentioned that Apple does not offer bottom basement priced PCs, let me make it clear that Apple has no desire to enter that market due to the razor then margins. There really is no advantagge to being there from a business standpoint. Apple released the Mac Mini and that is as close to the bargain PC as they are likely to get.

    Apple will let Dell, HP and the others fight over cutting cost and lowering prices while Apple just makes better computers with a killer OS.

    Apple is competitive in the markets they want to compete in, like the mid-to-high end. Configure a Dell like a MacPro and it is more expensive than the Mac. Apple includes in their default configurations what Dell, etc leaves out to cut costs.

  61. Ed: unfortunately I don’t have the editing resources to do a preview. The preview is our text blogs.

    I agree that it’s long. But I’ll try to point out the interesting parts.

  62. Before it is mentioned that Apple does not offer bottom basement priced PCs, let me make it clear that Apple has no desire to enter that market due to the razor then margins. There really is no advantagge to being there from a business standpoint. Apple released the Mac Mini and that is as close to the bargain PC as they are likely to get.

    Apple will let Dell, HP and the others fight over cutting cost and lowering prices while Apple just makes better computers with a killer OS.

    Apple is competitive in the markets they want to compete in, like the mid-to-high end. Configure a Dell like a MacPro and it is more expensive than the Mac. Apple includes in their default configurations what Dell, etc leaves out to cut costs.

  63. As a long time Macintosh user (22 years and counting), I wish Vista well. Why? Because it puts to rest another bit of Microsoft FUD. Ever since MS-Dos, Microsoft and its pet columnists would play the same game. They would spend years of effort advertising that whatever benefits the Macintosh had were worthless– right up to the time that Microsoft put out its own version of the same thing.

    This isn’t to say that Apple hasn’t screwed up at times: the whole Pink, Taligent era was embarrassing. But, Apple has a winner with Mac OSX. Meanwhile, Microsoft and its sycophants were discounting Mac OSX as eye-candy.

    Areo Vista has eye-candy of its own now, so Microsoft can drop that bit of FUD. You will also notice that to use Areo Vista, you need a machine that is at least two to three times as powerful as to run Windows XP. This means that only upper end PC’s sold in the last two years qualify. But, the junky PC’s older than that have probably been thrown away. What this means is that, all this time, Apple computers needed to be twice as powerful to run Mac OSX. Eye-candy uses up computing cycles. We Mac users don’t mind that; the Areo Vista users won’t either. Eye-candy is nice.

    I don’t mean to disparage the PC’s; many people are happy enough with them. I wish them well. All I’m saying is that, every time Microsoft catches up to Apple, some disinformation vanishes.

    Now, if we could only get PC users to recognize that Apple doesn’t make low end, throw away, junky PC’s and starts comparing them to mid range computers from Dell or HP. If they did compare correctly, then the PC users would know that Apple Mac’s are comparable in price or lower. And why shouldn’t they cost the same? All these computers are built in the same Chinese factories that build Dells or HP’s. They use most of the same components. So, the hardware question, among mid range computers, becomes irrelevant.

    Those of you who build their own computers from parts, and bragging about their savings, are ignoring the time it takes you to research, build, get them working and maintain them. How much is your time worth? Most Macintosh users have pay grades above $20 an hour, so it’s not worth it to us to build one. It would cost us above two thousand dollars in time to get even near the quality of a Mac. And the Mac’s cost less than that.

  64. As a long time Macintosh user (22 years and counting), I wish Vista well. Why? Because it puts to rest another bit of Microsoft FUD. Ever since MS-Dos, Microsoft and its pet columnists would play the same game. They would spend years of effort advertising that whatever benefits the Macintosh had were worthless– right up to the time that Microsoft put out its own version of the same thing.

    This isn’t to say that Apple hasn’t screwed up at times: the whole Pink, Taligent era was embarrassing. But, Apple has a winner with Mac OSX. Meanwhile, Microsoft and its sycophants were discounting Mac OSX as eye-candy.

    Areo Vista has eye-candy of its own now, so Microsoft can drop that bit of FUD. You will also notice that to use Areo Vista, you need a machine that is at least two to three times as powerful as to run Windows XP. This means that only upper end PC’s sold in the last two years qualify. But, the junky PC’s older than that have probably been thrown away. What this means is that, all this time, Apple computers needed to be twice as powerful to run Mac OSX. Eye-candy uses up computing cycles. We Mac users don’t mind that; the Areo Vista users won’t either. Eye-candy is nice.

    I don’t mean to disparage the PC’s; many people are happy enough with them. I wish them well. All I’m saying is that, every time Microsoft catches up to Apple, some disinformation vanishes.

    Now, if we could only get PC users to recognize that Apple doesn’t make low end, throw away, junky PC’s and starts comparing them to mid range computers from Dell or HP. If they did compare correctly, then the PC users would know that Apple Mac’s are comparable in price or lower. And why shouldn’t they cost the same? All these computers are built in the same Chinese factories that build Dells or HP’s. They use most of the same components. So, the hardware question, among mid range computers, becomes irrelevant.

    Those of you who build their own computers from parts, and bragging about their savings, are ignoring the time it takes you to research, build, get them working and maintain them. How much is your time worth? Most Macintosh users have pay grades above $20 an hour, so it’s not worth it to us to build one. It would cost us above two thousand dollars in time to get even near the quality of a Mac. And the Mac’s cost less than that.

  65. Not true loganson. The HP I wrote about is almost equal in specs to the $2499 15″ macbook pro except for stuff like backlit keyboard, etc (and of course the looks :) )
    The HP was for $949 from costco. Even if you add a $50 costco membership to it its cheaper.

  66. Not true loganson. The HP I wrote about is almost equal in specs to the $2499 15″ macbook pro except for stuff like backlit keyboard, etc (and of course the looks :) )
    The HP was for $949 from costco. Even if you add a $50 costco membership to it its cheaper.

  67. Pete says:
    > History note. Microsoft Word and Excel
    > were on the Mac 1st. They were commisioned
    > by Apple for the 1st Mac.

    Actually, Word was out for DOS first — and it had windows and you could get it bundled with a mouse even before the Mac came out. Microsoft also had a spreadsheet called MultiPlan, which got trounced by Lotus 1-2-3.

    The Mac was the first to have graphical versions of Word and Excel, though I’m not sure “commissioned” is the right word. The Mac was also first to have the Office bundle.

    > Also the Mac is more expsensive doesn’t
    > hold water anymore. Go to Dell.com and do a
    > comparative price spec… you’ll be surprised.

    Dell sells millions, possibly tens of millions, of PCs that are *much* cheaper than Macs. As a matter of fact, it always has.

    I suspect the average differential is even larger for the 95% of the world’s population who don’t live in the US. Could someone pop down to the Apple store in Kabul and see how an iMac compares with the cost of a locally-assembled PC?

  68. Pete says:
    > History note. Microsoft Word and Excel
    > were on the Mac 1st. They were commisioned
    > by Apple for the 1st Mac.

    Actually, Word was out for DOS first — and it had windows and you could get it bundled with a mouse even before the Mac came out. Microsoft also had a spreadsheet called MultiPlan, which got trounced by Lotus 1-2-3.

    The Mac was the first to have graphical versions of Word and Excel, though I’m not sure “commissioned” is the right word. The Mac was also first to have the Office bundle.

    > Also the Mac is more expsensive doesn’t
    > hold water anymore. Go to Dell.com and do a
    > comparative price spec… you’ll be surprised.

    Dell sells millions, possibly tens of millions, of PCs that are *much* cheaper than Macs. As a matter of fact, it always has.

    I suspect the average differential is even larger for the 95% of the world’s population who don’t live in the US. Could someone pop down to the Apple store in Kabul and see how an iMac compares with the cost of a locally-assembled PC?

  69. Nowadays the Windows laptops come with inbuilt webcams and smaller remote controls with 4 to 6 buttons. Their implementation come no where close to Apples.

    But I could buy two of those laptops for an Apple’s price. That way I’ll have a backup laptop each time it goes for repair.

  70. Nowadays the Windows laptops come with inbuilt webcams and smaller remote controls with 4 to 6 buttons. Their implementation come no where close to Apples.

    But I could buy two of those laptops for an Apple’s price. That way I’ll have a backup laptop each time it goes for repair.

  71. Louis Wheeler says:
    > All these computers are built in the same
    > Chinese factories that build Dells or HP’s.

    Yes, that’s certainly true of Dell’s Chinese factory in Austin, Texas!

    Next time, pick on IBM ;-)

    > Most Macintosh users have pay grades above $20
    > an hour, so it’s not worth it to us to build one.

    That may also be true in Kabul, too….

  72. Louis Wheeler says:
    > All these computers are built in the same
    > Chinese factories that build Dells or HP’s.

    Yes, that’s certainly true of Dell’s Chinese factory in Austin, Texas!

    Next time, pick on IBM ;-)

    > Most Macintosh users have pay grades above $20
    > an hour, so it’s not worth it to us to build one.

    That may also be true in Kabul, too….

  73. Pete @ 38
    As far as Software read #50. The point of my comment is that Businesses use Windows a lot more than Mac. This would indicate a higher stability in that product, you can’t run a company if you software is failing all of the time.

    Bill Gates is not the richest man in the world because he sold a lot of girl scout cookies, it is because he sold something that was in high demand.

    Guy

  74. Pete @ 38
    As far as Software read #50. The point of my comment is that Businesses use Windows a lot more than Mac. This would indicate a higher stability in that product, you can’t run a company if you software is failing all of the time.

    Bill Gates is not the richest man in the world because he sold a lot of girl scout cookies, it is because he sold something that was in high demand.

    Guy

  75. Robert Off topic:
    How do you track the comments on your blog? Do you use the e-mail response or do you read all of your comments? I have subscribed to your comment feed and you get around 80 to 100 comments per day.

    Guy

  76. Robert Off topic:
    How do you track the comments on your blog? Do you use the e-mail response or do you read all of your comments? I have subscribed to your comment feed and you get around 80 to 100 comments per day.

    Guy

  77. OK, I’m a Mac user. (Who lives near Redmond!)

    In spte of a responders early comment, this “debate” has again seemed to deteriorate into pointless pointing.

    Apple, Dell, MS etc. are businesses, not shrines! They make business decisions.
    That Apple doesn’t make “cheap PC’s” due to low margins is correct as a business decision. Dell does and made it’s fortunes on that business model. It seemed to be what people wanted. Apple had a niche.
    Now, Apple is on a roll in spite of price. They compete well in price when compared to similar specs AND build quality from other companies. (Yes they’ve screwed up a bit on QC recently. Not the norm. Will hopefully be corrected. Problem if not.)
    This is partly because some of the “myths” about Mac’s are being dispelled and people are finding an OS that works for them without some ot the things they didn’t like about MS. Some of the attraction is also image. Style did wonders for Apple. It’s not the only thing. It opened a lot of closed minds and helped word spread.

    Dell lately has found it’s business model floundering. They will be reorganizing and trying to sell more upscale. Can they shift? Who knows.

    All through the 60′s – 10 years – the VW was immensely popular. People wanted functional solid CHEAP transportation. That was it’s cachet. Same with Dell. Then VW almost went belly up as noone wanted to have people think they were “poor” or “unsophisticated” or “earthhugger/hippies” but that they were “successful”. So they bought upscale. Until VW came out with Hot cars. A new business model.

    Part of my point is that in spite of Apple having a reason for not building a cheap PC to compete with HP at Costco, some people WANT cheap PC’s at Costco. It might give them what they need. It does give them what they want. Wil Apple succeed as a business ignoring this? Will they at some point need to compete there as well? Wait and see.
    If you want to compare Apples and PC’s based on price, then see what you get at the same approximate price point in both specs and build quality – and style, sure – and functionality and supplied software. Is there anything that MUST be added? Add in that cost. Now see waht you get. Compare to your needs. Make your choice. YOUR choice. NOT what you think everyone else should choose.
    Business models can change. The iPod and iPhone reflect that. Good change? Bad change? Balance?
    We’ll see.
    If either package works for you based on actual knowledge and choice of options, then it’s right.
    If you choose based on biases, fine. That’s the case with most people. If it works, great. But it might not be “right”. Just don’t treat bias as thought in your discussions of the merit of either system.

    Oh, I’m rambling again. My 4th cup of coffee? :)

    Hi, Robert. Doubt I made sense but I’m too lazy to go back and check/edit.

    2 hours? I haven’t even watched the 2 hour MacWorld Keynote! :)

    We’ll see.

  78. OK, I’m a Mac user. (Who lives near Redmond!)

    In spte of a responders early comment, this “debate” has again seemed to deteriorate into pointless pointing.

    Apple, Dell, MS etc. are businesses, not shrines! They make business decisions.
    That Apple doesn’t make “cheap PC’s” due to low margins is correct as a business decision. Dell does and made it’s fortunes on that business model. It seemed to be what people wanted. Apple had a niche.
    Now, Apple is on a roll in spite of price. They compete well in price when compared to similar specs AND build quality from other companies. (Yes they’ve screwed up a bit on QC recently. Not the norm. Will hopefully be corrected. Problem if not.)
    This is partly because some of the “myths” about Mac’s are being dispelled and people are finding an OS that works for them without some ot the things they didn’t like about MS. Some of the attraction is also image. Style did wonders for Apple. It’s not the only thing. It opened a lot of closed minds and helped word spread.

    Dell lately has found it’s business model floundering. They will be reorganizing and trying to sell more upscale. Can they shift? Who knows.

    All through the 60′s – 10 years – the VW was immensely popular. People wanted functional solid CHEAP transportation. That was it’s cachet. Same with Dell. Then VW almost went belly up as noone wanted to have people think they were “poor” or “unsophisticated” or “earthhugger/hippies” but that they were “successful”. So they bought upscale. Until VW came out with Hot cars. A new business model.

    Part of my point is that in spite of Apple having a reason for not building a cheap PC to compete with HP at Costco, some people WANT cheap PC’s at Costco. It might give them what they need. It does give them what they want. Wil Apple succeed as a business ignoring this? Will they at some point need to compete there as well? Wait and see.
    If you want to compare Apples and PC’s based on price, then see what you get at the same approximate price point in both specs and build quality – and style, sure – and functionality and supplied software. Is there anything that MUST be added? Add in that cost. Now see waht you get. Compare to your needs. Make your choice. YOUR choice. NOT what you think everyone else should choose.
    Business models can change. The iPod and iPhone reflect that. Good change? Bad change? Balance?
    We’ll see.
    If either package works for you based on actual knowledge and choice of options, then it’s right.
    If you choose based on biases, fine. That’s the case with most people. If it works, great. But it might not be “right”. Just don’t treat bias as thought in your discussions of the merit of either system.

    Oh, I’m rambling again. My 4th cup of coffee? :)

    Hi, Robert. Doubt I made sense but I’m too lazy to go back and check/edit.

    2 hours? I haven’t even watched the 2 hour MacWorld Keynote! :)

    We’ll see.

  79. Steve P – You are saying that Apple will change, Dell will change and the world will change. Who cares?

    If I buy a product today its the condition of the company NOW that matters and maybe the immediate future.
    As of today – I am not too fond of Apple and am more satisfied with Dell. Reason being that the powerbook has been back 3 times for the same reason. Dell gave me a replacement by the third time.

    I want Apple to do something about me because I paid a premium for it. I expect Dell service to be bad – because they have a bad reputation and also because I paid less for it.

    When the Apple CSR says on the 9th day that its only been just over a week and there are a lot of people in the queue ahead of you – there has to be something wrong – RIGHT NOW.
    I don’t care if they change 2 years from now.

    You are claiming companies adapt or not. So what was your point?
    That this argument is moot? :D Quite true. I usually don’t get involved until I feel like I’m screwed.

  80. Steve P – You are saying that Apple will change, Dell will change and the world will change. Who cares?

    If I buy a product today its the condition of the company NOW that matters and maybe the immediate future.
    As of today – I am not too fond of Apple and am more satisfied with Dell. Reason being that the powerbook has been back 3 times for the same reason. Dell gave me a replacement by the third time.

    I want Apple to do something about me because I paid a premium for it. I expect Dell service to be bad – because they have a bad reputation and also because I paid less for it.

    When the Apple CSR says on the 9th day that its only been just over a week and there are a lot of people in the queue ahead of you – there has to be something wrong – RIGHT NOW.
    I don’t care if they change 2 years from now.

    You are claiming companies adapt or not. So what was your point?
    That this argument is moot? :D Quite true. I usually don’t get involved until I feel like I’m screwed.

  81. Robert, Still off topic
    I saw that page, You must spend 1/2 your day with e-mails, 1/2 your day with posts and comments, and then your regular job.

    I’m impressed

    Guy

  82. Robert, Still off topic
    I saw that page, You must spend 1/2 your day with e-mails, 1/2 your day with posts and comments, and then your regular job.

    I’m impressed

    Guy

  83. For all those arguing price and good hardware:

    MacBookPro
    2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
    1680 x 1050 pixels
    2GB memory
    160GB hard drive
    8x double-layer SuperDrive
    ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics with 256MB SDRAM
    $2,799.00

    Dell XPS Mobile Powerhouse
    Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7400 (2.16GHz, 4MB L2 Cache, 667 MHz FSB)
    Video Card
    512MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7950 GTX
    Memory
    1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM
    Hard Drive
    80GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
    Combo or DVD+RW Drive
    24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
    $2,873

    It seems there isn’t much of a big difference between cost and features as some people seem to make. Plus and minuses on both sides…

  84. For all those arguing price and good hardware:

    MacBookPro
    2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
    1680 x 1050 pixels
    2GB memory
    160GB hard drive
    8x double-layer SuperDrive
    ATI Mobility Radeon X1600 graphics with 256MB SDRAM
    $2,799.00

    Dell XPS Mobile Powerhouse
    Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T7400 (2.16GHz, 4MB L2 Cache, 667 MHz FSB)
    Video Card
    512MB NVIDIA® GeForce™ Go 7950 GTX
    Memory
    1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHZ, 2 DIMM
    Hard Drive
    80GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive
    Combo or DVD+RW Drive
    24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
    $2,873

    It seems there isn’t much of a big difference between cost and features as some people seem to make. Plus and minuses on both sides…

  85. Robert,

    Let’s see some Linux commentary in here…

    With very few exceptions, anything you can with Windows or Mac, I can do with Linux AND keep my freedom, no DRM, no money out of my pocket.

    Robert, since you no longer work for MS, how about some objective computing stories. Vista is NOT interesting other than for the shock value people get when they realize they probably have to buy a new computer to even run Vista.

    One would think that with all the money that MS makes, they could actually develop an OS that doesn’t need a hardware upgrade every iteration. Linux doesn’t. I can comfortably run Ubuntu on 256 MB RAM. You cannot run OS X or XP well at all with 256 MB RAM. I don’t run under 256, but I could with little to no trouble.

    They can’t and won’t because there is no money in doing so. Writing tight code has gone out the window largely in the non-unix world. Even OS X has lost the unix tenet of keep it simple. Since MS has deals with the OEMs, making hardware upgrades a requirement makes them additional money.

    Look at Linux, folks. Unless you NEED Windows or OS X, which 90+% of yyou don’t, save your money, your freedom, and your hardware. Switch to an OS that actually is socially responsible.

  86. Robert,

    Let’s see some Linux commentary in here…

    With very few exceptions, anything you can with Windows or Mac, I can do with Linux AND keep my freedom, no DRM, no money out of my pocket.

    Robert, since you no longer work for MS, how about some objective computing stories. Vista is NOT interesting other than for the shock value people get when they realize they probably have to buy a new computer to even run Vista.

    One would think that with all the money that MS makes, they could actually develop an OS that doesn’t need a hardware upgrade every iteration. Linux doesn’t. I can comfortably run Ubuntu on 256 MB RAM. You cannot run OS X or XP well at all with 256 MB RAM. I don’t run under 256, but I could with little to no trouble.

    They can’t and won’t because there is no money in doing so. Writing tight code has gone out the window largely in the non-unix world. Even OS X has lost the unix tenet of keep it simple. Since MS has deals with the OEMs, making hardware upgrades a requirement makes them additional money.

    Look at Linux, folks. Unless you NEED Windows or OS X, which 90+% of yyou don’t, save your money, your freedom, and your hardware. Switch to an OS that actually is socially responsible.

  87. There’s way too much FUD coming from the usual suspects:

    •Met claims to have found a Wintel laptop comparable to a MacBook Pro for under $1000. He carries on endlessly about it. Yet, he offers no proof of the computer’s existence. Just blathering.

    •Jack is apparently incapable of grasping that there are different markets globally. So, he makes the mistake of comparing what is affordable in Kabul or Nairobi to what is affordable in the U.S. In addition, he can’t comprehend that developing world computer users are actually often using either Linux or pirated Microsoft software. Intelligent people know that the $100 laptop project will have more effect in those countries than the yet still largely unaffordable computers of developed countries, Mactel or Wintel.

    •Meanwhile, Chief Sycophant Guy Pellitier brings up the rear with his vacuous remarks. I’m wondering if Guy has sexual designs on Robert.

    But for the insightful remarks by people such as Loganson, Steve P., and Mikey D., reading the comments would be unbearable.

  88. There’s way too much FUD coming from the usual suspects:

    •Met claims to have found a Wintel laptop comparable to a MacBook Pro for under $1000. He carries on endlessly about it. Yet, he offers no proof of the computer’s existence. Just blathering.

    •Jack is apparently incapable of grasping that there are different markets globally. So, he makes the mistake of comparing what is affordable in Kabul or Nairobi to what is affordable in the U.S. In addition, he can’t comprehend that developing world computer users are actually often using either Linux or pirated Microsoft software. Intelligent people know that the $100 laptop project will have more effect in those countries than the yet still largely unaffordable computers of developed countries, Mactel or Wintel.

    •Meanwhile, Chief Sycophant Guy Pellitier brings up the rear with his vacuous remarks. I’m wondering if Guy has sexual designs on Robert.

    But for the insightful remarks by people such as Loganson, Steve P., and Mikey D., reading the comments would be unbearable.

  89. Horribly: heheh, you expect “meat” in a discussion of Mac OSX vs. Vista? Come back next week when we get the video up. Although I don’t know I’d call it “meat.”

  90. Horribly: heheh, you expect “meat” in a discussion of Mac OSX vs. Vista? Come back next week when we get the video up. Although I don’t know I’d call it “meat.”

  91. [...] Robert Scoble posted some great link bait today, starting a Windows Vista vs. Mac OS X debate to pump up the demand for his latest video, in which he talks to four big time technology guys, Fred Davis. Co-founder of Wired Magazine, Sam Levin. Co-founder of the Stanford Mac user’s group, and the guy who does Cool Mac Picks, Harry McCracken, Editor in Chief of PC World, and Jeremy Toeman, who used to work at SlingMedia and is very knowledgeable about all sorts of HD video stuff. Sounds like it could be fun, but the fun has already started in his comments. So, I thought it’d be fun to do it again in 2007 now that Microsoft is shipping Windows Vista. Yeah, fresh meat for the whole debate! (Or was that just the burritos we were eating?) This presented an interesting opportunity to invite four interesting people over to the house last night who would give me insights from both sides of the aisle. Of course Maryam and I gave them some social lubricant and Tres Amigos’ burritos, and recorded it. We burned through two tapes (almost two hours). One thing that’s a given in our industry: we’ll never tire of talking about Apple vs. Microsoft. Even, when, as Fred Davis points out below, there’s not all that much to talk about (the discussions were a lot more fun back in 1989 when there was a truly huge difference between the two OS’s). Source: Windows Vista vs. Mac OSX, the two-hour definitive word [...]

  92. You really should’ve included a developer’s perspective. The functionality provided by the APIs and the ease of use of those APIs is what interests me, not whether I like the colors better on one or the other. Without a real technical discussion, all you’re getting is subjective pissing contests that generate 10 times more heat than light.

  93. You really should’ve included a developer’s perspective. The functionality provided by the APIs and the ease of use of those APIs is what interests me, not whether I like the colors better on one or the other. Without a real technical discussion, all you’re getting is subjective pissing contests that generate 10 times more heat than light.

  94. I hear business uses MS for compatibility? The only thing I see keeping everone on MS OS is Office. I don’t see how Mac machines are more expensive than PCs, once the pain in the ass of struggling with MS system screwups, constant updates and online intrusion into every PC operating system using MS is considered. Most people just use computers for email, internet and document. No one needs MS or the constant upgrades to do that.

    I guess no one talks about Linux anymore, as an alternative to MS?

  95. I hear business uses MS for compatibility? The only thing I see keeping everone on MS OS is Office. I don’t see how Mac machines are more expensive than PCs, once the pain in the ass of struggling with MS system screwups, constant updates and online intrusion into every PC operating system using MS is considered. Most people just use computers for email, internet and document. No one needs MS or the constant upgrades to do that.

    I guess no one talks about Linux anymore, as an alternative to MS?

  96. @73,

    Nail on the head, bro.

    Outside of MS Office, the vast majority of offices could be moved wholesale to Mac OS X, or better yet, Linux. OpenOffice does what the majority of office users need. Those few people that need special software could use Windows.

    I work for a company that is slowly but surely moving over the Linux. I couldn’t be happier. I’m going to love being in the room when the MS software people are told to “go away, we want to keep our money for us, not for your extortionist license costs and per seat madness.” Software should be free, full stop. Sell it if you wish, but not with draconian licenses. The more I stay in IT, the more I hate capitalism and the constant drive for more money, more money, more money. Can’t people just be happy with the basics? Everytime I see someone buy Windows at the store, I think of another MS exec getting his overpriced German POS car.

  97. @73,

    Nail on the head, bro.

    Outside of MS Office, the vast majority of offices could be moved wholesale to Mac OS X, or better yet, Linux. OpenOffice does what the majority of office users need. Those few people that need special software could use Windows.

    I work for a company that is slowly but surely moving over the Linux. I couldn’t be happier. I’m going to love being in the room when the MS software people are told to “go away, we want to keep our money for us, not for your extortionist license costs and per seat madness.” Software should be free, full stop. Sell it if you wish, but not with draconian licenses. The more I stay in IT, the more I hate capitalism and the constant drive for more money, more money, more money. Can’t people just be happy with the basics? Everytime I see someone buy Windows at the store, I think of another MS exec getting his overpriced German POS car.

  98. It seems to me that all major operating systems offer something to different users. The fact that we have a choice is good isn’t it? I and many others would not like to see the dominance of Windows as the most widely used operating system but despite its drawbacks it has actually won the confidence of the most users and is very much the devil we know. If it borrows from the strengths of other operating systems then it is learning to give customers what they want. What I would like Microsoft to do is to improve Vista by looking carefully at competitors without seeking to stamp them out by trying to be all things to all people. There is room for OS diversity as long as interoperability issues are addressed. I run two operating systems on my laptop and enjoy them both as the mood takes me. I just read a Wiliam Gibson interview where he talks about the US being a cultural ‘mixing pot’ where you come out of the pot as an American contrasting this with the Canadian idea of a ‘cultural mosaic’ where your culture remains intact and distinctive but you are part of the mosaic and therefore Canadian whatever that has become as a product of a constantly altering mosaic. I rather like the idea of an operating system mosaic.

  99. It seems to me that all major operating systems offer something to different users. The fact that we have a choice is good isn’t it? I and many others would not like to see the dominance of Windows as the most widely used operating system but despite its drawbacks it has actually won the confidence of the most users and is very much the devil we know. If it borrows from the strengths of other operating systems then it is learning to give customers what they want. What I would like Microsoft to do is to improve Vista by looking carefully at competitors without seeking to stamp them out by trying to be all things to all people. There is room for OS diversity as long as interoperability issues are addressed. I run two operating systems on my laptop and enjoy them both as the mood takes me. I just read a Wiliam Gibson interview where he talks about the US being a cultural ‘mixing pot’ where you come out of the pot as an American contrasting this with the Canadian idea of a ‘cultural mosaic’ where your culture remains intact and distinctive but you are part of the mosaic and therefore Canadian whatever that has become as a product of a constantly altering mosaic. I rather like the idea of an operating system mosaic.

  100. @75,

    You have a point with the mosaic thing, and I like the idea, but you are dead wrong with one thing, and it’s most important…

    You said: “but despite its drawbacks it has actually won the confidence of the most users and is very much the devil we know.”

    Windows has NOT won the confidence of anyone. It is the defacto business OS. MS pressures OEMs like you would not believe. MS refuses to play nice with OEMs that want to ship Linux. MS is scared of Linux and is slowly realizing they are going to lose the war. Why? You cannot compete with free. Period. I’m, not talking just about money, here, but freedom. More and more and more people are going over to Linux. No virus woes, not spyware, since the OS is not condusive what with root or sudo required to do anything.

    Overall, Linux is a better system, friendly choice mosaic or not. Forget eye candy, forget stupid widgets that make an OS look cool. Let’s talk brass tacks and workings. Linux is far better designed. Actually, FreeBSD is probably the best engineering in an OS out there. Full stop. After all, MS took their networking stack for their own under the BSD license.

  101. @75,

    You have a point with the mosaic thing, and I like the idea, but you are dead wrong with one thing, and it’s most important…

    You said: “but despite its drawbacks it has actually won the confidence of the most users and is very much the devil we know.”

    Windows has NOT won the confidence of anyone. It is the defacto business OS. MS pressures OEMs like you would not believe. MS refuses to play nice with OEMs that want to ship Linux. MS is scared of Linux and is slowly realizing they are going to lose the war. Why? You cannot compete with free. Period. I’m, not talking just about money, here, but freedom. More and more and more people are going over to Linux. No virus woes, not spyware, since the OS is not condusive what with root or sudo required to do anything.

    Overall, Linux is a better system, friendly choice mosaic or not. Forget eye candy, forget stupid widgets that make an OS look cool. Let’s talk brass tacks and workings. Linux is far better designed. Actually, FreeBSD is probably the best engineering in an OS out there. Full stop. After all, MS took their networking stack for their own under the BSD license.

  102. Reply to 46.

    You’re right. I went to Dell and customized a mid-level computer in terms of performance. I was surprised to see such a high price.

    I don’t know what led me to Apple.com, as I had little knowledge of Macs. But I’m glad I went. I found a Mac with better specs for less than the Dell.

    I’m a Mac user now “and I’m loving every minute of it!”

  103. Reply to 46.

    You’re right. I went to Dell and customized a mid-level computer in terms of performance. I was surprised to see such a high price.

    I don’t know what led me to Apple.com, as I had little knowledge of Macs. But I’m glad I went. I found a Mac with better specs for less than the Dell.

    I’m a Mac user now “and I’m loving every minute of it!”

  104. We’ve been dorking around with Vista for a while. It is fun to use but unfortunately repeatedly crashed us when using Vegas 7.0. Had to use a “previous version of windows”. Anyway, I am going to a lunch and learn on Vista in a couple of weeks and will be posting a podcast on it. Anyone who wants me to send them an email when I have it posted I invite to drop me a comment. http://www.pugettown.com Or you could just subscribe to my RSS feed. ;)

    Oh, and I am considering getting a Mac for the first time since 1985ish when we had a 512K Mac. I can’t even imagine trying to use such a machine as a calculator, now. I am wondering if there is a reason all the vloggers use Mac? Does Mac have a better editing program than Vegas? Or is it just trendy and cool? Tell me!

  105. We’ve been dorking around with Vista for a while. It is fun to use but unfortunately repeatedly crashed us when using Vegas 7.0. Had to use a “previous version of windows”. Anyway, I am going to a lunch and learn on Vista in a couple of weeks and will be posting a podcast on it. Anyone who wants me to send them an email when I have it posted I invite to drop me a comment. http://www.pugettown.com Or you could just subscribe to my RSS feed. ;)

    Oh, and I am considering getting a Mac for the first time since 1985ish when we had a 512K Mac. I can’t even imagine trying to use such a machine as a calculator, now. I am wondering if there is a reason all the vloggers use Mac? Does Mac have a better editing program than Vegas? Or is it just trendy and cool? Tell me!

  106. Computing Philosophies:

    Windows Computers require — Microsoft and Hardware Vendor (HP, Dell, IBM, el cheapo, etc.).
    Macintosh Computers require — Apple and Apple

    Microsoft Windows OS User Environment is Application-centric. Document Windows open in an Application Window and can not move out of the application window.

    Apple OS X User Environment is Document-centric. Document Windows are free of the application constraints, and can freely be moved.

    Microsoft Windows started with CP/M, DOS, a text-based metaphor.
    Apple Macintosh started with Xerox Parc Work, a graphics-based metaphor.

    Microsoft Windows OS Upgrade Cycle – 5 to 10 years.
    Apple Mac OS X Upgrade Cycle – 1 to 2 years.

    Information or Computing Markets:

    90 to 95% of corporate uses are primarily text-based — Memos, e-mails, spreadsheets, data entry etc.

    Individual and small business uses are a mix of static (text and graphics) and dynamic (audio and video) content.

    Large Corporations area like Exxon Valdez. They require a lot of time to make decisions & change.
    Small Businesses and individuals are more agile and can change faster.

    Marketwise small business and individual users constitute a much bigger slice of the information needs market than corporations.

    Strategy:

    It is therefore better to focus on one larger individual and small business market and set the direction than compete in a smaller fairly stagnant corporate market.

    Bottom Line:

    “Apple leads and Microsoft follows by copying Apple”.

  107. Computing Philosophies:

    Windows Computers require — Microsoft and Hardware Vendor (HP, Dell, IBM, el cheapo, etc.).
    Macintosh Computers require — Apple and Apple

    Microsoft Windows OS User Environment is Application-centric. Document Windows open in an Application Window and can not move out of the application window.

    Apple OS X User Environment is Document-centric. Document Windows are free of the application constraints, and can freely be moved.

    Microsoft Windows started with CP/M, DOS, a text-based metaphor.
    Apple Macintosh started with Xerox Parc Work, a graphics-based metaphor.

    Microsoft Windows OS Upgrade Cycle – 5 to 10 years.
    Apple Mac OS X Upgrade Cycle – 1 to 2 years.

    Information or Computing Markets:

    90 to 95% of corporate uses are primarily text-based — Memos, e-mails, spreadsheets, data entry etc.

    Individual and small business uses are a mix of static (text and graphics) and dynamic (audio and video) content.

    Large Corporations area like Exxon Valdez. They require a lot of time to make decisions & change.
    Small Businesses and individuals are more agile and can change faster.

    Marketwise small business and individual users constitute a much bigger slice of the information needs market than corporations.

    Strategy:

    It is therefore better to focus on one larger individual and small business market and set the direction than compete in a smaller fairly stagnant corporate market.

    Bottom Line:

    “Apple leads and Microsoft follows by copying Apple”.

  108. Computing Philosophies:

    Windows Computers require — Microsoft and Hardware Vendor (HP, Dell, IBM, el cheapo, etc.).
    Macintosh Computers require — Apple and Apple

    Microsoft Windows OS User Environment is Application-centric. Document Windows open in an Application Window and can not move out of the application window.

    Apple OS X User Environment is Document-centric. Document Windows are free of the application constraints, and can freely be moved.

    Microsoft Windows started with CP/M, DOS, a text-based metaphor.
    Apple Macintosh started with Xerox Parc Work, a graphics-based metaphor.

    Microsoft Windows OS Upgrade Cycle – 5 to 10 years.
    Apple Mac OS X Upgrade Cycle – 1 to 2 years.

    Information or Computing Markets:

    90 to 95% of corporate uses are primarily text-based — Memos, e-mails, spreadsheets, data entry etc.

    Individual and small business uses are a mix of static (text and graphics) and dynamic (audio and video) content.

    Large Corporations are like Exxon Valdez. They require a lot of time to make decisions & change.
    Small Businesses and individuals are more agile and can change faster.

    Marketwise small business and individual users constitute a much bigger slice of the information needs market than corporations.

    Strategy:

    It is therefore better to focus on one larger individual and small business market and set the direction than compete in a smaller fairly stagnant corporate market.

    Bottom Line:

    “Apple leads and Microsoft follows by copying Apple”.

  109. Computing Philosophies:

    Windows Computers require — Microsoft and Hardware Vendor (HP, Dell, IBM, el cheapo, etc.).
    Macintosh Computers require — Apple and Apple

    Microsoft Windows OS User Environment is Application-centric. Document Windows open in an Application Window and can not move out of the application window.

    Apple OS X User Environment is Document-centric. Document Windows are free of the application constraints, and can freely be moved.

    Microsoft Windows started with CP/M, DOS, a text-based metaphor.
    Apple Macintosh started with Xerox Parc Work, a graphics-based metaphor.

    Microsoft Windows OS Upgrade Cycle – 5 to 10 years.
    Apple Mac OS X Upgrade Cycle – 1 to 2 years.

    Information or Computing Markets:

    90 to 95% of corporate uses are primarily text-based — Memos, e-mails, spreadsheets, data entry etc.

    Individual and small business uses are a mix of static (text and graphics) and dynamic (audio and video) content.

    Large Corporations are like Exxon Valdez. They require a lot of time to make decisions & change.
    Small Businesses and individuals are more agile and can change faster.

    Marketwise small business and individual users constitute a much bigger slice of the information needs market than corporations.

    Strategy:

    It is therefore better to focus on one larger individual and small business market and set the direction than compete in a smaller fairly stagnant corporate market.

    Bottom Line:

    “Apple leads and Microsoft follows by copying Apple”.

  110. Yup, Tiger envy indeed. Actual docs published here:

    http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/

    I don’t know how Windows fanboys can continue to defend this company. In the email concerning DR-DOS back in 1990, MS actually uses the term FUD in their email. Anything to discredit a better technology. Glad, I’ve been an Apple user since ’89.

    Wonder what will happen days after VISTA is introduced. Hmmmm, maybe an Apple special event announcing the release of Mac OS X v10.5, a.k.a “Leopard?

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html

  111. Yup, Tiger envy indeed. Actual docs published here:

    http://www.iowaconsumercase.org/

    I don’t know how Windows fanboys can continue to defend this company. In the email concerning DR-DOS back in 1990, MS actually uses the term FUD in their email. Anything to discredit a better technology. Glad, I’ve been an Apple user since ’89.

    Wonder what will happen days after VISTA is introduced. Hmmmm, maybe an Apple special event announcing the release of Mac OS X v10.5, a.k.a “Leopard?

    http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/index.html

  112. 66 Podesta says
    > •Jack is apparently incapable of grasping
    > that there are different markets globally.

    > In addition, he can’t comprehend that
    > developing world computer users are actually
    > often using either Linux or pirated Microsoft
    > software.

    Wow, that’s amazing! You’ve taken *exactly* the points that I was making, and claimed that I wasn’t making them. How strange!

    OK, I’ll assume you were doing a quick skim, not actually taking stuff in. We’ve all done it. I won’t insult your intelligence, even though that seems to be your style ;-)

  113. 66 Podesta says
    > •Jack is apparently incapable of grasping
    > that there are different markets globally.

    > In addition, he can’t comprehend that
    > developing world computer users are actually
    > often using either Linux or pirated Microsoft
    > software.

    Wow, that’s amazing! You’ve taken *exactly* the points that I was making, and claimed that I wasn’t making them. How strange!

    OK, I’ll assume you were doing a quick skim, not actually taking stuff in. We’ve all done it. I won’t insult your intelligence, even though that seems to be your style ;-)

  114. I knew it was only a matter of time before the Linux crowd showed up.

    And where did I say that I’d be running free software? Not that free software sucks because I have found many good freeware (and FOSS, including Firefox) applications for Windows as a matter of fact.

    Ubuntu is cool, but it still cannot come even close to what Windows or OSX can do with multimedia. Talk to me after the next five versions of (place goofy animal name here) comes out.

    But hey, it least there’s a satanic version. Hows that for freedom?

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got plenty of good things to say about Ubuntu too, but this discussion is about Vista vs OSX.

    Besides people, is a couple hundred dollars really that much? In a year you will have paid it off for about $.55/day. Are you really that cheap? If so, I suggest you consider a career change.

  115. I knew it was only a matter of time before the Linux crowd showed up.

    And where did I say that I’d be running free software? Not that free software sucks because I have found many good freeware (and FOSS, including Firefox) applications for Windows as a matter of fact.

    Ubuntu is cool, but it still cannot come even close to what Windows or OSX can do with multimedia. Talk to me after the next five versions of (place goofy animal name here) comes out.

    But hey, it least there’s a satanic version. Hows that for freedom?

    Don’t get me wrong, I’ve got plenty of good things to say about Ubuntu too, but this discussion is about Vista vs OSX.

    Besides people, is a couple hundred dollars really that much? In a year you will have paid it off for about $.55/day. Are you really that cheap? If so, I suggest you consider a career change.

  116. @83

    Daniel, how can you continue to defend Apple?
    1. Using (abusing) monopoly power as sole possessor of Mac Hardware specs to kill off the Mac clone market, which was providing better Mac computers than Apple at lower prices.

    2. Using monopoly power as sole provider of the Universal Binary specs to force competing IDE makers out of the market. This forced the big Mac devs like Adobe and Microsoft to abandon Metrowerks and move all development to Apple’s XCode, which is inferior.

    3. Portraying iPhone as the second coming, only to have it revealed by more rational analysis that it ain’t all that.

    4. Jobs OK’ing backdating of stock options (after he first denied knowing about them, then denied OK’ing them), and have his lackies falsify that this had been OK’ed by a Board meeting that never really took place. And Jobs, realizing that he might get caught, relinquished the options, but had them replaced with grants, which were again, backdated to increase his profit.

    5. Apple’s top revenue generator, the iPod, is made with Asian sweatshop labor.

    6. Apple has been rated by multiple environment organizations as the “least green” tech company, with wanton pollution.

    7. Apple’s browser, which the force down Mac user’s throats, is locked in wrt its search provider due to exclusive deal with Google. A user can’t even add secondary search providers, let alone change the default.

    8. Stealing ideas from Konfabulator.

    9. Stealing ideas from the original Sherlock dev.

    10. Apple is the primary pusher of DRM.

    11. Apple, as a member of BDA, tried to get VC-1 removed from the BDA spec, despite evidence that it is the best codec for hi-def discs today.

    12. Over the years, Apple has issued legal threats to bloggers multiple times. The most recent being just a couple weeks ago when bloggers had the temerity to blog about the iPhones “skins” that are already appearing for Palm and WinMoble smartphones (which render the iPhone useless, since smartphones already do more than the iPhone (at less price), but don’t look as pretty; the iPhone “skins” eliminate that iPhone advantage, so it’s now nothing more than a rich man’s toy that is about style over substance).

  117. @83

    Daniel, how can you continue to defend Apple?
    1. Using (abusing) monopoly power as sole possessor of Mac Hardware specs to kill off the Mac clone market, which was providing better Mac computers than Apple at lower prices.

    2. Using monopoly power as sole provider of the Universal Binary specs to force competing IDE makers out of the market. This forced the big Mac devs like Adobe and Microsoft to abandon Metrowerks and move all development to Apple’s XCode, which is inferior.

    3. Portraying iPhone as the second coming, only to have it revealed by more rational analysis that it ain’t all that.

    4. Jobs OK’ing backdating of stock options (after he first denied knowing about them, then denied OK’ing them), and have his lackies falsify that this had been OK’ed by a Board meeting that never really took place. And Jobs, realizing that he might get caught, relinquished the options, but had them replaced with grants, which were again, backdated to increase his profit.

    5. Apple’s top revenue generator, the iPod, is made with Asian sweatshop labor.

    6. Apple has been rated by multiple environment organizations as the “least green” tech company, with wanton pollution.

    7. Apple’s browser, which the force down Mac user’s throats, is locked in wrt its search provider due to exclusive deal with Google. A user can’t even add secondary search providers, let alone change the default.

    8. Stealing ideas from Konfabulator.

    9. Stealing ideas from the original Sherlock dev.

    10. Apple is the primary pusher of DRM.

    11. Apple, as a member of BDA, tried to get VC-1 removed from the BDA spec, despite evidence that it is the best codec for hi-def discs today.

    12. Over the years, Apple has issued legal threats to bloggers multiple times. The most recent being just a couple weeks ago when bloggers had the temerity to blog about the iPhones “skins” that are already appearing for Palm and WinMoble smartphones (which render the iPhone useless, since smartphones already do more than the iPhone (at less price), but don’t look as pretty; the iPhone “skins” eliminate that iPhone advantage, so it’s now nothing more than a rich man’s toy that is about style over substance).

  118. 1. Using (abusing) monopoly power as sole possessor of Mac Hardware specs to kill off the Mac clone market, which was providing better Mac computers than Apple at lower prices.

    How so? I know MS hasn’t abused it monopoly power in any way. Apple is not a monopoly…look the word up. No more than sony for it’s play station or MS’s XBOX.

    2. Using monopoly power as sole provider of the Universal Binary specs to force competing IDE makers out of the market. This forced the big Mac devs like Adobe and Microsoft to abandon Metrowerks and move all development to Apple’s XCode, which is inferior.

    Why is it inferior? Because you say so?

    3. Portraying iPhone as the second coming, only to have it revealed by more rational analysis that it ain’t all that.

    It hasn’t even hit the market. How exactly do you know? Again talking out of your ass.

    4. Jobs OK’ing backdating of stock options (after he first denied knowing about them, then denied OK’ing them), and have his lackies falsify that this had been OK’ed by a Board meeting that never really took place. And Jobs, realizing that he might get caught, relinquished the options, but had them replaced with grants, which were again, backdated to increase his profit.

    Again you know everything that happened. We’ll see. MS did this all through the nineties (backdating).

    5. Apple’s top revenue generator, the iPod, is made with Asian sweatshop labor.
    According to who? What about Dell, HP, MS do they do business in china & India? What about MSN in China? Restricting free speech. What does this have to do with buying a computer? Again talking out of your ass.

    6. Apple has been rated by multiple environment organizations as the “least green” tech company, with wanton pollution.

    More nonsense….accordinng to the EPA they are one of the top environmental tech companies.

    7. Apple’s browser, which the force down Mac user’s throats, is locked in wrt its search provider due to exclusive deal with Google. A user can’t even add secondary search providers, let alone change the default

    I don’t have to use Apples web browser. I have plenty of other options. If I do, bookmarking other search sites is pretty easy. A non issue. If you want to use another search engine there are also free apps such as Safari enhancer.

    8. Stealing ideas from Konfabulator.
    Apple has had desktop accessories years before Konfabulator. MS pretty much borrowed that too. Even before Vista & it’s “Widgets”.

    10. Apple is the primary pusher of DRM.
    This one is funny. Go back & look up MS’s Janus to see the direction that MS was taking the industry. The recording & entertainment industry will not let anyone sell music, movies, etc. without DRM. If anything Apple’s has been the least restrictive. Sounds more like typical MS speak.

    12. Over the years, Apple has issued legal threats to bloggers multiple times. The most recent being just a couple weeks ago when bloggers had the temerity to blog about the iPhones “skins” that are already appearing for Palm and WinMoble smartphones (which render the iPhone useless, since smartphones already do more than the iPhone (at less price), but don’t look as pretty; the iPhone “skins” eliminate that iPhone advantage, so it’s now nothing more than a rich man’s toy that is about style over substance).

    Do you create anything…I see nothing wrong with companies defending copyright. The iPhone hasn’t even hit the market & yet here is another expert. I bet you haven’t been within 100 miles of one, yet you know it all. It amazes me how MS apologists have the gall to talk about business practices, computer security, DRM, backdating, Legals issues…the list goes on & on, and with a straight face. Yeah, evil Apple.

  119. 1. Using (abusing) monopoly power as sole possessor of Mac Hardware specs to kill off the Mac clone market, which was providing better Mac computers than Apple at lower prices.

    How so? I know MS hasn’t abused it monopoly power in any way. Apple is not a monopoly…look the word up. No more than sony for it’s play station or MS’s XBOX.

    2. Using monopoly power as sole provider of the Universal Binary specs to force competing IDE makers out of the market. This forced the big Mac devs like Adobe and Microsoft to abandon Metrowerks and move all development to Apple’s XCode, which is inferior.

    Why is it inferior? Because you say so?

    3. Portraying iPhone as the second coming, only to have it revealed by more rational analysis that it ain’t all that.

    It hasn’t even hit the market. How exactly do you know? Again talking out of your ass.

    4. Jobs OK’ing backdating of stock options (after he first denied knowing about them, then denied OK’ing them), and have his lackies falsify that this had been OK’ed by a Board meeting that never really took place. And Jobs, realizing that he might get caught, relinquished the options, but had them replaced with grants, which were again, backdated to increase his profit.

    Again you know everything that happened. We’ll see. MS did this all through the nineties (backdating).

    5. Apple’s top revenue generator, the iPod, is made with Asian sweatshop labor.
    According to who? What about Dell, HP, MS do they do business in china & India? What about MSN in China? Restricting free speech. What does this have to do with buying a computer? Again talking out of your ass.

    6. Apple has been rated by multiple environment organizations as the “least green” tech company, with wanton pollution.

    More nonsense….accordinng to the EPA they are one of the top environmental tech companies.

    7. Apple’s browser, which the force down Mac user’s throats, is locked in wrt its search provider due to exclusive deal with Google. A user can’t even add secondary search providers, let alone change the default

    I don’t have to use Apples web browser. I have plenty of other options. If I do, bookmarking other search sites is pretty easy. A non issue. If you want to use another search engine there are also free apps such as Safari enhancer.

    8. Stealing ideas from Konfabulator.
    Apple has had desktop accessories years before Konfabulator. MS pretty much borrowed that too. Even before Vista & it’s “Widgets”.

    10. Apple is the primary pusher of DRM.
    This one is funny. Go back & look up MS’s Janus to see the direction that MS was taking the industry. The recording & entertainment industry will not let anyone sell music, movies, etc. without DRM. If anything Apple’s has been the least restrictive. Sounds more like typical MS speak.

    12. Over the years, Apple has issued legal threats to bloggers multiple times. The most recent being just a couple weeks ago when bloggers had the temerity to blog about the iPhones “skins” that are already appearing for Palm and WinMoble smartphones (which render the iPhone useless, since smartphones already do more than the iPhone (at less price), but don’t look as pretty; the iPhone “skins” eliminate that iPhone advantage, so it’s now nothing more than a rich man’s toy that is about style over substance).

    Do you create anything…I see nothing wrong with companies defending copyright. The iPhone hasn’t even hit the market & yet here is another expert. I bet you haven’t been within 100 miles of one, yet you know it all. It amazes me how MS apologists have the gall to talk about business practices, computer security, DRM, backdating, Legals issues…the list goes on & on, and with a straight face. Yeah, evil Apple.

  120. People want what works. Please also want choices.

    What medium to large enterprise business do you know of uses Mac on their desktop environment?

    How many enterprises use Macs on the back end (servers for databases, printers, files, etc…)?

    Take a look at Netcraft and review the trends. Microsoft is on the rise for the enterprise servers while Linux is on a steep decline. We all know that in the desktop world, the only functional choice is Microsoft, Mac does not like to play, and Linux, well it has and never will be a player.

    Businesses want what works, they want interoperability, and they want a structure and framework that they can build around. With Microsoft products you can at least upgrade them. Try upgrading Linux platforms sometime, it ain’t so easy. Not only that, try repairing some sort of corrupt file or directory in Linux.

    Where did Mac go in this discussion?

    Yes, it was relegated to the category of, “It is pretty to look at”.

    In truth Vista will cost a little more, or a lot more, depending on your intentions. Upgrading as pointed out earlier is not expensive. Micorosoft released their last OS in 2001, six years ago folks, so what is the problem here as far as upgrades goes?

    So the last OS (XP) was six years ago, though Longhorn (server 2007) will be out next year, at least the current sea of software is nearly 100% compatible with Vista. On the negative side of things as relating to Microsoft, we all know that Microsoft has a bad habit of releasing software too soon, using the public as beta testers essentially.

    But in the case of Vista, Microsoft has hired hackers (or would crackers be more appropriate in this case?) to attempt to find problems. Their beta testing was more wide spread than anything we have ever seen.

    All this talk about spying on us, using IE7 (which I refuse to use I must confess as I think FF is a superior browser) and being spied on, that is hog wash. You don’t think Apple can do the same friggen thing with their stupid i-this and i-that (Mac platform based software)? You don’t think Steve Jobs knows what you had for dinner?

    C’mon you Mac “fan-people”, being politically correct since most Mac lovers are friggen libs anyway, open your eyes, get out of SF or Seattle for a while, check out the real world.

    Those that assume Microsoft tracks what “YOU” do, and where “YOU” go on the internet are likely in need of medication. It is no different that Google tracking where you go and what you view, which they do right now! Can you imagine the field day attorneys would have if Microsoft was violating ANY laws with regards to privacy and confidentiality? Please…

    We want solutions that simply work. Is Mac OSX better? Depends on what better is. I want choices and I want flexibility, two things that are severely limited in the Mac world today, and infinitely ascent in the desktop Linux world. I say that it is good that Mac is out there on the fringe, and that Linux wants to be viewed as more than a bastard child to Mac and Windows (since its desktops try to copy Windows) because it could potentially pose a threat to Microsoft, and that is good for the consumer.

  121. People want what works. Please also want choices.

    What medium to large enterprise business do you know of uses Mac on their desktop environment?

    How many enterprises use Macs on the back end (servers for databases, printers, files, etc…)?

    Take a look at Netcraft and review the trends. Microsoft is on the rise for the enterprise servers while Linux is on a steep decline. We all know that in the desktop world, the only functional choice is Microsoft, Mac does not like to play, and Linux, well it has and never will be a player.

    Businesses want what works, they want interoperability, and they want a structure and framework that they can build around. With Microsoft products you can at least upgrade them. Try upgrading Linux platforms sometime, it ain’t so easy. Not only that, try repairing some sort of corrupt file or directory in Linux.

    Where did Mac go in this discussion?

    Yes, it was relegated to the category of, “It is pretty to look at”.

    In truth Vista will cost a little more, or a lot more, depending on your intentions. Upgrading as pointed out earlier is not expensive. Micorosoft released their last OS in 2001, six years ago folks, so what is the problem here as far as upgrades goes?

    So the last OS (XP) was six years ago, though Longhorn (server 2007) will be out next year, at least the current sea of software is nearly 100% compatible with Vista. On the negative side of things as relating to Microsoft, we all know that Microsoft has a bad habit of releasing software too soon, using the public as beta testers essentially.

    But in the case of Vista, Microsoft has hired hackers (or would crackers be more appropriate in this case?) to attempt to find problems. Their beta testing was more wide spread than anything we have ever seen.

    All this talk about spying on us, using IE7 (which I refuse to use I must confess as I think FF is a superior browser) and being spied on, that is hog wash. You don’t think Apple can do the same friggen thing with their stupid i-this and i-that (Mac platform based software)? You don’t think Steve Jobs knows what you had for dinner?

    C’mon you Mac “fan-people”, being politically correct since most Mac lovers are friggen libs anyway, open your eyes, get out of SF or Seattle for a while, check out the real world.

    Those that assume Microsoft tracks what “YOU” do, and where “YOU” go on the internet are likely in need of medication. It is no different that Google tracking where you go and what you view, which they do right now! Can you imagine the field day attorneys would have if Microsoft was violating ANY laws with regards to privacy and confidentiality? Please…

    We want solutions that simply work. Is Mac OSX better? Depends on what better is. I want choices and I want flexibility, two things that are severely limited in the Mac world today, and infinitely ascent in the desktop Linux world. I say that it is good that Mac is out there on the fringe, and that Linux wants to be viewed as more than a bastard child to Mac and Windows (since its desktops try to copy Windows) because it could potentially pose a threat to Microsoft, and that is good for the consumer.

  122. [...] “>Windows Vista vs. Mac OSX, the twohour definitive word I think that this article describes very interesting problem and added it to my blog.I remember having great discussions about Microsoft vs. Apple back in the 1980s and 1990s. We all survived those years without too many hurt feelings. So, I thought it#8217d be fun to do it again in 2007 now that Microsoft is shipping Windows Vista. Yeah, fresh meat for the whole debate! Or was t…My thoughts is that this can help people around the world.Link to original article [...]

  123. Here’s the strengths of each OS summed up in less than 2 hours:
    Windows = Wow! Rockin’ games!
    Mac OS = Everything else

    I just saved all of you two hours of your life you will never get back.

    and in regards to this: “the discussions were a lot more fun back in 1989 when there was a truly huge difference between the two OS’s”

    You mean before Microsoft moved their spies….errr… R&D department to Cupertino.

    If you want to see what Windows is going to be doing in 5 years, just watch what Apple is doing today.

    Looking forward to your comparison of Leopard to Vista…. here’s my predicted results of each OS’s strengths:
    Vista = Wow! Rockin’ Games!
    Leopard = Everything else

  124. Here’s the strengths of each OS summed up in less than 2 hours:
    Windows = Wow! Rockin’ games!
    Mac OS = Everything else

    I just saved all of you two hours of your life you will never get back.

    and in regards to this: “the discussions were a lot more fun back in 1989 when there was a truly huge difference between the two OS’s”

    You mean before Microsoft moved their spies….errr… R&D department to Cupertino.

    If you want to see what Windows is going to be doing in 5 years, just watch what Apple is doing today.

    Looking forward to your comparison of Leopard to Vista…. here’s my predicted results of each OS’s strengths:
    Vista = Wow! Rockin’ Games!
    Leopard = Everything else

  125. Seriously, I’ve already had training on Vista, and it looks all fancy, shiny and nice and so, but seriously. Max OSX is as all Mac OS slow and recourse demanding. The so called multitasking is a joke, and still using only one mouse button ? well If your first going to use a mouse, then you should at least be able to have more than one button. only having one button doesn’t simplify, it just irritates. ANd for wondows Vista, fancy enough but I’m tired of Microsoft’s unstable crap . The Multitasking sucks. Ither you have to spend a fortune on your computer for it to work halfway decent, of you are sitting and tapping on the table, waiting for the machine to finish it’s tasks. There are alternatives out there such as Linux, but Linux systems work too much like the OSX. I still miss the days of my tidy Old amiga, when I could be rendering a scene from Babylon 5 using lightwave, at the same time as I was playing my MP3′s and editing a document in wordworth, without having any lagging of the computer or having to wait for the computer to finish off it’s job before I could go on with my job. and oh, yes i could forget to add the last name to a file, and the system would still open the file in the correct program, because the file header told the system what type of file it was, not a stupid three didigt last name. and as far as usability goes. I miss being able to change the language the operating system uses in a blink of an eye for my norwegian friends when they are visiting. and choosing the visual effects on the OS by installing third party software. Vista and OSX are still the same old shit as these two companies have pushed out the past decade and a half. the only thing different is the amount of recourses they require, and a lot of fancy visual effects.

  126. Seriously, I’ve already had training on Vista, and it looks all fancy, shiny and nice and so, but seriously. Max OSX is as all Mac OS slow and recourse demanding. The so called multitasking is a joke, and still using only one mouse button ? well If your first going to use a mouse, then you should at least be able to have more than one button. only having one button doesn’t simplify, it just irritates. ANd for wondows Vista, fancy enough but I’m tired of Microsoft’s unstable crap . The Multitasking sucks. Ither you have to spend a fortune on your computer for it to work halfway decent, of you are sitting and tapping on the table, waiting for the machine to finish it’s tasks. There are alternatives out there such as Linux, but Linux systems work too much like the OSX. I still miss the days of my tidy Old amiga, when I could be rendering a scene from Babylon 5 using lightwave, at the same time as I was playing my MP3′s and editing a document in wordworth, without having any lagging of the computer or having to wait for the computer to finish off it’s job before I could go on with my job. and oh, yes i could forget to add the last name to a file, and the system would still open the file in the correct program, because the file header told the system what type of file it was, not a stupid three didigt last name. and as far as usability goes. I miss being able to change the language the operating system uses in a blink of an eye for my norwegian friends when they are visiting. and choosing the visual effects on the OS by installing third party software. Vista and OSX are still the same old shit as these two companies have pushed out the past decade and a half. the only thing different is the amount of recourses they require, and a lot of fancy visual effects.

  127. As far as the MAC os X vs the windows vista or any other windows os there are pros and cons to both such as MAC OSx is better for editing photos and videos as well as building web sites. Basically MAC is good for multimedia editing whereas microsoft is better for gamers as well as just the average computer user.
    So, i dont really support either one persay but do some research before you impulse buy and get what you need.

  128. As far as the MAC os X vs the windows vista or any other windows os there are pros and cons to both such as MAC OSx is better for editing photos and videos as well as building web sites. Basically MAC is good for multimedia editing whereas microsoft is better for gamers as well as just the average computer user.
    So, i dont really support either one persay but do some research before you impulse buy and get what you need.

  129. I’ll only test out the MAC OS if it’s able to run on Dell or HP computers since those are the ones most people I know own as well as myself.

  130. I’ll only test out the MAC OS if it’s able to run on Dell or HP computers since those are the ones most people I know own as well as myself.

  131. I think it is great that everyone has a choice these days on what OS system that they want to run. I finally made the switch to a Mac a month ago because I was just completely tired of the whole microsoft experience it was out of control like an over grown garden.

    Gone were the good old days of the Amiga 500, or so I thought. Thank you Apple you have made computing fun once again.

    Once you go Mac, you won’t go back!

  132. I think it is great that everyone has a choice these days on what OS system that they want to run. I finally made the switch to a Mac a month ago because I was just completely tired of the whole microsoft experience it was out of control like an over grown garden.

    Gone were the good old days of the Amiga 500, or so I thought. Thank you Apple you have made computing fun once again.

    Once you go Mac, you won’t go back!

  133. I go for pc’s. a world without pc’s is impossible right now. a world without macs would be a little bit less art and a few missing good advertisements.

  134. I go for pc’s. a world without pc’s is impossible right now. a world without macs would be a little bit less art and a few missing good advertisements.

  135. reading all these comments not really helping me to choose mac or vista.
    i’m thinking about buying a notebook either macbook or toshiba satellite which runs on windows.
    i’m just a student though with tight budget and surrounded by friends using windows.
    i never use mac before and i afraid that some of the software i’m been using flash, sound forge ect cannot be use in mac.

  136. reading all these comments not really helping me to choose mac or vista.
    i’m thinking about buying a notebook either macbook or toshiba satellite which runs on windows.
    i’m just a student though with tight budget and surrounded by friends using windows.
    i never use mac before and i afraid that some of the software i’m been using flash, sound forge ect cannot be use in mac.

  137. The bottom line is that the greater majority prefers Windows than MAC. That is proven by how many windows os are sold worldwide compared to MAC OS.

    Operating Systems are tools not a video games or an artworks.

  138. The bottom line is that the greater majority prefers Windows than MAC. That is proven by how many windows os are sold worldwide compared to MAC OS.

    Operating Systems are tools not a video games or an artworks.

  139. It’s not that the greater majority prefers windows, its only that MS has a huge budget in which to brainwash idiots into buying them, if you had a true vote and preferences, the greater majority would choose MAC every time, also cheap computers = cheap price so the fake marketing leads the cows into buying the crap. People would prefer stability over price but often price winds out, so its not that people prefer it, they are being brainwashed same goes for local businesses they only consider price bottom line not quality. 1 good mac is better than 10 pcs anyday of the week. You won’t find a better tool than the mac, i predict the future, mac’s will be in the lead while windows will be yesterdays junk pile

  140. It’s not that the greater majority prefers windows, its only that MS has a huge budget in which to brainwash idiots into buying them, if you had a true vote and preferences, the greater majority would choose MAC every time, also cheap computers = cheap price so the fake marketing leads the cows into buying the crap. People would prefer stability over price but often price winds out, so its not that people prefer it, they are being brainwashed same goes for local businesses they only consider price bottom line not quality. 1 good mac is better than 10 pcs anyday of the week. You won’t find a better tool than the mac, i predict the future, mac’s will be in the lead while windows will be yesterdays junk pile

  141. Ok, Windows Vista already has over 144000 viruses out there, you’d end up paying $2000.00 (USD) or more on a windows Vista computer with an Anti-virus & etc. than you’d have to pay for it to be repaired. the only thing us MAC users have to worry about is hardware problems that RARELY occur, I have a iBook (G3) original with 300MHz running mac os x 10.3.9 (or panther) and it runs smoothly, try to run windows ME on that and do you know what you have? A 3 hour log in. Mac’s iLife is $180.00 (USD) with 5 programs. iMovie, iDvd, iPhoto, GarageBand, iWeb, Quicktime Pro and iTunes. macs are $1200.00 (USD) and come with iLife. so how much are you garbage users paying for your crap bucket to be tuned for vista?

  142. Ok, Windows Vista already has over 144000 viruses out there, you’d end up paying $2000.00 (USD) or more on a windows Vista computer with an Anti-virus & etc. than you’d have to pay for it to be repaired. the only thing us MAC users have to worry about is hardware problems that RARELY occur, I have a iBook (G3) original with 300MHz running mac os x 10.3.9 (or panther) and it runs smoothly, try to run windows ME on that and do you know what you have? A 3 hour log in. Mac’s iLife is $180.00 (USD) with 5 programs. iMovie, iDvd, iPhoto, GarageBand, iWeb, Quicktime Pro and iTunes. macs are $1200.00 (USD) and come with iLife. so how much are you garbage users paying for your crap bucket to be tuned for vista?

  143. O and Mushu, the people who buy windows are people who don’t know math. becuase Macs are cheaper OVER ALL but some people are too lazy to do the math or are too stupid.

  144. O and Mushu, the people who buy windows are people who don’t know math. becuase Macs are cheaper OVER ALL but some people are too lazy to do the math or are too stupid.

  145. Been usising apple since 1983…. By the way, I believe the first “PERSONAL” computer was a MAC! Never had to run AV… NEVER!

    A bit of price tag, but worth it!!!!!

  146. Been usising apple since 1983…. By the way, I believe the first “PERSONAL” computer was a MAC! Never had to run AV… NEVER!

    A bit of price tag, but worth it!!!!!

  147. As a web designer for 4 years and using both platforms, I’ve been the only designer at my firm yet to be swayed to MAC. I can’t get over how much slower the mac was (dual-core g5) was compared to my dell desktop (2 yrs old). I mean theres always more factors, but for web design, the PC was always faster in photoshop (by a huge margin) and not to mention the MAC is just pathetic in the flash authoring env., straight up pathetic. Either way… As much as im not a fan of MS, i still find myself alot happier on a pc. You just have to know what your doing kinda

  148. As a web designer for 4 years and using both platforms, I’ve been the only designer at my firm yet to be swayed to MAC. I can’t get over how much slower the mac was (dual-core g5) was compared to my dell desktop (2 yrs old). I mean theres always more factors, but for web design, the PC was always faster in photoshop (by a huge margin) and not to mention the MAC is just pathetic in the flash authoring env., straight up pathetic. Either way… As much as im not a fan of MS, i still find myself alot happier on a pc. You just have to know what your doing kinda

  149. Also, keep in mind that when people say ‘most businesses’ prefer Windows, it should be understood that corporate America does not now, nor ever did care which OS was better, they simply believed that ‘it needs to be IBM compatible’ (without ever knowing why or what exactly that meant), as the computer salesman told them. ‘Compatibility’ is a myth that mass market retailers have used to not stock Mac versions of software packages, most of which, other than the totally useless, bug-filled crap of the type on WalMart shelves for 10 bucks, are readily available at online retailers for either platform. There is nothing that I can do on a PC that I cannot do as well or better on my Mac, including (mainstream) games. If more software companies were like Blizzard, providing both Mac and PC versions on the same disc, the platform war would be a non-issue.

  150. Also, keep in mind that when people say ‘most businesses’ prefer Windows, it should be understood that corporate America does not now, nor ever did care which OS was better, they simply believed that ‘it needs to be IBM compatible’ (without ever knowing why or what exactly that meant), as the computer salesman told them. ‘Compatibility’ is a myth that mass market retailers have used to not stock Mac versions of software packages, most of which, other than the totally useless, bug-filled crap of the type on WalMart shelves for 10 bucks, are readily available at online retailers for either platform. There is nothing that I can do on a PC that I cannot do as well or better on my Mac, including (mainstream) games. If more software companies were like Blizzard, providing both Mac and PC versions on the same disc, the platform war would be a non-issue.

  151. One more thing. If you want 2 mouse buttons, GET A 2-BUTTON MOUSE AND PLUG IT IN. I did, too, it is better than control-click. It even scrolls, no drivers required. That’s all it takes. Quit using that non-excuse as a plus for PC’s, you are out of touch with what a Mac can do.

  152. One more thing. If you want 2 mouse buttons, GET A 2-BUTTON MOUSE AND PLUG IT IN. I did, too, it is better than control-click. It even scrolls, no drivers required. That’s all it takes. Quit using that non-excuse as a plus for PC’s, you are out of touch with what a Mac can do.

  153. I can’t stand microsoft products anymore.. In my opinion Microsoft Office is the only thing that they did well..
    I got impressed by the new mac os x Leopard…And thats why I moved to apple’s OS..
    You should do what this mac ad says: give up on vista!
    weshow.com/us/p/24256/apples_ad_dont_give_up_on_vista
    Apple FTW!

  154. I can’t stand microsoft products anymore.. In my opinion Microsoft Office is the only thing that they did well..
    I got impressed by the new mac os x Leopard…And thats why I moved to apple’s OS..
    You should do what this mac ad says: give up on vista!
    weshow.com/us/p/24256/apples_ad_dont_give_up_on_vista
    Apple FTW!

  155. As I like to say: software is always a work in progress because it’s never really done. Instead, software continually delivers different levels of user satisfaction to different users. It’s up to the software maker to continually make the right decisions. Hopefully, Microsoft will continue to re-focus on: the end-user, quality, performance, reliability and usability. If they don’t… I’m increasingly becoming enamored with Mac OS-X.

    Pingback: http://dataland.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/vista-usability-drivers/

  156. As I like to say: software is always a work in progress because it’s never really done. Instead, software continually delivers different levels of user satisfaction to different users. It’s up to the software maker to continually make the right decisions. Hopefully, Microsoft will continue to re-focus on: the end-user, quality, performance, reliability and usability. If they don’t… I’m increasingly becoming enamored with Mac OS-X.

    Pingback: http://dataland.wordpress.com/2007/12/10/vista-usability-drivers/