Vista on a Mac? Not easy

Patrick Scoble: “Trying to load Vista on a Mac gave me a headache.”

He was working on it for the past few hours. BootCamp worked great. Installing Vista? Worked great.

The problem?

Tons of drivers don’t work. He couldn’t get it to connect to the Internet. And all sorts of things that Mac users take for granted with OSX (camera, lighted keyboard, being two) don’t work because he couldn’t find drivers for them.

This is with the shipping version of Windows Vista.

Anyone else try to install Vista on a MacBookPro?

Comments

  1. The drivers that Apple provides with Boot Camp are developed for Windows XP, aren’t they?

    My guess is that after Windows Vista is released for consumers on January 29th Apple will provide the new, relevant drivers — but obviously that is up to them.

  2. The drivers that Apple provides with Boot Camp are developed for Windows XP, aren’t they?

    My guess is that after Windows Vista is released for consumers on January 29th Apple will provide the new, relevant drivers — but obviously that is up to them.

  3. vista can be installed on Mac? i never know about it.
    there’re not much support & knowledge about Mac in KL.
    its not popular..but i like apple very much & would love to know more…

  4. vista can be installed on Mac? i never know about it.
    there’re not much support & knowledge about Mac in KL.
    its not popular..but i like apple very much & would love to know more…

  5. This week I installed Vista on my Macbook. It’s possible to extract drivers from Apple’s driver CD, but they’re still XP-drivers. So sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. I’ve got the trackpad (double finger scroll) working, which is the most important thing. Screen drivers worked out of the box, as did sound and Wi-fi. Sleep/wake-up works, but after wake up no more mouse – bummer!

    I’m kinda counting on new drivers from Apple in the coming weeks.

    Hans

  6. This week I installed Vista on my Macbook. It’s possible to extract drivers from Apple’s driver CD, but they’re still XP-drivers. So sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. I’ve got the trackpad (double finger scroll) working, which is the most important thing. Screen drivers worked out of the box, as did sound and Wi-fi. Sleep/wake-up works, but after wake up no more mouse – bummer!

    I’m kinda counting on new drivers from Apple in the coming weeks.

    Hans

  7. You can try with Parallels: the drivers are Xp-compatibility. I write a post on my blog to search someone that has already installed Vista on Mac and i send you a suggest.

  8. You can try with Parallels: the drivers are Xp-compatibility. I write a post on my blog to search someone that has already installed Vista on Mac and i send you a suggest.

  9. That’s weird, I installed RC1 on a CD Macbook Pro, and other than the camera and trackpad scrolling, everything worked fine. WiFi, bluetooth, sleep, graphics, etc. The isight, keyboard and trackpad are all Apple hardware, either developed in-house or under exclusive contract, so there won’t be any drivers in the wild unless they’re from Apple or reverse-engineered.

  10. That’s weird, I installed RC1 on a CD Macbook Pro, and other than the camera and trackpad scrolling, everything worked fine. WiFi, bluetooth, sleep, graphics, etc. The isight, keyboard and trackpad are all Apple hardware, either developed in-house or under exclusive contract, so there won’t be any drivers in the wild unless they’re from Apple or reverse-engineered.

  11. “This is with the shipping version of Windows Vista.”

    – somehow, this is all Microsoft’s fault.

    I can see the headline on Digg – “Vista doesn’t ship with drivers for the Mac. Kid Scoble is angry… Papa Scoble blames Microsoft!!!”

  12. “This is with the shipping version of Windows Vista.”

    – somehow, this is all Microsoft’s fault.

    I can see the headline on Digg – “Vista doesn’t ship with drivers for the Mac. Kid Scoble is angry… Papa Scoble blames Microsoft!!!”

  13. Well I’ve just bought a Macbook Pro after 14 years in PC-land. It’s a bit different to my LCIII!

    Just figuring out how to do stuff I used to do on my Dell laptop but I’m very impressed with it so far.

    I’ve been thinking about how best to install Windows – can you install Vista via Bootcamp and then have Parallels use that installation – thus avoiding installing Vista twice?

    I probably want to use it in both Bootcamp and Parallels mode for a while to work out which is best for me.

  14. Well I’ve just bought a Macbook Pro after 14 years in PC-land. It’s a bit different to my LCIII!

    Just figuring out how to do stuff I used to do on my Dell laptop but I’m very impressed with it so far.

    I’ve been thinking about how best to install Windows – can you install Vista via Bootcamp and then have Parallels use that installation – thus avoiding installing Vista twice?

    I probably want to use it in both Bootcamp and Parallels mode for a while to work out which is best for me.

  15. Apple BootCamp is still in beta and hopefully they will add the missing drivers for bluetooth, isight, trackpad, backlit keyboard.

    Risotto has pretty good instructions on doing a step by step install.

  16. Apple BootCamp is still in beta and hopefully they will add the missing drivers for bluetooth, isight, trackpad, backlit keyboard.

    Risotto has pretty good instructions on doing a step by step install.

  17. I suspect that given the correct setting, we could turn Patrick into a raving “free/open/libre” software proponent. Get ‘em young and indoctrinate… :)

  18. I suspect that given the correct setting, we could turn Patrick into a raving “free/open/libre” software proponent. Get ‘em young and indoctrinate… :)

  19. I’ve been using RC1 with Parallels and it works OK, although it’s painfully slow. I don’t like boot camp since I don’t want to have to reboot to run windows.

  20. I’ve been using RC1 with Parallels and it works OK, although it’s painfully slow. I don’t like boot camp since I don’t want to have to reboot to run windows.

  21. @16

    Ubuntu ships free CDs with Ubuntu Linux. It supports everything I have out of the box. No issues. No driver hunts, and I have top-notch, brand-new hardware. Wireless works, printer installed in 2 clicks.

    Most importantly: I keep my freedom and my wallet.

  22. @16

    Ubuntu ships free CDs with Ubuntu Linux. It supports everything I have out of the box. No issues. No driver hunts, and I have top-notch, brand-new hardware. Wireless works, printer installed in 2 clicks.

    Most importantly: I keep my freedom and my wallet.

  23. It’s really not Microsoft’s responosibility to create drivers for every piece of hardware. I remember similar complaints when XP came out.

    Microsoft usually includes drivers to handle most of your basic peripherals. I don’t think the lighted keyboard on a MacBook is really a common device that Windows will have to handle. I’d also say that most mics likely use the mic jack rather than a USB port.

  24. It’s really not Microsoft’s responosibility to create drivers for every piece of hardware. I remember similar complaints when XP came out.

    Microsoft usually includes drivers to handle most of your basic peripherals. I don’t think the lighted keyboard on a MacBook is really a common device that Windows will have to handle. I’d also say that most mics likely use the mic jack rather than a USB port.

  25. Ian: I agree with you, but a LOT of people will be trying to install Vista on a Mac. Which is why I brought up the troubles. I can’t even get the MacBookPro’s wifi capabilities to work (on the 17-inch model).

  26. Ian: I agree with you, but a LOT of people will be trying to install Vista on a Mac. Which is why I brought up the troubles. I can’t even get the MacBookPro’s wifi capabilities to work (on the 17-inch model).

  27. There are driver issues on PC’s as well. These things get resolved over time. With Apple, I suspect they’ll be fixed pretty quickly.

  28. There are driver issues on PC’s as well. These things get resolved over time. With Apple, I suspect they’ll be fixed pretty quickly.

  29. Why would anyone want to install that garbage on a Mac. It’s slow, it’s ugly, and runs like shit like every other Microgarbage product!

  30. Why would anyone want to install that garbage on a Mac. It’s slow, it’s ugly, and runs like shit like every other Microgarbage product!

  31. I’ve been running Vista RTM on a Mac Pro (not MacBook Pro) since mid-December via BootCamp and it has been great. I have a few minor problems with some drivers which I am quite sure will be fixed as Vista is released and more drivers become available. But I know plenty of people are running Vista on their MacBook Pros, because I do regular searches to keep an eye out for new info on drivers and invariably the MacBook info comes up instead of the desktop info. Also, Microsoft was doing demos of Vista on MacBooks at one point, so I’m sure any issues will be quickly addressed. (I didn’t do the install myself, so I can’t say how hard it was, but I do know that it was done in a few hours, which I was pretty surprised at. I thought it would take us a few days to get it working.)

  32. I’ve been running Vista RTM on a Mac Pro (not MacBook Pro) since mid-December via BootCamp and it has been great. I have a few minor problems with some drivers which I am quite sure will be fixed as Vista is released and more drivers become available. But I know plenty of people are running Vista on their MacBook Pros, because I do regular searches to keep an eye out for new info on drivers and invariably the MacBook info comes up instead of the desktop info. Also, Microsoft was doing demos of Vista on MacBooks at one point, so I’m sure any issues will be quickly addressed. (I didn’t do the install myself, so I can’t say how hard it was, but I do know that it was done in a few hours, which I was pretty surprised at. I thought it would take us a few days to get it working.)

  33. The important question is does Supreme Commander run on it. Come on, Everyone know Windows is for Games. It’s the only reason I’ll be running it. And hey Windows Fans get another talking point. Windows market share could reach 100%. Microsoft keep up the excellent Direct X work.

  34. The important question is does Supreme Commander run on it. Come on, Everyone know Windows is for Games. It’s the only reason I’ll be running it. And hey Windows Fans get another talking point. Windows market share could reach 100%. Microsoft keep up the excellent Direct X work.

  35. Apple is the only OEM that doesn’t design hardware/computers with Windows in mind, as such, while there are plenty of off the shelf components in Intel Macs there are some oddball parts that require specific drivers. Since Apple is sort of busy working on Leopard, they haven’t been able to finish drivers for Microsoft’s latest boondoggle.

    While I question the idea of anyone providing a ‘top-knotch’ Windows experience, Apple isn’t the place to look. Bootcamp is a beta product, and until very recently, so was Vista.

  36. Apple is the only OEM that doesn’t design hardware/computers with Windows in mind, as such, while there are plenty of off the shelf components in Intel Macs there are some oddball parts that require specific drivers. Since Apple is sort of busy working on Leopard, they haven’t been able to finish drivers for Microsoft’s latest boondoggle.

    While I question the idea of anyone providing a ‘top-knotch’ Windows experience, Apple isn’t the place to look. Bootcamp is a beta product, and until very recently, so was Vista.

  37. Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them. That is not the case, unfortunately. Vista would look badass on a Mac.

  38. Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them. That is not the case, unfortunately. Vista would look badass on a Mac.

  39. I think you guys should probably stick to just crapping up acer ferrari’s or thinkpads or whatever… what would possess you to get a nice new mac and then go installing that train wreck of an OS on it is beyond me.

  40. I think you guys should probably stick to just crapping up acer ferrari’s or thinkpads or whatever… what would possess you to get a nice new mac and then go installing that train wreck of an OS on it is beyond me.

  41. Mart: it’s pretty obvious you’ve never used Vista. It does a lot of things that Macs don’t, particularly on corporate networks with apps built for Windows. There’s a reason Macs only have 6% marketshare and your attitude here is a BIG reason why.

  42. Mart: it’s pretty obvious you’ve never used Vista. It does a lot of things that Macs don’t, particularly on corporate networks with apps built for Windows. There’s a reason Macs only have 6% marketshare and your attitude here is a BIG reason why.

  43. Avonelle: is there a secret to getting Wifi working on a MacBookPro? My son has tried on both his 15-inch and my 17-inch and we can’t get it to work. I’m sure there’s a driver somewhere. Off to search…

  44. Avonelle: is there a secret to getting Wifi working on a MacBookPro? My son has tried on both his 15-inch and my 17-inch and we can’t get it to work. I’m sure there’s a driver somewhere. Off to search…

  45. Robert, unfortunately I can’t answer your question about the wifi – I didn’t order my Mac Pro with the wi-fi option, as I don’t expect to be lugging its beautiful case around much, so its wired connection will be just fine for me. You might try the Bootcamp forum on the insanelymac.com site – there has been some good Vista info there.

  46. Robert, unfortunately I can’t answer your question about the wifi – I didn’t order my Mac Pro with the wi-fi option, as I don’t expect to be lugging its beautiful case around much, so its wired connection will be just fine for me. You might try the Bootcamp forum on the insanelymac.com site – there has been some good Vista info there.

  47. The fact that Vista is shipping a little shy on working drivers shouldn’t be news to anyone. Nvidia still hasn’t released final drivers even though Vista has been shipped for business use for quite some time now.

    Bad journalists complain about the problem. Good journalists post sites to download as many drivers as are currently available.

  48. The fact that Vista is shipping a little shy on working drivers shouldn’t be news to anyone. Nvidia still hasn’t released final drivers even though Vista has been shipped for business use for quite some time now.

    Bad journalists complain about the problem. Good journalists post sites to download as many drivers as are currently available.

  49. I wouldn’t load Vista on my cigarette lighter, even if you gave me a $5 dollar Paraguayan pirate copy — which are already showing up here in Brazil. I’m a Linux man now. For life.

  50. I wouldn’t load Vista on my cigarette lighter, even if you gave me a $5 dollar Paraguayan pirate copy — which are already showing up here in Brazil. I’m a Linux man now. For life.

  51. @35 Colin:

    Indeed. Me as well. I went to Linux for good a long time ago and I have not missed anything. In fact, I save money on the ridiculously priced OSes, stupid and evil license schemes, NO spyware, NO anti-virus needed.

    I have NO DRM on my computer. Full stop. Freedom. It’s a great thing.

  52. @35 Colin:

    Indeed. Me as well. I went to Linux for good a long time ago and I have not missed anything. In fact, I save money on the ridiculously priced OSes, stupid and evil license schemes, NO spyware, NO anti-virus needed.

    I have NO DRM on my computer. Full stop. Freedom. It’s a great thing.

  53. @27 “Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them.”

    Really? What quantifiable data do you have to support that contention? Or is this just another one of your opinions based on random, anecdotal observations of your sheltered world?

  54. @27 “Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them.”

    Really? What quantifiable data do you have to support that contention? Or is this just another one of your opinions based on random, anecdotal observations of your sheltered world?

  55. Robert,

    You are a moron. Vista hasn’t officially launched yet for consumers. Apple deserves until Monday before you start complaining that Bootcamp doesn’t fully support Vista.

    Just because you and your son got early copies doesn’t give you the right to expect Apple to support the two of you before the official consumer launch.

  56. Robert,

    You are a moron. Vista hasn’t officially launched yet for consumers. Apple deserves until Monday before you start complaining that Bootcamp doesn’t fully support Vista.

    Just because you and your son got early copies doesn’t give you the right to expect Apple to support the two of you before the official consumer launch.

  57. Try extracting the Windows XP drivers from the Windows driver disk Bootcamp creates for you. To do this, run the ‘install mac drivers’ program with the /A /v switches. Assuming your drivers installer is on a CD and at the root of your d drive it would be: “D:Install Macintosh Drivers for Windows XP.exe” /A /v

    Once you have the drivers extracted, you can manually install them yourself.

  58. Try extracting the Windows XP drivers from the Windows driver disk Bootcamp creates for you. To do this, run the ‘install mac drivers’ program with the /A /v switches. Assuming your drivers installer is on a CD and at the root of your d drive it would be: “D:Install Macintosh Drivers for Windows XP.exe” /A /v

    Once you have the drivers extracted, you can manually install them yourself.

  59. I was at the Assistive Technology Industry Association conference in Orlando this week with a guy who ran a lab session running around 10 Macbooks loaded with Vista. The session was called something like “Mac and Windows Together! Discover: Universal computer access” The guy was from a company in Canada that produces an assistive technology product called “Discover”. We had internet access in the lab and I dont remember any cables, so I am sure he had Wi-Fi working. And he told me it only took a little over an hour to get the Vista side of the system working, including the install time. (which is about an hour)

    -dan

  60. I was at the Assistive Technology Industry Association conference in Orlando this week with a guy who ran a lab session running around 10 Macbooks loaded with Vista. The session was called something like “Mac and Windows Together! Discover: Universal computer access” The guy was from a company in Canada that produces an assistive technology product called “Discover”. We had internet access in the lab and I dont remember any cables, so I am sure he had Wi-Fi working. And he told me it only took a little over an hour to get the Vista side of the system working, including the install time. (which is about an hour)

    -dan

  61. “Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them. That is not the case, unfortunately. Vista would look badass on a Mac.”

    You can easily run Windows on a Mac. Just not Vista. But that’s why BootCamp says it only supports XP with SP2. I’m sure Vista support will come when BootCamp comes out of beta. Or maybe sooner, stays in beta a while longer, and supports Vista.

    Although, latest reports suggest that if you want a Mac to just run Windows (pre-Leopard) you’ll need to pay $29.99 for BootCamp.

  62. “Bob, true, but a lot of people are buying new Macs thinking that they’ll be able to easily run Windows on them. That is not the case, unfortunately. Vista would look badass on a Mac.”

    You can easily run Windows on a Mac. Just not Vista. But that’s why BootCamp says it only supports XP with SP2. I’m sure Vista support will come when BootCamp comes out of beta. Or maybe sooner, stays in beta a while longer, and supports Vista.

    Although, latest reports suggest that if you want a Mac to just run Windows (pre-Leopard) you’ll need to pay $29.99 for BootCamp.

  63. Like any new OS it’s generally a good idea to hold off on installing until it’s bedded down properly, and even with it’s beta period it won’t do any harm to wait a while longer for Vista to mature.

    As far as games go, XP is still the best choice and will be for some time to come. DX10 titles are still vaporware and lots of reports of Vistas less than impressive performance with games are worth keeping in mind.

    DRM and actual value questions aside, there will be large uptake of the OS and support will be forthcoming. Lets wait for the product to be released to market and actually have some time on the ground before yelling and screaming.

  64. Like any new OS it’s generally a good idea to hold off on installing until it’s bedded down properly, and even with it’s beta period it won’t do any harm to wait a while longer for Vista to mature.

    As far as games go, XP is still the best choice and will be for some time to come. DX10 titles are still vaporware and lots of reports of Vistas less than impressive performance with games are worth keeping in mind.

    DRM and actual value questions aside, there will be large uptake of the OS and support will be forthcoming. Lets wait for the product to be released to market and actually have some time on the ground before yelling and screaming.

  65. Robert, if Apple loves its customers then Apple should provide an option of Macs preloaded with Vista. There are at least two benefits for customers.

    1. Hassle free availability of Vista to customers.
    2. Customers need not pay the price of boxed copy of Vista. Instead Apple could sign up as an OEM and charge its customers OEM price of Vista.

    If Steve Jobs does not see the benefit of providing preloaded Vista on Macs, then it could be a great opportunity for some system builders to provide preloaded Vista on Macs. It will slightly expensive for customers but at least it will save them the hassles.

  66. Robert, if Apple loves its customers then Apple should provide an option of Macs preloaded with Vista. There are at least two benefits for customers.

    1. Hassle free availability of Vista to customers.
    2. Customers need not pay the price of boxed copy of Vista. Instead Apple could sign up as an OEM and charge its customers OEM price of Vista.

    If Steve Jobs does not see the benefit of providing preloaded Vista on Macs, then it could be a great opportunity for some system builders to provide preloaded Vista on Macs. It will slightly expensive for customers but at least it will save them the hassles.

  67. Just to continue my previous comment. Steve Jobs could also preload his favorite software on Vista portion of Mac too. For an example he could preload his iTunes, Quicktime etc and if he gets bounty from Google/Yahoo then he could preload those two.

    Further he gets to understand his PC competetitors such as Dell/Lenova etc a little better.

  68. Just to continue my previous comment. Steve Jobs could also preload his favorite software on Vista portion of Mac too. For an example he could preload his iTunes, Quicktime etc and if he gets bounty from Google/Yahoo then he could preload those two.

    Further he gets to understand his PC competetitors such as Dell/Lenova etc a little better.

  69. Why can’t people just choose a platform and keep it simple.

    Here are your choices:

    1. Linux
    2. Windows
    3. Mac

    Occam’s Razor applies here… keep it simple, folks. Choose one and get on with it.

    A lot of people are going to buy into Vista for the supposed eye candy, which in all reality is not all that good. KDE under Linux with a few tweaks makes puts both Mac OS X and Vista to shame in a major way.

    Ask yourself this…

    What could I do with a few hundred dollars rather than blow it on an OS that has draconian licenses and offers me no freedom.

    How about some Linux articles, Robert? Surely you’re not one of those uber capitalists that think Linux is a cancer and the GPL should have been killed at birth?

  70. Why can’t people just choose a platform and keep it simple.

    Here are your choices:

    1. Linux
    2. Windows
    3. Mac

    Occam’s Razor applies here… keep it simple, folks. Choose one and get on with it.

    A lot of people are going to buy into Vista for the supposed eye candy, which in all reality is not all that good. KDE under Linux with a few tweaks makes puts both Mac OS X and Vista to shame in a major way.

    Ask yourself this…

    What could I do with a few hundred dollars rather than blow it on an OS that has draconian licenses and offers me no freedom.

    How about some Linux articles, Robert? Surely you’re not one of those uber capitalists that think Linux is a cancer and the GPL should have been killed at birth?

  71. Kamal: Robert, if Apple loves its customers then Apple should provide an option of Macs preloaded with Vista.

    Apple does love its customers. That’s why they /don’t/ offer Vista pre-loaded on their machines. :)

  72. Kamal: Robert, if Apple loves its customers then Apple should provide an option of Macs preloaded with Vista.

    Apple does love its customers. That’s why they /don’t/ offer Vista pre-loaded on their machines. :)

  73. Diego, this option is for those people who wants both OSX and Vista on their Macs. You are saying that it is better for these customers to buy a boxed copy and go through the hassle of installation Vista on Mac *than* simply buying a Vista pre-loaded Mac?

    I do not see your logic.

  74. Diego, this option is for those people who wants both OSX and Vista on their Macs. You are saying that it is better for these customers to buy a boxed copy and go through the hassle of installation Vista on Mac *than* simply buying a Vista pre-loaded Mac?

    I do not see your logic.

  75. I am one those anecdotes, a person who bought a 17” MacBook Pro because I “knew” I could load Vista once Microsoft finally released it.

    I figure I will need to get Vista to run natively in order to use AutoCAD, but I was hoping to also run the same copy of Vista under Parallels (Entourage is no Outlook). Anyone care to tell me just how wrong I am?

  76. I am one those anecdotes, a person who bought a 17” MacBook Pro because I “knew” I could load Vista once Microsoft finally released it.

    I figure I will need to get Vista to run natively in order to use AutoCAD, but I was hoping to also run the same copy of Vista under Parallels (Entourage is no Outlook). Anyone care to tell me just how wrong I am?

  77. Kamal:

    Diego, this option is for those people who wants both OSX and Vista on their Macs. You are saying that it is better for these customers to buy a boxed copy and go through the hassle of installation Vista on Mac *than* simply buying a Vista pre-loaded Mac?

    Even though it may sell more hardware for Apple. OS X is their operating system and I just don’t see them making it anymore easier than they need to for people to just buy a Mac to only run Vista on it.

  78. Kamal:

    Diego, this option is for those people who wants both OSX and Vista on their Macs. You are saying that it is better for these customers to buy a boxed copy and go through the hassle of installation Vista on Mac *than* simply buying a Vista pre-loaded Mac?

    Even though it may sell more hardware for Apple. OS X is their operating system and I just don’t see them making it anymore easier than they need to for people to just buy a Mac to only run Vista on it.

  79. I have a dual core 1.25 GB Mac Mini that runs Vista under both Parallels and Bootcamp. I vastly prefer Bootcamp (and truly regret paying for Parallels, FWIW). Vista with Bootcamp more or less Just Works (upgraded from an XP installation). Of course being a Mini, it has a generic keyboard, no camera, etc. so I’m sure that won’t help your situation Robert. Parallels runs Vista much slower, I can’t get the nice Vista video effects working, I couldn’t get the various sleep modes of OS X and Vista to play nicely together, and that’s when I just went back to dual booting (which doesn’t take much longer than starting a VM running Vista). Maybe I need more memory or more patience, who knows.

    As for why bother booting Vista (except to run Outlook)? … for me, there’s about as much significant difference as there is between the “user interfaces” of my Toyota and my Subaru. You can switch back and forth quickly and don’t think much about the differences. When I had XP running on the Mini, there was some sort of intangibly nicer look and feel with OS X that caused me to use it for normal browsing / personal email, and I just booted Windows to use Outlook. Once Vista was running, I get a similar (maybe not as good, but not enough to care) intangible feeling of graphical goodness and I seldom bother with OS X anymore. Flame away at my cluelessness (yes I work at MS), but don’t expect Joe and Jill Public to get any more excited about the Vista / OS X differences than they do about radio, heater, and wiper controls on their car.

    It will be interesting to see if Apple supports Vista in future Bootcamp betas or Leopard. I guess they’re agonizing — on one hand they really make much better designed (if not manufactured!) hardware than the PC vendors, and can get a premium price for it. Obviously the move to Intel has increased their market share significantly, presumably because people can run Windows, either by default or when the pointy haired boss makes them. Do they continue to capitalize on that but continue to sneer at the terminally unhip people who would actually use this capability? (the Bootcamp documentation is a textbook example of Apple’s arrogance and blithe assumption that security isn’t a problem for them). Or will they do what a lot of their customers want and actually support Windows like the other hardware manufacturers do? I assume they will do the very bare minimum required to tell the Windows on Mac story and keep people buying Intel Macs, but not enough to make it easy to un-switch, or switch back and forth.

  80. I have a dual core 1.25 GB Mac Mini that runs Vista under both Parallels and Bootcamp. I vastly prefer Bootcamp (and truly regret paying for Parallels, FWIW). Vista with Bootcamp more or less Just Works (upgraded from an XP installation). Of course being a Mini, it has a generic keyboard, no camera, etc. so I’m sure that won’t help your situation Robert. Parallels runs Vista much slower, I can’t get the nice Vista video effects working, I couldn’t get the various sleep modes of OS X and Vista to play nicely together, and that’s when I just went back to dual booting (which doesn’t take much longer than starting a VM running Vista). Maybe I need more memory or more patience, who knows.

    As for why bother booting Vista (except to run Outlook)? … for me, there’s about as much significant difference as there is between the “user interfaces” of my Toyota and my Subaru. You can switch back and forth quickly and don’t think much about the differences. When I had XP running on the Mini, there was some sort of intangibly nicer look and feel with OS X that caused me to use it for normal browsing / personal email, and I just booted Windows to use Outlook. Once Vista was running, I get a similar (maybe not as good, but not enough to care) intangible feeling of graphical goodness and I seldom bother with OS X anymore. Flame away at my cluelessness (yes I work at MS), but don’t expect Joe and Jill Public to get any more excited about the Vista / OS X differences than they do about radio, heater, and wiper controls on their car.

    It will be interesting to see if Apple supports Vista in future Bootcamp betas or Leopard. I guess they’re agonizing — on one hand they really make much better designed (if not manufactured!) hardware than the PC vendors, and can get a premium price for it. Obviously the move to Intel has increased their market share significantly, presumably because people can run Windows, either by default or when the pointy haired boss makes them. Do they continue to capitalize on that but continue to sneer at the terminally unhip people who would actually use this capability? (the Bootcamp documentation is a textbook example of Apple’s arrogance and blithe assumption that security isn’t a problem for them). Or will they do what a lot of their customers want and actually support Windows like the other hardware manufacturers do? I assume they will do the very bare minimum required to tell the Windows on Mac story and keep people buying Intel Macs, but not enough to make it easy to un-switch, or switch back and forth.

  81. Diego, if they are selling more Macs by releasing bootcamp then they can sell even more Macs if they sell Vista pre-installed Macs for a small premium.

    I still do not see your logic why a half hearted solution like a bootcamp is preferrable to a full solution of selling Macs with Vista preinstalled? All you are saying is that bootcamp is good enough why spend more effort on pre-installing Vista? First you can’t make a company as big as Apple by just good enough solutions. Second, the effort is not much extra vs the extra profit on marking up Vista. And of course higher market share of Macs too.

  82. Diego, if they are selling more Macs by releasing bootcamp then they can sell even more Macs if they sell Vista pre-installed Macs for a small premium.

    I still do not see your logic why a half hearted solution like a bootcamp is preferrable to a full solution of selling Macs with Vista preinstalled? All you are saying is that bootcamp is good enough why spend more effort on pre-installing Vista? First you can’t make a company as big as Apple by just good enough solutions. Second, the effort is not much extra vs the extra profit on marking up Vista. And of course higher market share of Macs too.

  83. When Apple releases BootCamp out of beta, would you pay $30 for the final version. If it support Vista? Let the teeth-gnashing begin!!!

  84. When Apple releases BootCamp out of beta, would you pay $30 for the final version. If it support Vista? Let the teeth-gnashing begin!!!

  85. This blog subject is premature and mischievous. Vista hasn’t even been released to the general public yet. Boot Camp is intended only to load XP which it does flawlessly.

    When Apple releases their new OS, Leopard, in a few weeks time it will incorporate Boot Camp which will be Vista compatible. Until then if people want Windows on a Mac, use XP.

    By the way, Vista is too cheap anyway as explained here:
    http://fifthdecade.wordpress.com/2007/01/28/vista-is-too-cheap/

  86. This blog subject is premature and mischievous. Vista hasn’t even been released to the general public yet. Boot Camp is intended only to load XP which it does flawlessly.

    When Apple releases their new OS, Leopard, in a few weeks time it will incorporate Boot Camp which will be Vista compatible. Until then if people want Windows on a Mac, use XP.

    By the way, Vista is too cheap anyway as explained here:
    http://fifthdecade.wordpress.com/2007/01/28/vista-is-too-cheap/

  87. Robert, I’ve got Windows Vista Ultimate running just great on a MacBook. As for drivers, the best thing to do is launch the Apple driver installer on a DIFFERENT Windows machine and, while it’s sitting there waiting for you to tell it ‘Next’ COPY the uncompressed drivers it unpacks to the local HDD to a USB stick which you use while MANUALLY installing them using Device Manager in Windows Vista on the Mac. (Once the Apple installer is finished it deletes these files.)

    Just a tip I’ve found to be helpful while installing those drivers.

  88. Robert, I’ve got Windows Vista Ultimate running just great on a MacBook. As for drivers, the best thing to do is launch the Apple driver installer on a DIFFERENT Windows machine and, while it’s sitting there waiting for you to tell it ‘Next’ COPY the uncompressed drivers it unpacks to the local HDD to a USB stick which you use while MANUALLY installing them using Device Manager in Windows Vista on the Mac. (Once the Apple installer is finished it deletes these files.)

    Just a tip I’ve found to be helpful while installing those drivers.

  89. Kamal Jain,
    Only Apple makes Macs; there are no system builders in the Apple world. Including Vista on the Mac would also increase Apple’s cost and our cost since they would have to pay Microsoft. Furthermore, the majority of Mac users don’t need XP or Vista. Their machines come with everything they need by default from Apple. This is because Apple mostly targets consumers for home use. That’s because Microsoft has the business/enterprise space cornered. As they did with the iPod, Apple is targetting a different market segment than Dell, HP or Gateway, the consumer, and they are doing quite well at it.

  90. Kamal Jain,
    Only Apple makes Macs; there are no system builders in the Apple world. Including Vista on the Mac would also increase Apple’s cost and our cost since they would have to pay Microsoft. Furthermore, the majority of Mac users don’t need XP or Vista. Their machines come with everything they need by default from Apple. This is because Apple mostly targets consumers for home use. That’s because Microsoft has the business/enterprise space cornered. As they did with the iPod, Apple is targetting a different market segment than Dell, HP or Gateway, the consumer, and they are doing quite well at it.

  91. Robert@58:

    You put a very good point! But IMHO, conclusion was wrong.

    First, by working on bootcamp Apple shows that it wants to raise the scope of Mac from Mac fanatics to Windows lovers too. There is in fact a whole market campaign around Mac running Windows!

    Second, Apple loves to provide out-of-the-box experience, as you also implied. Why then lose bootcamp users out in the cold? It is expensive as well as a lot of hassles for Mac users of bootcamp. Bootcamp customers are Apple customers and if Apple wants to take full advantage of it, then it should try to make it convenient for users and more profitable for itself.

    Third, wunning Vista side by side does not make Mac less useful for those who wants to run OSX only. So without hurting the experience of one set of consumers, Apple can raise the experience of another set.

    Fourth, there is no Mac system builders. True. But there are PC systems builders. They get Windows at OEM price. They can buy Mac from Apple at volume discount. Install Windows on Mac and sell it back. I believe this is a great opportunity for system builders to expland their business.

  92. Robert@58:

    You put a very good point! But IMHO, conclusion was wrong.

    First, by working on bootcamp Apple shows that it wants to raise the scope of Mac from Mac fanatics to Windows lovers too. There is in fact a whole market campaign around Mac running Windows!

    Second, Apple loves to provide out-of-the-box experience, as you also implied. Why then lose bootcamp users out in the cold? It is expensive as well as a lot of hassles for Mac users of bootcamp. Bootcamp customers are Apple customers and if Apple wants to take full advantage of it, then it should try to make it convenient for users and more profitable for itself.

    Third, wunning Vista side by side does not make Mac less useful for those who wants to run OSX only. So without hurting the experience of one set of consumers, Apple can raise the experience of another set.

    Fourth, there is no Mac system builders. True. But there are PC systems builders. They get Windows at OEM price. They can buy Mac from Apple at volume discount. Install Windows on Mac and sell it back. I believe this is a great opportunity for system builders to expland their business.

  93. If Apple preloads Vista, it has to SUPPORT Vista.

    Let’s see here:

    Load and support their biggest competitor, while not really making a damned dime off of it.

    That’s what a business person would call “stupid”.

  94. If Apple preloads Vista, it has to SUPPORT Vista.

    Let’s see here:

    Load and support their biggest competitor, while not really making a damned dime off of it.

    That’s what a business person would call “stupid”.

  95. John@60:

    Of course, I am not a business person. I am just a researcher in MSR.

    My first comment starts from the phrase “if Apple loves its customers”. If Apple loves its customers than it is its business people job to find a way to make consumers happier while making profit for the company. Preinstalled Vista is a better option for consumers than bootcamp. Period. Who said Apple can’t make a dime. They can add a mark-up in providing this option. They can make money adding applications like Google Toolbar on Windows portion too.

    As for the support, we (i.e., Microsoft) support applications on Apple, for an example we have a whole Mac Business Unit for porting Windows Apps to OSX. Diversity of available applications is a big plus of Windows over OSX and we do not mind extending this advantage to OSX. This is all in the spirit of loving customers while making money.

  96. John@60:

    Of course, I am not a business person. I am just a researcher in MSR.

    My first comment starts from the phrase “if Apple loves its customers”. If Apple loves its customers than it is its business people job to find a way to make consumers happier while making profit for the company. Preinstalled Vista is a better option for consumers than bootcamp. Period. Who said Apple can’t make a dime. They can add a mark-up in providing this option. They can make money adding applications like Google Toolbar on Windows portion too.

    As for the support, we (i.e., Microsoft) support applications on Apple, for an example we have a whole Mac Business Unit for porting Windows Apps to OSX. Diversity of available applications is a big plus of Windows over OSX and we do not mind extending this advantage to OSX. This is all in the spirit of loving customers while making money.

  97. I have finally gotten Vista running on a Dell, it was 12-14 hours of pain. I mean I have installed XP dozens of times. First I tried to upgrade, the upgrade failed and I rolled it back, five hours of my life wasted. Okay, I decided to do a clean install, wow everything went fast only took about an hour. Hey what is this Windows.old file, why is it 40 GIGs? oh and look my old program file and root folders, try to delete them, wow they are locked and not deleteable. Okay I can live with them but I have to delete the Windows.OLD file (40 Gigs), Right click – delete, wait 15 minutes, Explorer.exe crashes. Try again, this time using DOS, Del *.* hey did it work, nope! I had installed Office and Visual Studio 2005 which complains it’s not compatible with Vista LOUDLY! Funny that Microsoft can’t get their software to install correctly with out it complaining that it might act weird. Anyway that was another 3-4 hours of my life. OK, I definitely can’t get those files deleted, I will have to reformat (according to a friend), so during the reinstall I find the option to Reformat the drive removing all vestiges of the previous OS. This time it took about 20 minutes! (Definite Plus) I reloaded Office, oops too many activations! Call Microsoft and enter a bazillion digit key, “Please hold” a rep will talk to you about why this isn’t working, I told the friendly Indian chap about my Previous OS (XP) then the failed install and my previous Vista install, my VM and then my current system. He gave me another BAZILLION digit key to enter now office works again. OK install Visual Studio 2005, and Download the SP1 patch. (2-3 Hours) WARNING: Visual Studio 2005 SP1 will not work without first upgrading to Visual Studio Service Pack 1. Huh? Also tells me to install SQL Server Express SP2, which I still have to check into. I haven’t heard of the SP2 patch.
    Ok my machine is now almost ready I need to VPN into work, oh… I need to use Nortel Contivity Client to connect to the office, could it be as easy as running it in compatability mode? NOPE, it installs but will not run. Search the internet, no dice, no mention of Vista on Nortels website. I tried the Native Vista VPN but it didn’t work.
    So I turned off Vista went to my FREE computer I rebuilt from a neighbors machine that they were going to Trash. Logged on loaded my VPN and remoted into work.
    I have wasted a good part of 3 days trying to get Vista to do basically what XP does, I didn’t succeed, and your son is bummed about having a hard time loading it on his Mac, try loading it on a DELL.
    PS
    I went to Dells site and found some drivers for my D-800 most everything works, but not things like the volume keys or the some of the FN keys…
    I work on a computer 12 hours a day, I don’t think consumers are going to be to thrilled with Vista if they have to put up with what I did.
    Also my Linksys Media Extender won’t work with Vista for this I give Microsoft the Middle Finger.
    Good luck Patrick, you are gonna need it!

  98. I have finally gotten Vista running on a Dell, it was 12-14 hours of pain. I mean I have installed XP dozens of times. First I tried to upgrade, the upgrade failed and I rolled it back, five hours of my life wasted. Okay, I decided to do a clean install, wow everything went fast only took about an hour. Hey what is this Windows.old file, why is it 40 GIGs? oh and look my old program file and root folders, try to delete them, wow they are locked and not deleteable. Okay I can live with them but I have to delete the Windows.OLD file (40 Gigs), Right click – delete, wait 15 minutes, Explorer.exe crashes. Try again, this time using DOS, Del *.* hey did it work, nope! I had installed Office and Visual Studio 2005 which complains it’s not compatible with Vista LOUDLY! Funny that Microsoft can’t get their software to install correctly with out it complaining that it might act weird. Anyway that was another 3-4 hours of my life. OK, I definitely can’t get those files deleted, I will have to reformat (according to a friend), so during the reinstall I find the option to Reformat the drive removing all vestiges of the previous OS. This time it took about 20 minutes! (Definite Plus) I reloaded Office, oops too many activations! Call Microsoft and enter a bazillion digit key, “Please hold” a rep will talk to you about why this isn’t working, I told the friendly Indian chap about my Previous OS (XP) then the failed install and my previous Vista install, my VM and then my current system. He gave me another BAZILLION digit key to enter now office works again. OK install Visual Studio 2005, and Download the SP1 patch. (2-3 Hours) WARNING: Visual Studio 2005 SP1 will not work without first upgrading to Visual Studio Service Pack 1. Huh? Also tells me to install SQL Server Express SP2, which I still have to check into. I haven’t heard of the SP2 patch.
    Ok my machine is now almost ready I need to VPN into work, oh… I need to use Nortel Contivity Client to connect to the office, could it be as easy as running it in compatability mode? NOPE, it installs but will not run. Search the internet, no dice, no mention of Vista on Nortels website. I tried the Native Vista VPN but it didn’t work.
    So I turned off Vista went to my FREE computer I rebuilt from a neighbors machine that they were going to Trash. Logged on loaded my VPN and remoted into work.
    I have wasted a good part of 3 days trying to get Vista to do basically what XP does, I didn’t succeed, and your son is bummed about having a hard time loading it on his Mac, try loading it on a DELL.
    PS
    I went to Dells site and found some drivers for my D-800 most everything works, but not things like the volume keys or the some of the FN keys…
    I work on a computer 12 hours a day, I don’t think consumers are going to be to thrilled with Vista if they have to put up with what I did.
    Also my Linksys Media Extender won’t work with Vista for this I give Microsoft the Middle Finger.
    Good luck Patrick, you are gonna need it!

  99. Robert, loved your comment #30:

    “Mart: it’s pretty obvious you’ve never used Vista. It does a lot of things that Macs don’t, particularly on corporate networks with apps built for Windows. There’s a reason Macs only have 6% marketshare and your attitude here is a BIG reason why.”

    I just love the idea that the Mac’s low market share can be traced to the twin evils of corporate networks with apps built for Windows and MY ATTITUDE. Super!

    Anyway, just so we’re clear, I do think that you are exactly the kind of person who should stay far away from Mac – you’ll never be satisfied with the facilities it provides for crapping things up… and it’s clearly a pretty poor replacement for, say, a sooper-awesome Acer Ferrari (VROOM!) You know what they say, once you go Windows Vista Ultimate Signature Edition, you never go back! Well, I’m sure they’ll be saying it soon…

    As for the market share, I’ll just have to find a way to live with it, but thanks for your concern!

  100. Robert, loved your comment #30:

    “Mart: it’s pretty obvious you’ve never used Vista. It does a lot of things that Macs don’t, particularly on corporate networks with apps built for Windows. There’s a reason Macs only have 6% marketshare and your attitude here is a BIG reason why.”

    I just love the idea that the Mac’s low market share can be traced to the twin evils of corporate networks with apps built for Windows and MY ATTITUDE. Super!

    Anyway, just so we’re clear, I do think that you are exactly the kind of person who should stay far away from Mac – you’ll never be satisfied with the facilities it provides for crapping things up… and it’s clearly a pretty poor replacement for, say, a sooper-awesome Acer Ferrari (VROOM!) You know what they say, once you go Windows Vista Ultimate Signature Edition, you never go back! Well, I’m sure they’ll be saying it soon…

    As for the market share, I’ll just have to find a way to live with it, but thanks for your concern!

  101. I have Vista installed on my MacBook Pro using Parallels, not Bootcamp. I haven’t noticed any problems yet, though I haven’t used it in any meaningful sense yet either.

  102. I have Vista installed on my MacBook Pro using Parallels, not Bootcamp. I haven’t noticed any problems yet, though I haven’t used it in any meaningful sense yet either.

  103. Vista via Boot Camp works flawlessly for me on my 24-inch iMac. Sound, ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, the works. I am very pleased. I blogged about my experience, click my name to see.

  104. Vista via Boot Camp works flawlessly for me on my 24-inch iMac. Sound, ethernet, wifi, bluetooth, the works. I am very pleased. I blogged about my experience, click my name to see.

  105. No one here is learning. You are all fighting over two DRM-laden, overly-expensive, freedom-stealing OSs.

    No one here has even considered Linux. What is wrong with people? I guess you love signing your freedoms away with the evil EULAs you agree to w/o reading the fine print.

    Enjoy your DRM. I’ll keep my freedom.

  106. No one here is learning. You are all fighting over two DRM-laden, overly-expensive, freedom-stealing OSs.

    No one here has even considered Linux. What is wrong with people? I guess you love signing your freedoms away with the evil EULAs you agree to w/o reading the fine print.

    Enjoy your DRM. I’ll keep my freedom.

  107. Hey Peter@66: Actually I have used Linux an awful lot – I was a hardcore Linux geek from around 1995-2002 – Linux works well for me, but for me Mac is just nicer, and I haven’t experienced any reduced freedom so far… but I agree with you in that if the only two choices were Windows and Linux, I’d definitely be advocating Linux.

  108. Hey Peter; actually I have used Linux an awful lot – I was a hardcore Linux geek from around 1995-2002 – Linux works well for me, but for me Mac is just nicer, and I haven’t experienced any reduced freedom so far… but I agree with you in that if the only two choices were Windows and Linux, I’d definitely be advocating Linux.

  109. Hey Peter@66: Actually I have used Linux an awful lot – I was a hardcore Linux geek from around 1995-2002 – Linux works well for me, but for me Mac is just nicer, and I haven’t experienced any reduced freedom so far… but I agree with you in that if the only two choices were Windows and Linux, I’d definitely be advocating Linux.

  110. Hey Peter; actually I have used Linux an awful lot – I was a hardcore Linux geek from around 1995-2002 – Linux works well for me, but for me Mac is just nicer, and I haven’t experienced any reduced freedom so far… but I agree with you in that if the only two choices were Windows and Linux, I’d definitely be advocating Linux.

  111. Mart,

    I’m glad you like your Mac, but what does the Mac do for you that Linux can’t? Forget stuff like iTunes, iCalc, and iChat, since all that can be done in Linux. I’m curious as to what keeps you on the platform?

    Mart, yes, you have lost your freedom. You cannot legally copy your OS X CDs and lend them to your friends. You cannot see the source code to Aqua, or any other GUI. They won’y let you.

  112. Mart,

    I’m glad you like your Mac, but what does the Mac do for you that Linux can’t? Forget stuff like iTunes, iCalc, and iChat, since all that can be done in Linux. I’m curious as to what keeps you on the platform?

    Mart, yes, you have lost your freedom. You cannot legally copy your OS X CDs and lend them to your friends. You cannot see the source code to Aqua, or any other GUI. They won’y let you.

  113. FWIW, Apple has said very clearly that they will do nothing to prevent the loading of Windows on Intel Macs. They will also NEVER pre-install Windows or support it. You can complain about this attitude, but Apple is not going to change this policy.

    For those who still haven’t seen it, Apple’s strategy is not to compete for market share with Microsoft. That battle was lost a long time ago. CIOs will never go Apple, no matter how good OS X is.

    Apple strategy is to CREATE new markets by creating products that defy categorization. These new markets will not be in business and enterprise. These will be for CONSUMERS. The potential market for consumers is far larger than the business market will ever be. If Apple dominates the consumer market with iPod, iPhone, AppleTV, and wins the living room, the enterprise market would be small peanuts it can leave to MSFT.

    Until you understand that Apple intends to do NOTHING to challenge the MSFT monopoly, you will never understand what Apple is up to.

  114. FWIW, Apple has said very clearly that they will do nothing to prevent the loading of Windows on Intel Macs. They will also NEVER pre-install Windows or support it. You can complain about this attitude, but Apple is not going to change this policy.

    For those who still haven’t seen it, Apple’s strategy is not to compete for market share with Microsoft. That battle was lost a long time ago. CIOs will never go Apple, no matter how good OS X is.

    Apple strategy is to CREATE new markets by creating products that defy categorization. These new markets will not be in business and enterprise. These will be for CONSUMERS. The potential market for consumers is far larger than the business market will ever be. If Apple dominates the consumer market with iPod, iPhone, AppleTV, and wins the living room, the enterprise market would be small peanuts it can leave to MSFT.

    Until you understand that Apple intends to do NOTHING to challenge the MSFT monopoly, you will never understand what Apple is up to.

  115. You guys do realize the driver model in Vista is drastically different that it has been in the past? I would doubt that Steve Jobs has had too many of his iPod engineers stopping to make Vista drivers for an OS he makes no money on. I guess I am also a little perplexed as to why this is a real issue anyway. I can see why a few people out there might need to do a virtual PC type thing on a MAC to test things on a business desktop, but I guess I can not see why a normal user would care to shell out $3-4000 on a piece of hardware and put an OS on it (not that they would even know what that is) that was not built for the hardware. My clients with MACs generally do not even understand basic fundamentals of using a computer in the first place.

  116. You guys do realize the driver model in Vista is drastically different that it has been in the past? I would doubt that Steve Jobs has had too many of his iPod engineers stopping to make Vista drivers for an OS he makes no money on. I guess I am also a little perplexed as to why this is a real issue anyway. I can see why a few people out there might need to do a virtual PC type thing on a MAC to test things on a business desktop, but I guess I can not see why a normal user would care to shell out $3-4000 on a piece of hardware and put an OS on it (not that they would even know what that is) that was not built for the hardware. My clients with MACs generally do not even understand basic fundamentals of using a computer in the first place.

  117. Tons of drivers don’t work

    Uh, yeah. Same thing that happens when you try to put OS X on a Dell.
    Apple has put alot into BootCamp, with each new build, but hey…

    …it’s still Windows.

  118. Tons of drivers don’t work

    Uh, yeah. Same thing that happens when you try to put OS X on a Dell.
    Apple has put alot into BootCamp, with each new build, but hey…

    …it’s still Windows.