Why Google will stay in China, despite “evilness”

Ahh, I see over on TechMeme that Google’s founders say that being in China hurt its image.

So, why won’t Google just leave China and improve its image?

Easy: there are too many smart engineers coming out of Chinese Universities. Leave China and you not only leave a market with more than a billion people in it, but you leave all those smart people to join other companies who haven’t taken an oath to “do no evil.”

When I worked at Microsoft the most amazing software was being done in China (face detection, speech recognition, and video search, just to name three, are being worked on in China, and those are among the hardest things to build).

Why should we care about the quality of our educational systems here in America?

This is precisely why.

I personally support Google and other companies (a bunch of Silicon Valley companies are there, and have been there for years) being in China.

I was in China several years ago and realize that most Americans really have no clue about what’s going on over there. I sure didn’t, before visiting.

I want to visit China again to cover this ongoing story.

Comments

  1. They are not leaving. It’s about the money, and with 1 billion plus – there is a ton of it to go into Google’s pockets. Call it evil, call it what you like, I totally agree with your assessment. Yup, even blogged it late last night already. It was a nice PR move by Google. :)

    Rex

  2. They are not leaving. It’s about the money, and with 1 billion plus – there is a ton of it to go into Google’s pockets. Call it evil, call it what you like, I totally agree with your assessment. Yup, even blogged it late last night already. It was a nice PR move by Google. :)

    Rex

  3. You should read “Will the Boat Sink the Water”, which was written by 2 Chinese journalists in the 90′s, when things were a bit more open there.

    I figure China is going to go one of two ways:

    – They could see “positive” unrest (as happened in South Korea and Taiwan), and end up with a stable, representative government on the other side

    – They could collapse into internecine fighting if that doesn’t work out.

    They are starting to see the kinds of labor unrest the West had during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when the industrial revolution got going. How they handle that unrest is going to be a big story over the next 20 years or so.

  4. You should read “Will the Boat Sink the Water”, which was written by 2 Chinese journalists in the 90′s, when things were a bit more open there.

    I figure China is going to go one of two ways:

    – They could see “positive” unrest (as happened in South Korea and Taiwan), and end up with a stable, representative government on the other side

    – They could collapse into internecine fighting if that doesn’t work out.

    They are starting to see the kinds of labor unrest the West had during the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when the industrial revolution got going. How they handle that unrest is going to be a big story over the next 20 years or so.

  5. Robert,

    I am complete disagreement with you.

    You stated that there are Chinese students coming out of universities that may go work for other companies that have sworn to do no evil…

    OK. Google stating that it will do no evil is very objective and very subjective. No evil according to what set of morals?

    When both Google and Yahoo assisted the draconian Chinese government in having people arrested for doing nothing more than stating their minds WAS evil. If anything, freedom of speech cannot be legislated. Even if those people live in a country where the law goes against such actions, assisting in keeping that law is IMMORAL. What makes it even more evil is that both companies would rather cooperate with the Chinese government to keep their revenue streams intact that take a chance and help real people in need.

    I for one am in complete agreement with the free/open source/libre software crowd that is developing software to assist disenfranchied people in China beat the Chinese “firewall”. People have a right to state their opinions, even if they disagree with those of the government. Any attempt to assist with negating this is EVIL. Full stop.

    Making money should never take precedence of basic human deceny, even if it’s but one person at stake over billions.

    If the US ever becomes like China, I’ll vote with my feet and get out, either legally or illegally. I have not used Google since they did what they did. Likewise I’m not a fan of Yahoo. I use other search engines that do not derive their results from either of those engines.

    Yes, I’m ideological, but I have to be because human freedom is more important than money. Full stop. To ever agree to anything else make people evil. Full stop. There are no degrees of basic morality here.

    The Chinese government has no right to do what they are doing, and anyone who thinks otherwise should go live under that system as a blogger and see what happens.

  6. Robert,

    I am complete disagreement with you.

    You stated that there are Chinese students coming out of universities that may go work for other companies that have sworn to do no evil…

    OK. Google stating that it will do no evil is very objective and very subjective. No evil according to what set of morals?

    When both Google and Yahoo assisted the draconian Chinese government in having people arrested for doing nothing more than stating their minds WAS evil. If anything, freedom of speech cannot be legislated. Even if those people live in a country where the law goes against such actions, assisting in keeping that law is IMMORAL. What makes it even more evil is that both companies would rather cooperate with the Chinese government to keep their revenue streams intact that take a chance and help real people in need.

    I for one am in complete agreement with the free/open source/libre software crowd that is developing software to assist disenfranchied people in China beat the Chinese “firewall”. People have a right to state their opinions, even if they disagree with those of the government. Any attempt to assist with negating this is EVIL. Full stop.

    Making money should never take precedence of basic human deceny, even if it’s but one person at stake over billions.

    If the US ever becomes like China, I’ll vote with my feet and get out, either legally or illegally. I have not used Google since they did what they did. Likewise I’m not a fan of Yahoo. I use other search engines that do not derive their results from either of those engines.

    Yes, I’m ideological, but I have to be because human freedom is more important than money. Full stop. To ever agree to anything else make people evil. Full stop. There are no degrees of basic morality here.

    The Chinese government has no right to do what they are doing, and anyone who thinks otherwise should go live under that system as a blogger and see what happens.

  7. Peter: now imagine you live in Iraq. Search and replace what you just said about “Chinese” and put in “American.”

    We’ve had plenty of atrocities in our VERY SHORT (when compared to the Chinese) history too. Even today we have people locked up without going through any due process. There’s a teenager who’s locked up in Georgia for getting a damn blow job. And you’re throwing rocks at China? Let’s take care of our problems at home and fix our educational system so that the world’s best engineers come out of our schools instead of coming out of China’s. That’s the single best thing you can do to make sure my son’s kids don’t have to learn to speak Chinese.

    >>No evil according to what set of morals?

    Larry and Sergey’s.

  8. Peter: now imagine you live in Iraq. Search and replace what you just said about “Chinese” and put in “American.”

    We’ve had plenty of atrocities in our VERY SHORT (when compared to the Chinese) history too. Even today we have people locked up without going through any due process. There’s a teenager who’s locked up in Georgia for getting a damn blow job. And you’re throwing rocks at China? Let’s take care of our problems at home and fix our educational system so that the world’s best engineers come out of our schools instead of coming out of China’s. That’s the single best thing you can do to make sure my son’s kids don’t have to learn to speak Chinese.

    >>No evil according to what set of morals?

    Larry and Sergey’s.

  9. IMO, reasons for Google being in China are more about advertising money and getting foothold in the fast growing economy, than about smart engineers. Google is in an eyeball business – China got the balls. ;)

  10. IMO, reasons for Google being in China are more about advertising money and getting foothold in the fast growing economy, than about smart engineers. Google is in an eyeball business – China got the balls. ;)

  11. Tomi and Jeremiah: yeah, the China market is massive, but it’s the engineers there that are really worrying for these companies. Why? Imagine if Google left the China market. That’s bad enough. But they’d also have to leave their Chinese employees to Yahoo and Microsoft. Those two companies then could use them to create an even better search engine that’d kill Google at home, too.

    Remember, Google isn’t a dominant search engine in China. Baidu is.

  12. Tomi and Jeremiah: yeah, the China market is massive, but it’s the engineers there that are really worrying for these companies. Why? Imagine if Google left the China market. That’s bad enough. But they’d also have to leave their Chinese employees to Yahoo and Microsoft. Those two companies then could use them to create an even better search engine that’d kill Google at home, too.

    Remember, Google isn’t a dominant search engine in China. Baidu is.

  13. Well, I can’t really see that the smart engineers are the dominant factor here.

    Google can always have a research and development unit in China and utilize Chinese engineers there, or relocate them. Even if they left the China market.

  14. Well, I can’t really see that the smart engineers are the dominant factor here.

    Google can always have a research and development unit in China and utilize Chinese engineers there, or relocate them. Even if they left the China market.

  15. Tomi: you think you can “relocate” engineers out of their home country? You’re deluded. Are you a manager? Is this how you approach management problems?

    You ever move your family? I have. I can’t imagine leaving the country I live in. Not to mention that the government over there would never allow that to happen.

  16. Tomi: you think you can “relocate” engineers out of their home country? You’re deluded. Are you a manager? Is this how you approach management problems?

    You ever move your family? I have. I can’t imagine leaving the country I live in. Not to mention that the government over there would never allow that to happen.

  17. There seems to be some misunderstandings. Hopefully, these answers clarify a bit:

    1. No, I do not think that way about relocating at all. I just see that as an option for someone who’s willing to move abroad.

    2-3. Nope, I’m not a manager.

    4. I’ve moved several times with my family. But only very locally, i.e. 10 kms north, 8 kms east, 7 kms north-east etc.

  18. There seems to be some misunderstandings. Hopefully, these answers clarify a bit:

    1. No, I do not think that way about relocating at all. I just see that as an option for someone who’s willing to move abroad.

    2-3. Nope, I’m not a manager.

    4. I’ve moved several times with my family. But only very locally, i.e. 10 kms north, 8 kms east, 7 kms north-east etc.

  19. Has any study been done on the significance of the contributions of Chinese engineers vs. other countries?

  20. Has any study been done on the significance of the contributions of Chinese engineers vs. other countries?

  21. Robert,

    You are saying that a kid in Georgia is ‘locked up because he got a blow job’ ..? Do you understand that he was of adult age and the girl was underage?

    I do think the sentence was extreme, but the law is the law and unless you lefties want absolutely no laws regarding underage sex offenses (which many lefties are already pushing for) where does society draw the line?

    China is a whole other animal, not even in the same league as the red herrings youre trying to throw out in this discussion.

    Ask all of the free people in Iraq who just had their first free vote how that feels. Ask the people in Afghanistan how voting freely feels.

    Ask the Chinese…………. woops! You cant. They live under severe threat of the end of their life over there for even having a free thought, freedom of religion or seeing real events that happened in their own country online.

    And you support this? Sheesh.

  22. Robert,

    You are saying that a kid in Georgia is ‘locked up because he got a blow job’ ..? Do you understand that he was of adult age and the girl was underage?

    I do think the sentence was extreme, but the law is the law and unless you lefties want absolutely no laws regarding underage sex offenses (which many lefties are already pushing for) where does society draw the line?

    China is a whole other animal, not even in the same league as the red herrings youre trying to throw out in this discussion.

    Ask all of the free people in Iraq who just had their first free vote how that feels. Ask the people in Afghanistan how voting freely feels.

    Ask the Chinese…………. woops! You cant. They live under severe threat of the end of their life over there for even having a free thought, freedom of religion or seeing real events that happened in their own country online.

    And you support this? Sheesh.

  23. @14,

    Thank you, Ann. Some rational thought in here, finally.

    Robert, not only are you left, you are pro big business. That’s an unlikely combination.

    You carpet support for big business is a little much. I am NOT pro big business and never will be.

    We will NOT end up speaking Chinese. Full stop. If Americans cannot and will not get into university and study, it’s their own fault, not that of some other country. India and China both put copious amounts of people through university, but it means nothing. Most of them end up leaving their fields and going back to the farms because they cannot get work in their chosen career fields.

    One of the US’s problems is that we allow too many people in. We should cut it to about a quarter of what it is now. I’m not a racist, anti-immigration, or anything else like that. I’m a realist and a pragmatist with morals who is concerned that the economy of this country is starting to be controlled a little too much by big business.

    Google, if they had morals in response to the Chinese government’s request, should have been to say that we cannot and will not assist with anything anti-free speech. The whole purpose of a search engine is to find information. If a search engine company does ANYTHING — ANYTHING AT ALL to stymie that, they have no clue about the value of the human condition of freedom. Google, if anything, should pull out of China, and assist with helping the Chinese people overcome the great Chinese firewall that BLOCKS free access to information.

    Everyone has a right to free speech regardless of what their respective governments decree. To support a company that agrees with such governments is anathema. Period.

    Money is not a reason to contine to do business with immoral governments. Money is the root of mankind DOING EVIL. Period. Full stop.

  24. @14,

    Thank you, Ann. Some rational thought in here, finally.

    Robert, not only are you left, you are pro big business. That’s an unlikely combination.

    You carpet support for big business is a little much. I am NOT pro big business and never will be.

    We will NOT end up speaking Chinese. Full stop. If Americans cannot and will not get into university and study, it’s their own fault, not that of some other country. India and China both put copious amounts of people through university, but it means nothing. Most of them end up leaving their fields and going back to the farms because they cannot get work in their chosen career fields.

    One of the US’s problems is that we allow too many people in. We should cut it to about a quarter of what it is now. I’m not a racist, anti-immigration, or anything else like that. I’m a realist and a pragmatist with morals who is concerned that the economy of this country is starting to be controlled a little too much by big business.

    Google, if they had morals in response to the Chinese government’s request, should have been to say that we cannot and will not assist with anything anti-free speech. The whole purpose of a search engine is to find information. If a search engine company does ANYTHING — ANYTHING AT ALL to stymie that, they have no clue about the value of the human condition of freedom. Google, if anything, should pull out of China, and assist with helping the Chinese people overcome the great Chinese firewall that BLOCKS free access to information.

    Everyone has a right to free speech regardless of what their respective governments decree. To support a company that agrees with such governments is anathema. Period.

    Money is not a reason to contine to do business with immoral governments. Money is the root of mankind DOING EVIL. Period. Full stop.

  25. Peter,

    Big business is the crazy reason why we will never speak Chinese in this country. If it werent for our businesses buying up all of Chinas’s massed produced crap – their economy would tailspin.

    I agree with you that Google made a bottom line decision that leaves most Americans thinking, “ick, that was a stupid reason to stay in China.”

    I wish Robert could go to China and ask people on the street what religion they are – he’d vanish off the face of the planet in a nanosecond.

  26. Peter,

    Big business is the crazy reason why we will never speak Chinese in this country. If it werent for our businesses buying up all of Chinas’s massed produced crap – their economy would tailspin.

    I agree with you that Google made a bottom line decision that leaves most Americans thinking, “ick, that was a stupid reason to stay in China.”

    I wish Robert could go to China and ask people on the street what religion they are – he’d vanish off the face of the planet in a nanosecond.

  27. Ann: actually, I asked students in a bar in Shanghai what they thought about that and Tiananmen Square. I didn’t get run out of town.

    Interesting, though, that you aren’t even willing to put your entire name here. Why not? You live in America, right? What have you got to lose?

  28. Ann,

    I agree with you that big business helps our economy. I’m in disagreement, however, that we should let it (BB) dictate to the US government, which it readily does.

    You are right about Robert needing a wake-up call in regards to China. He should get a ticket to China, take his laptop, go to an Internet cafe, and start blogging about religion — specifically Falun Gong. He’d be snatched up by the Chinese secret police like a tornado, American or not — all in the name of keeping the state “safe”. Safe from what? A differing opinion? Ideal? Methodology? Way of life?

    The Chinese government is oppressive. Full stop. They are holding onto the ideals of “communism” while attempting to be western in their business dealings. It will not work in the end.

    Socialism, however, works if done correctly, something like Scandinavia. High taxes are fine if the payee gets a return on investment, i.e. medicine without additional costs, education through the BA/BS level, subsidized child care, and up to 60% of your retirement money tax free. It works fine if done that way.

    Oppressive governments should be shunned by American companies.

    I love this little statement:

    Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is
    communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

  29. Ann,

    I agree with you that big business helps our economy. I’m in disagreement, however, that we should let it (BB) dictate to the US government, which it readily does.

    You are right about Robert needing a wake-up call in regards to China. He should get a ticket to China, take his laptop, go to an Internet cafe, and start blogging about religion — specifically Falun Gong. He’d be snatched up by the Chinese secret police like a tornado, American or not — all in the name of keeping the state “safe”. Safe from what? A differing opinion? Ideal? Methodology? Way of life?

    The Chinese government is oppressive. Full stop. They are holding onto the ideals of “communism” while attempting to be western in their business dealings. It will not work in the end.

    Socialism, however, works if done correctly, something like Scandinavia. High taxes are fine if the payee gets a return on investment, i.e. medicine without additional costs, education through the BA/BS level, subsidized child care, and up to 60% of your retirement money tax free. It works fine if done that way.

    Oppressive governments should be shunned by American companies.

    I love this little statement:

    Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is
    communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

  30. Ann: actually, I asked students in a bar in Shanghai what they thought about that and Tiananmen Square. I didn’t get run out of town.

    Interesting, though, that you aren’t even willing to put your entire name here. Why not? You live in America, right? What have you got to lose?

  31. Robert,

    Some of us do not live or die by our internet persona. This isnt about me; its about your cheerleading of an immoral, repressive govt that doesnt allow their people to speak their own mind.

    Maybe a few students did speak to you, but they did so under great trepidation, I can assure you.

  32. Robert,

    Some of us do not live or die by our internet persona. This isnt about me; its about your cheerleading of an immoral, repressive govt that doesnt allow their people to speak their own mind.

    Maybe a few students did speak to you, but they did so under great trepidation, I can assure you.

  33. Peter,

    I cannot in good faith agree with you on Socialism. Scandinavia has a spiraling moral problem in that people do not marry in great numbers any longer.

    A society that loses the family as its moral compass is a society that is dying. Scandinavia has one of the highest rates of govt sponsored childhood – meaning, the govt takes care of the kids, not the parents.

    Any country that allows the cradle to grave govt control, like Scandinavia, is not a free society either. It’s not as corrupt as communism, but its never the answer either.

    Trade with Cuba and China are of two different ilks really. Cuba has been more of a threat in the past, while China has a nuclear threat that we agree to.

    Politics has sure screwed up relations, but that is where we are today; we have zero relations with Castro (but just watch the party when he’s dead!) and we have had good on going relations with China since Nixon opened that door ( and who gets scarce credit for it).

  34. Peter,

    I cannot in good faith agree with you on Socialism. Scandinavia has a spiraling moral problem in that people do not marry in great numbers any longer.

    A society that loses the family as its moral compass is a society that is dying. Scandinavia has one of the highest rates of govt sponsored childhood – meaning, the govt takes care of the kids, not the parents.

    Any country that allows the cradle to grave govt control, like Scandinavia, is not a free society either. It’s not as corrupt as communism, but its never the answer either.

    Trade with Cuba and China are of two different ilks really. Cuba has been more of a threat in the past, while China has a nuclear threat that we agree to.

    Politics has sure screwed up relations, but that is where we are today; we have zero relations with Castro (but just watch the party when he’s dead!) and we have had good on going relations with China since Nixon opened that door ( and who gets scarce credit for it).

  35. Ann: our government is far from perfect too. Want to visit George Bush’s prisons? Want to visit the kid who got a blow job and 10 years in prison in Georgia?

    The students were fairly open with me. My wife grew up in Iran. Kids in repressive states generally find ways to get across what they want without feeling the consequences of their speech.

  36. Ann: our government is far from perfect too. Want to visit George Bush’s prisons? Want to visit the kid who got a blow job and 10 years in prison in Georgia?

    The students were fairly open with me. My wife grew up in Iran. Kids in repressive states generally find ways to get across what they want without feeling the consequences of their speech.

  37. Reading the comments above there seems to be a feeling I don’t know just how repressive the Chinese government is. I know the repression well and have studied it close up. Just because I’m not communicating that side of it here doesn’t mean I’m not up to date on how they treat Falon followers, among others their government doesn’t like.

  38. And p.s.. please tell me where i said “america’s govt is perfect” while youre looking for that other stuff.

  39. Reading the comments above there seems to be a feeling I don’t know just how repressive the Chinese government is. I know the repression well and have studied it close up. Just because I’m not communicating that side of it here doesn’t mean I’m not up to date on how they treat Falon followers, among others their government doesn’t like.

  40. And p.s.. please tell me where i said “america’s govt is perfect” while youre looking for that other stuff.

  41. Robert,

    On not including last names: Some people value their privacy. I surf through a proxy server out of Spain, even though I’m in the western US. I value my privacy. I say things on some sites that are not popular with certain people, including people that are elected. I have a right to that privacy.

    Even in the US, we have no real freedom of speech in the truest sense. If you differ too much with the American political norms, you are considered a threat, even though you may not even be harmful.

  42. Robert,

    On not including last names: Some people value their privacy. I surf through a proxy server out of Spain, even though I’m in the western US. I value my privacy. I say things on some sites that are not popular with certain people, including people that are elected. I have a right to that privacy.

    Even in the US, we have no real freedom of speech in the truest sense. If you differ too much with the American political norms, you are considered a threat, even though you may not even be harmful.

  43. Peter: that was the point I was trying to make. That even in our so-called “enlightened” society that there are many who feel pressured to keep their identities secret due to fear of reprisals.

    Ann: well, I’d rather we focus on improving our own country before we get all up in arms over how other people run their countries.

    It’s attitudes like “we must teach those losers a lesson” that lead to wars. And to the mess we’re in in Iraq.

  44. Peter: that was the point I was trying to make. That even in our so-called “enlightened” society that there are many who feel pressured to keep their identities secret due to fear of reprisals.

    Ann: well, I’d rather we focus on improving our own country before we get all up in arms over how other people run their countries.

    It’s attitudes like “we must teach those losers a lesson” that lead to wars. And to the mess we’re in in Iraq.

  45. Ann,

    I agree with you on the family unit. The world is slouching towards Gomorrah, to quote Judge Robert Bork. What with homosexual marriage, legalized abortion, latch-key kids, you name it.

    I agree with you. I disagree on what a citizen should get in return for paying taxes. I pay and see no real return on investment. What real tangible resuslts do I see? Good roads? Not really? A military to protect me? Could be.

    I want socialized medicine as do most Americans. Medical care is a basic human right, not a priviledge. Even for illegal immigrants.

    Doctors make far too much money. The pharmaceutical companies have too strong a lobby in the government.

    Let’s get back to doctors making house calls and charging us a reasonable f(r)ee.

  46. Robert,

    That was absolutely pitiful! Guantanamo Bay was not set up under George Bush. And Abu Graib was also not his ‘prison.’

    Though you will argue with this point; GW doesnt micromanage his generals in the field, though the left would sure LOVE to do so.

    If we lose in Iraq, it will be because the left despises our military winning – not because some idgit in iraq was made to wear panties on their head.

    Get over it already! Iraq is a free country now and there aint squat you can do about it.

  47. Robert,

    That was absolutely pitiful! Guantanamo Bay was not set up under George Bush. And Abu Graib was also not his ‘prison.’

    Though you will argue with this point; GW doesnt micromanage his generals in the field, though the left would sure LOVE to do so.

    If we lose in Iraq, it will be because the left despises our military winning – not because some idgit in iraq was made to wear panties on their head.

    Get over it already! Iraq is a free country now and there aint squat you can do about it.

  48. Ann,

    I agree with you on the family unit. The world is slouching towards Gomorrah, to quote Judge Robert Bork. What with homosexual marriage, legalized abortion, latch-key kids, you name it.

    I agree with you. I disagree on what a citizen should get in return for paying taxes. I pay and see no real return on investment. What real tangible resuslts do I see? Good roads? Not really? A military to protect me? Could be.

    I want socialized medicine as do most Americans. Medical care is a basic human right, not a priviledge. Even for illegal immigrants.

    Doctors make far too much money. The pharmaceutical companies have too strong a lobby in the government.

    Let’s get back to doctors making house calls and charging us a reasonable f(r)ee.

  49. Robert,

    Only someone with total myopic vision (the Left) would say that Iraq is a mess.

    It’s the handwringing of the left (per usual) that has made it the small mess that it is.

    This war would have been over long ago if the Pelosi’s and the Kennedy’s and the Kerry’s would shut their yaps and let the soldiers DO their jobs.

    But seeing as you know zip about the military, I’m going to bow out now before you further embarass yourself in this line of thought.

  50. Robert,

    Only someone with total myopic vision (the Left) would say that Iraq is a mess.

    It’s the handwringing of the left (per usual) that has made it the small mess that it is.

    This war would have been over long ago if the Pelosi’s and the Kennedy’s and the Kerry’s would shut their yaps and let the soldiers DO their jobs.

    But seeing as you know zip about the military, I’m going to bow out now before you further embarass yourself in this line of thought.

  51. Peter,

    I think we can agree to disagree on socialized medicine. I have lived it and its not a good thing.

    There is no ‘free’ anything in life. Doctors who work in socialized medicine are not top notch – they have no reason to be.

    And our taxes, such as they are, mostly go towards social handouts that arent even needed by the people who use them. Our ‘needy’ in America are overweight, and have all the latest electronics – i see no need for paying more for them.

    But I appreciate that you do see the falling apart of the family unit in the world; thats a sad and tragic thing and the lefties are only all too happy to keep it going.

  52. Peter,

    I think we can agree to disagree on socialized medicine. I have lived it and its not a good thing.

    There is no ‘free’ anything in life. Doctors who work in socialized medicine are not top notch – they have no reason to be.

    And our taxes, such as they are, mostly go towards social handouts that arent even needed by the people who use them. Our ‘needy’ in America are overweight, and have all the latest electronics – i see no need for paying more for them.

    But I appreciate that you do see the falling apart of the family unit in the world; thats a sad and tragic thing and the lefties are only all too happy to keep it going.

  53. Ann: wild that you think the war is going well over in Iraq. How many billions over budget is it again? How many people have died? How likely are we to “win” anytime soon?

    My two brothers were in the military. But, all we know about you is your first name. For all I know is you are a PR person paid by Lockheed.

  54. Ann: wild that you think the war is going well over in Iraq. How many billions over budget is it again? How many people have died? How likely are we to “win” anytime soon?

    My two brothers were in the military. But, all we know about you is your first name. For all I know is you are a PR person paid by Lockheed.

  55. Ann,

    You cannot argue with me that doctors and pharm cos. make too much money. No doctor should enter the profession for the money. Rather, they should do it to help people as their primary goal. Money should not even be secondary. I visited South America a number of years ago, and I had to visit a hospital while traveling. I was impressed to say the least. They do more with less. Far more. It was the absolute cleanest hospital I have ever set foot in. The doctor that saw us was the epitomy of professionalism and bedside manner — and he wasn’t treating me any different because I was American. I was charged the same thing as the locals, a mere pittance. The nurses all seemed to really care for their patients, and I can assure you, everyone there was poor. That’s how American doctors should be, not driving Mercedes, living like John Edwards, and taking million dollar vacations to places that their patients, who most of work far harder, cannot afford.

  56. Ann,

    You cannot argue with me that doctors and pharm cos. make too much money. No doctor should enter the profession for the money. Rather, they should do it to help people as their primary goal. Money should not even be secondary. I visited South America a number of years ago, and I had to visit a hospital while traveling. I was impressed to say the least. They do more with less. Far more. It was the absolute cleanest hospital I have ever set foot in. The doctor that saw us was the epitomy of professionalism and bedside manner — and he wasn’t treating me any different because I was American. I was charged the same thing as the locals, a mere pittance. The nurses all seemed to really care for their patients, and I can assure you, everyone there was poor. That’s how American doctors should be, not driving Mercedes, living like John Edwards, and taking million dollar vacations to places that their patients, who most of work far harder, cannot afford.

  57. Peter,

    I know plenty of doctors (in the family) and none of them is ‘rich’ – most of them have ballooning malpractice insurance rates to pay (thanks to Edwards and other trial lawyers) and lots of overhead to pay, as well as their educations to repay.

    Being a doctor is not an automatic lottery win.

    As for the pharmaceuticals? I’m not for limiting what companies can earn. If the market bears their price, then so be it. If it doesnt, they will lose money and go another way.

    I also dont like limiting what any business person can make; if the market pays them well, that’s great. They in turn, put more money back into the economy by buying those mercedes.

    I am a realist, and a capitalist.

  58. Peter,

    I know plenty of doctors (in the family) and none of them is ‘rich’ – most of them have ballooning malpractice insurance rates to pay (thanks to Edwards and other trial lawyers) and lots of overhead to pay, as well as their educations to repay.

    Being a doctor is not an automatic lottery win.

    As for the pharmaceuticals? I’m not for limiting what companies can earn. If the market bears their price, then so be it. If it doesnt, they will lose money and go another way.

    I also dont like limiting what any business person can make; if the market pays them well, that’s great. They in turn, put more money back into the economy by buying those mercedes.

    I am a realist, and a capitalist.

  59. Rober @32

    Yes, i do think the war could be going so much better if the left would get out of the way.

    GW is one of the best presidents this country has had in a long, long time. He doesnt poll endlessly about what he thinks he should do; he just does the right thing.

    The American people arent afraid of war; they want it prosecuted for a change. Stop tying the hands of the soldiers and let them get to it. What are you afraid of? That we might win??

  60. Rober @32

    Yes, i do think the war could be going so much better if the left would get out of the way.

    GW is one of the best presidents this country has had in a long, long time. He doesnt poll endlessly about what he thinks he should do; he just does the right thing.

    The American people arent afraid of war; they want it prosecuted for a change. Stop tying the hands of the soldiers and let them get to it. What are you afraid of? That we might win??

  61. Ann,

    I AM opposed to living large. It’s tacky.

    Tell me this… what would YOU do should you find yourself in a monetary situation whereby you could not afford the medicine that you need to LIVE, not be comfortable, but actually stay alive?

    My grandmother pays over $400 dollars a month for her medicine that she would die without. She has medicare/medicaid, etc, but it’s not enough. Her medicine should be covered, since she’s given enough to society over the years in taxes, etc.

  62. Ann,

    I AM opposed to living large. It’s tacky.

    Tell me this… what would YOU do should you find yourself in a monetary situation whereby you could not afford the medicine that you need to LIVE, not be comfortable, but actually stay alive?

    My grandmother pays over $400 dollars a month for her medicine that she would die without. She has medicare/medicaid, etc, but it’s not enough. Her medicine should be covered, since she’s given enough to society over the years in taxes, etc.

  63. Peter,

    if it were me, I’d find alternatives to most of the meds being pushed out there by doctors.

    some of it is life saving, no doubt. a lot of it is just junk meant to deter the affects of the other bad meds.

    i think families ought to be taking care of each other, not the govt. churches do an outstanding job of that right now, in lieu of families.

    but the more the govt does, the less the family does for itself. and that is not right.

  64. Peter,

    if it were me, I’d find alternatives to most of the meds being pushed out there by doctors.

    some of it is life saving, no doubt. a lot of it is just junk meant to deter the affects of the other bad meds.

    i think families ought to be taking care of each other, not the govt. churches do an outstanding job of that right now, in lieu of families.

    but the more the govt does, the less the family does for itself. and that is not right.

  65. Ann,

    I agree with you (to a point). I’m a hard-core Christian as well, but I can only do so much for my family short of bankrupting myself in terms of medical help. Thankfully, my immediate family unit is healthy, but others in my family are not.

    The Church does help quite a bit, as it was designed. In terms of living large, I recall Christ saying something about taking up one’s cross and following Him. We cannot worship God and love our stuff. Big houses, fancy cars, etc. all detract from the Christian life. Christ stated that what man adores, God hates. Worship here does not mean literal worship, as you know, but placing undue respect for the acquisition of goods that we don’t need.

    No one needs a huge house. No one needs a Mercedes or BMW. People need a nice, clean home and a well-maintained car. People should be good stewards of their money and invest it rather than blow it on stupid desires like cars and large houses.

    Keeping up with the Joneses is stupid as is keeping up appearances to fit in.

  66. Ann,

    I agree with you (to a point). I’m a hard-core Christian as well, but I can only do so much for my family short of bankrupting myself in terms of medical help. Thankfully, my immediate family unit is healthy, but others in my family are not.

    The Church does help quite a bit, as it was designed. In terms of living large, I recall Christ saying something about taking up one’s cross and following Him. We cannot worship God and love our stuff. Big houses, fancy cars, etc. all detract from the Christian life. Christ stated that what man adores, God hates. Worship here does not mean literal worship, as you know, but placing undue respect for the acquisition of goods that we don’t need.

    No one needs a huge house. No one needs a Mercedes or BMW. People need a nice, clean home and a well-maintained car. People should be good stewards of their money and invest it rather than blow it on stupid desires like cars and large houses.

    Keeping up with the Joneses is stupid as is keeping up appearances to fit in.

  67. Peter,

    Ah, but whose definition of ‘nice’ shall we use?

    And is investing one of the things God cares about? ;-)

    I see what youre saying, but this is where each individual must take their own path. The people who can generate a lot of money, also tend to generate jobs for others. Who, in turn, put their money back into the economy.

    Sure, nobody ‘needs’ a huge house or a mercedes or a bmw, but those things are not evil in and of themselves.

    Money is not the bad guy here – but the love of money is a road to an unfulling life. My pastor can do a lot of good things with a lot of money, but his favorite saying is that “God can do much more with a righteous nickel than an unrighteous million”

  68. Peter,

    Ah, but whose definition of ‘nice’ shall we use?

    And is investing one of the things God cares about? ;-)

    I see what youre saying, but this is where each individual must take their own path. The people who can generate a lot of money, also tend to generate jobs for others. Who, in turn, put their money back into the economy.

    Sure, nobody ‘needs’ a huge house or a mercedes or a bmw, but those things are not evil in and of themselves.

    Money is not the bad guy here – but the love of money is a road to an unfulling life. My pastor can do a lot of good things with a lot of money, but his favorite saying is that “God can do much more with a righteous nickel than an unrighteous million”

  69. American/World Businesses need China more than China needs them.

    China also has great technical and creative people. Its in our interest to keep the doors open.

  70. American/World Businesses need China more than China needs them.

    China also has great technical and creative people. Its in our interest to keep the doors open.

  71. Ann, claiming “free people in Iraq” and “Iraq is a free country now” is ignorant, hypocritical and shameful. The invasion of Iraq did nothing good for US and obviously destroyed life of Iraq people.

    Back to Google in China topic, you obviously have no clue what’s going on in China. You indulge in your idealogical, religious and illusive thinking but refuse and fear to face the real world.

    People should simply ignore you here.

  72. Ann, claiming “free people in Iraq” and “Iraq is a free country now” is ignorant, hypocritical and shameful. The invasion of Iraq did nothing good for US and obviously destroyed life of Iraq people.

    Back to Google in China topic, you obviously have no clue what’s going on in China. You indulge in your idealogical, religious and illusive thinking but refuse and fear to face the real world.

    People should simply ignore you here.

  73. Robert said:

    “Peter: now imagine you live in Iraq. Search and replace what you just said about “Chinese” and put in “American.”

    We’ve had plenty of atrocities in our VERY SHORT (when compared to the Chinese) history too.”

    Sorry can’t let that go Robert. There is no comparison between what the Chinese government does thousands of times a day and what the United States has done in Iraq no matter your stance on the Iraq war.

  74. Robert said:

    “Peter: now imagine you live in Iraq. Search and replace what you just said about “Chinese” and put in “American.”

    We’ve had plenty of atrocities in our VERY SHORT (when compared to the Chinese) history too.”

    Sorry can’t let that go Robert. There is no comparison between what the Chinese government does thousands of times a day and what the United States has done in Iraq no matter your stance on the Iraq war.

  75. Hi Vijay,

    “American/World Businesses need China more than China needs them.”

    I would have to disagree with you here. America is still the largest consumer purchasing country in the world & the economy in China wouldn’t have expanded without the creation of jobs (and investment) in China by America companies & other developed countries.

    Note: I am not trying to be America-centric. But a lot of the growth in many countries can be directly attributed to investment by “westernized” countries & businesses.

    Government: As someone that personally doesn’t enjoy communism, I understand that some would object to doing any sort of business with governments we don’t like. At the same time, having a presence there is probably more likely to initiate change than NOT being there at all.

  76. Hi Vijay,

    “American/World Businesses need China more than China needs them.”

    I would have to disagree with you here. America is still the largest consumer purchasing country in the world & the economy in China wouldn’t have expanded without the creation of jobs (and investment) in China by America companies & other developed countries.

    Note: I am not trying to be America-centric. But a lot of the growth in many countries can be directly attributed to investment by “westernized” countries & businesses.

    Government: As someone that personally doesn’t enjoy communism, I understand that some would object to doing any sort of business with governments we don’t like. At the same time, having a presence there is probably more likely to initiate change than NOT being there at all.

  77. Rick: I was thinking more of how we treated the Indians, or the Chinese, or the Japanese (who we interned, even the ones who were American Citizens), or the blacks.

  78. Rick: I was thinking more of how we treated the Indians, or the Chinese, or the Japanese (who we interned, even the ones who were American Citizens), or the blacks.

  79. ha, I love comments such as Ann and Peter’s about what China “is”. Based, I’m assuming, on no contact with the country and a superficial look at the press they regularly read.

    I’ve lived here for over 7 years and continuously marvel at this impression of China as a totalatarian state throwing people into jail as soon as they write the word “Falun Gong”. Damn, here comes the police now.

    Anne, Peter – move to a country, live with the people there and I think, most importantly, don’t assume that because peoples’ idiosyncrasies are different from American’s that they are wrong.

    Also, please note that those great freedom loving, US supported Asian democracies such as Sth. Korea, Taiwan were brutal dictatorships well into the 80′s and 90′s of last century. Hell, Japan had virtual one party rule into the 90′s.

    The one thing your kind of simplistic analysis of countries such as China always fail to take into account is that cultures and governments also change in time. After all, who would have thought that the fiscally strong, surplus loving, freedom loving US government of the 90′s would have mutated into a government that supports increased government spending, large deficits, international nation building and large amounts of intrusion into the personal lives of its citizens.

    China now is not China of 1989, let alone 1976.

  80. ha, I love comments such as Ann and Peter’s about what China “is”. Based, I’m assuming, on no contact with the country and a superficial look at the press they regularly read.

    I’ve lived here for over 7 years and continuously marvel at this impression of China as a totalatarian state throwing people into jail as soon as they write the word “Falun Gong”. Damn, here comes the police now.

    Anne, Peter – move to a country, live with the people there and I think, most importantly, don’t assume that because peoples’ idiosyncrasies are different from American’s that they are wrong.

    Also, please note that those great freedom loving, US supported Asian democracies such as Sth. Korea, Taiwan were brutal dictatorships well into the 80′s and 90′s of last century. Hell, Japan had virtual one party rule into the 90′s.

    The one thing your kind of simplistic analysis of countries such as China always fail to take into account is that cultures and governments also change in time. After all, who would have thought that the fiscally strong, surplus loving, freedom loving US government of the 90′s would have mutated into a government that supports increased government spending, large deficits, international nation building and large amounts of intrusion into the personal lives of its citizens.

    China now is not China of 1989, let alone 1976.

  81. @45 And ironically the current administration is more constrained, and has MORE checks and balances set up than the administrations that interred the Japanese during WWII. And yet people like you think this administration is more out of control than FDR’s. If you want to see what trampling of rights felt like, study FDR’s during WWII. By comparison this administration is completely hamstrung. Oh, that’s right! You don’t read books, only blogs. Nevermind.

    How we treated the Indians? What have we ever done to India? Or the people from there that now live here?

  82. @45 And ironically the current administration is more constrained, and has MORE checks and balances set up than the administrations that interred the Japanese during WWII. And yet people like you think this administration is more out of control than FDR’s. If you want to see what trampling of rights felt like, study FDR’s during WWII. By comparison this administration is completely hamstrung. Oh, that’s right! You don’t read books, only blogs. Nevermind.

    How we treated the Indians? What have we ever done to India? Or the people from there that now live here?

  83. I would like to point out to the person who’s grandmother is paying $400 a month for her meds that if she were in a country where medicine is socialized, she would be allowed to die. In those countries medical care is a precious resource. It is only given to those who are determined to be able to give back.
    Since old people generally cannot work anymore, they get very limited care. This is fact. Diabetics only get a certain amount of dialysis for example. After a certain amount of time it is explained to them that “since you are in kidney failure, these are the symptoms to expect and then you will go to sleep and not wake up.” They get no more care.
    You should be glad your grandmother is allowed to get medication at all. In other countries medical care is not a right. It is a privilege.
    Drug addicts who cannot stay clean do not keep getting revived; old people and comatose patients are not kept on life support for years. Medical care is saved for those who will benefit the most. Our system has it flaws (and lots of ‘em) but it could be much worse.

  84. I would like to point out to the person who’s grandmother is paying $400 a month for her meds that if she were in a country where medicine is socialized, she would be allowed to die. In those countries medical care is a precious resource. It is only given to those who are determined to be able to give back.
    Since old people generally cannot work anymore, they get very limited care. This is fact. Diabetics only get a certain amount of dialysis for example. After a certain amount of time it is explained to them that “since you are in kidney failure, these are the symptoms to expect and then you will go to sleep and not wake up.” They get no more care.
    You should be glad your grandmother is allowed to get medication at all. In other countries medical care is not a right. It is a privilege.
    Drug addicts who cannot stay clean do not keep getting revived; old people and comatose patients are not kept on life support for years. Medical care is saved for those who will benefit the most. Our system has it flaws (and lots of ‘em) but it could be much worse.

  85. I am sure many people would have different opinions on “war for freedom” if the war happened right here in the US ;)

    Google will do whatever it takes to keep up with its growth. It could be better engineers, it could be the market, it could be anything. They cannot not be evil.

  86. I am sure many people would have different opinions on “war for freedom” if the war happened right here in the US ;)

    Google will do whatever it takes to keep up with its growth. It could be better engineers, it could be the market, it could be anything. They cannot not be evil.

  87. i have never come accross as many ignorant people in one spot anywhere on the web, many of you seriously need to see the world and stop reading tabloids, those of you supporting america’s free speach, war on terrorism, and general system dont seem aware you are living in one of the most conservative developed countys, the US, its government, laws ect are a laughing stock round the world. You criticize China’s lack of rights, which are undoubtedly awful, without seeing the growing lack of rights within your own country. try not watching fox news for a change. American news is laughable its so highly biased. I thought european bias in the media was bad until i spent some time in the states. If the world was just then Bush would be tried for war crimes, along with the majority of american presidents.

  88. i have never come accross as many ignorant people in one spot anywhere on the web, many of you seriously need to see the world and stop reading tabloids, those of you supporting america’s free speach, war on terrorism, and general system dont seem aware you are living in one of the most conservative developed countys, the US, its government, laws ect are a laughing stock round the world. You criticize China’s lack of rights, which are undoubtedly awful, without seeing the growing lack of rights within your own country. try not watching fox news for a change. American news is laughable its so highly biased. I thought european bias in the media was bad until i spent some time in the states. If the world was just then Bush would be tried for war crimes, along with the majority of american presidents.