Note to Steve Jobs: unions are only half of school’s problems

Well, I can certainly see both sides of this one. For those of us who work 40+ hours a week w/ standard vacation time, how could I not look at the picture as an hourly one that I can compare to my own job? On the other, as someone choosing a career, how could I not look at the decision in terms of my yearly income, and ability to support my family? I’m sure Mr. Scoble’s correct that it’s tough to find summer-only work that pays much. Sure there is summer school, but certainly that wouldn’t accomodate all teachers, and while I don’t speak with any factual basis, I’d guess that the pay for summer school is lower.

I’d submit that this disconnect in perception, with undeniably valid points on both sides, is a problem that may be as important as the lack of accountability that Mr. Jobs points out. The only fix my limited mind can conceive of would be to introduce parity with the rest of the working world.

1. Teachers should work a standard 40 hours a week with the same # of holidays that the rest of us get.
2. We, as the public need to know it. Since we ultimately are signing the checks, we need to be convinced of the level of your efforts the same way our boss’ must be convinced of ours.
3. Finally, as Mr. Jobs suggest, introduce accountability. As my output goes, so does my employment. Surely it seems reasonable to expect that if our teachers are sufficiently empowered (perhaps an issue in itself?), that we should be able to expect results.

What would the teachers do w/ the rest of the time? Obviously I’m not the best person to answer this. If you’re a teacher, I’d love to hear your thoughts. My thoughts are heavily colored with the taint of inexperience, but surely you can’t expect that to stop me from offering at least a few ideas:
1. Computer skills
2. Renaissance-style knowledge – Wow what a copout. But I guess what I mean is answers to questions that kids find

Jeff, you are correct about summer school. There are limited spots available for teachers to do that as fewer students are enrolled in summer school than the rest of the academic year.

Your idea to have teachers work a 12-month contract is one that deserves some thought. There is plenty that teachers could so with the time. Doing research, working on computer skills, developing new curriculum are all possibilities. I have been working in a 12-month position for the past six years, and the adjustment was not a difficult one. One thing to consider is that more and more schools are adopting different types of modified “year round” type calendars, so the traditional summer break is almost gone anyway is some places.

Were we live summer school is only for the students that did not pass a class. They have to be there during their “Summer” They don’t make it a pleasant job.

wow… well that was embarassing.. That last bullet point that I had no real business contributing to begin with was supposed to read:
2. Renaissance-style knowledge – Wow what a copout. But I guess what I mean is answers to questions that kids find *interesting*. Idea being to try and find ways to foster more interest in learning. (I guess I’ve been reading too many marketing and idea stickiness books lately)

scobleizer.com

you don’t exist any more
you are so last year

A major problem with education is that half of all children are below average and the education systems doesn’t make allowances for it with their focus on educating too many children on to go on to college. More children should get an education for the trades and skilled work.

Another major problem with schools is that a major proportion of wages are spent on administrator pay, not teachers.

Robert: what you talking about?

Fact is, education in the US is horrible.

I once worked with a man with a MSc. degree who could not find Iraq on a map. I remember reading about a study done a couple of years ago whereby thousands of American students, let alone educated working people could likewise not locate Iraq on a map of the world.

Why is it that European kids grow up speaking several languages, excel at maths and sciences, but our own kids cannot even tell you where a country is on the map that has been in the news everyday for years.

I know a few teachers. A couple of excellent examples of what being a teacher is all about. They care, they know, the impart knowledge as best they can. The problem is, according to my one close friend who is a teacher, is that the school systems pick some really crappy curriculum.

When I lived in Europe, I was amazed at the level of education that kids were getting far earlier than I received it. For example, I knew people who’s children were in the equivalent of say, 7th grade, and were already doing trig and calculus. Most American kids don’t get that until 10th or 11th grade, if at all.

This “no kid left behind” is trash. It doesn’t work. The US has had a literacy problem for over 100 years. We were number 41 last year in the world’s industrialized nations. So much for being the richest country in the world.

Kids graduate from school in the US who don’t even know the difference between an adjective and adverb. Who cannot even tell you that Washington was the 1st president. That Hawaii is even a state. I’ve heard people actually question the above as being true…

There is no career choice where people don’t complain about every aspect of their work – especially remuneration.

Are teachers underpaid? Perhaps some are. Is the salary the problem? No. In typical fashion money is thought to be the cure-all for a problem and we should line up a fleet of dump trucks full of cash to cover the problem until it surfaces again.

Processes exist to get rid of these EVIL ‘bad’ teachers, but they’re not followed, and the system is somehow blamed for that? Why not look at the problem from the beginning? How did a bad teacher get hired? Were they always bad? When did they go bad? What caused them to go bad? Attack the problem, because complaining, something it seems many teachers have far too much time to do, won’t fix it.

I’ve heard teachers from all parts of the world complain for years and years about every aspect of teaching, but mainly the money, and I’m just so tired of it that I tend to switch off most of the time. They’re no different to any other occupation in their desire for more money and attempts to justify their right to it (sometimes well justified).

Finally, I’d just like to say that it wasn’t us who put stars in their eyes or rose tinted glasses on teachers – they knew what they were getting into.

Why pay public school teachers $80,000 to get results? Most private school teachers earn far less and produce a better overall quality student. You are correct that the ultimate factor is being able to select who is educated. Public schools have to educate everyone.

BTW, I am a public school teacher. I would welcome the raise, but my salary is not the reason public schools are failing.

As for NCLB, what most people fail to realize is that the federal government has absolutely no role in education. The US Constitution does not reserve the right to the feds and San Antonio v. Rodriguez found that education is not a fundamental right.

Bob: Private schools get better results because of parental involvement. When you’re paying thousands of dollars per year for your kids’ education, you are going to make sure he/she gets it. Also, they can keep out kids who are falling behind (slow kids force teachers to spend more attention on those kids, slowing down the entire class). Also, parents who want the best education for their kids are self-selecting. They are generally parents who’ve learned the value of a good education (hence, probably are better educated themselves).

Even in private schools the teachers generally suck and would be better with higher wages. I watched teachers who were into math and science leave private schools too for private industry where they could make three to five times more.

All of the problems with government schools (inability to fire teachers, low pay, the resulting lack of incentive, lack of parental choice) could all be solved if the government reduced its role in education to that of providing an education voucher for each child that could be redeemed at any educational institution. Why try to engineer a competitive education environment with fair wages and teacher incentives and parental choice? These are all things that a private education market can take care of. The current situation is that we try to create the illusion of an open free market education by adding layers of bureaucracy and government-induced money wasting and lethargy to something that works perfectly well as a private industry. It’s madness.

Vouchers work. Unions are terrified of them because it takes the power away from the teachers and puts it in the hands of the parents, where it should be. Parents are the ones paying for the education, but have little-to-no control over their child’s education. They get a one size fits all curriculum at a sub par school with unmotivated teachers. Jobs isn’t quite right and Robert isn’t quite right, although both are dancing around the answer. The issue is the inability of the consumer (the parents) to choose the education their children. One solution is to fire bad teachers. Another is to offer more money to teachers so you attract better teachers. The other is to take your child out of schools that fail them. The other is to make teacher pay based on performance (and not just based on the grades their students get, as that just leads to teachers cheating on the students’ behalf). All of these are components of a free market education system, and all would play their appropriate role at the appropriate time if we set education free.

This isn’t the first time Steve Jobs has given his views on the state of Education. Here’s an interview from 1995 where he talks about it at length (scroll down to “The Importance of Education”).

The article and subsequent comments discuss solutions to fix our schools that don’t seem to educate our children. With that much I agree completely. We could do better.

Unfortunately, the solution is not a simple one. NCLB is a rather simplistic attempt to solve a larger problem. Getting rid of “poor” teachers would help, as would encouraging the good ones who really care.

I occasionally attend our School Board meetings, and at one of them our Superintendent commented that the children “come to school with so many more problems now…” A whole other issue but certainly part of the same puzzle.

I think it’s a travesty that our children are not more educated, but the solutions are not simple ones.

24 Stephen: I can’t help you with the math. The data comes from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
http://www.bls.gov/data/home.htm

I have a great deal of respect for the work done by teachers. My “were to live” decision was based on the quality of the local public schools and I am in awe of the hard work and dedication of the teachers who work here. It is a school system with standing room only on parent night.

A few thoughts.

Some posters are getting caught in the premise that the quality of the US public schools. By what comparison backs up this idea – by their own experiences or by a study? A poor comparison is the best student from one country and the worst in the US – thus concluding the public schools are bad. Why determine the quality because of compulsory education? Once more, does everyone agree on how to monitor a teacher’s or student’s progress?

Next, do people agree on the purpose of schooling? Is it about socialization or education? Most people think of schooling as a place to find friends, compete in sports, while others might argue schooling is to keep the kids out of the job market.

Next, private school teacher turnover rate is higher than public school rates – thus lowering the overall average salary. Plus, research from Dr. Ingersoll, Smith, and others (Teacher Follow Up Survey) suggest salary is not the sole reason for teachers leaving the profession, either. Dr. Chapman used a turnover model in 1984 suggesting three major factors: external factors being only one of the three.

I would argue that teachers are not professionals. There is no mystical quality to their work. Dr. Lortie in 1975 wrote that everyone who has gone through the K-12 system somehow believes they are experts. Good teachers make teaching look easy – and many people remember the good. This lack of mystique is one reason teachers can never be professionals.

Salary of administration is way out of control. This is because the “system” is upside down. Instead of the classroom being the center, people work to get out of the classroom. Flip this around and the structure of schooling changes. In other words, hire people to work outside the classroom first so that they may learn about the schools. As people gain experience then they are eligible for jobs on the campus. Once on the campus, they work toward getting a job in the classroom. After team teaching – then they get a job as a teacher. In this manner, only the best people are teachers – rather than principals hiring anyone who can breathe, we work to hire the best.

FWIW, principals can fire teachers but these same principals who claim they cannot fire poor teachers use salary as a means to hire new teachers. In other words, it is more economical to hire two new teachers over an experienced one.

There is much more to the complexity of the challenges in our school system – but arguments have gone on for centuries. In “reality,” key people do not want our schools to help the poor. They only want to keep the poor people out of the way – and if one institution (school) cannot do this then another institution (jail) is used as the weapon to keep the peace.

One last thought, school choice is a political phrase to avoid the issue of compulsory education. Ask voters if they want everyone to have equal access to education and most will say … what would people say? Should everyone go to school? Why? At what point are we a nation built on capitalism or socialism? After someone turns 18 do they suddenly become a capitalist and compete or does the learning happen while we squeeze them into classrooms and tell them to work in cooperative groups?

Now, just wait till you get to the details of the Schools HERE…

And, think about the ones in africa. War torn Iraq. Sri Lanka.

Well, in NJ teachers with a master and several years experience are paid over $80k per year. Yet, the system still sucks. We drive 35 miles to take our children to private school – and pay $13k a year in real estate taxes. The system sucks because they teach consistently to the lowest common denominator – it is only about standardized test scores – so reading comprehension and critical writing and thinking skills are all but gone. Thank goodness we have the ability to bail out of a broken system. But, I fear for the future of this country since most can;t. The scary part is most parents are OK because their kids are getting A’s. But, what they don;t seem to realize is that my son was a straight A student, but no learning. Moved him to a VERY GOOD private school, where writing, critical thinking and basics are what counts. It rocked his world. After a horrible first semester he is back on track and on honor roll. But this time he worked to earn the spot. In our public school a listtle over 1.3 of the entire class made honor roll. Huh?

Tell me about it. I have a Master in History and couldn’t get a job teaching Social Studies to high schoolers because I lack teaching certifications. However, who ends up teaching that Social Studies class? A guy called coach, whose approach to history is to read the boring textbook word for word.

So instead of teaching high schoolers in a high school, I took a job with a community college were- get this- I will be teaching high schoolers for college credit. Explain that to me?! It makes no sense. It only makes sense if you understand how powerful the unions are.

I know people with Ph.D’s who have been turned away by schools because they don’t have a four year B.A. in education. It is so sad it is almost funny- but it certainly isn’t for the kids who suffer through second rate teachers.

-J. Kaiser

Education is not the responsibility of the GOVERNMENT!

Paying teachers 80K a year is not the answer.

The problem with education is what happens to kids when they come home. Parents do not follow up and stay on their children to actually learn. Parents are the final authority and where the majority of issues reside with the poor state of public education system we have today.

Scoble:

So you say teachers should be paid more money and then you blast unions?

How are they supposed to improve their lot? Wait for management/school districts to increase pay/benefits out of the kindness of their hearts?

Jobs speaks out and everyone is listening. I have read all of the blogs posted to date. As a life-time teacher, I have a background from which to speak (if anyone will listen). 1)I knew what I was getting into (i.e. lower wages) for the sake of educating learners. However, wages have not kept up with inflation. Hmmm. 2)I work an average 50 hours a week. Two years ago when I had thirty fifth grade students, that number increased to nearly 60 hours a week at times, which just about exhausted me and my family 3)Parents play a large role in the outcome of education for their children. For example, when considering how well children perform on tests, the testing giant ETS claims that 90% of test performance can be explained by 5 factors: the number of days pupils are absent, the number of hours children watch TV, the number of pages they read for homework, the quality and quantity of reading matter in their homes, and the number of parents in their homes. A teacher can only control the quality of the instruction in the classroom. Yes, a teacher can influence parent involvement with their children, but ultimately, the parent chooses. I believe that parents are the ultimate influence of their child’s education. Lucky the parent who moves up the economic scale and has more choice available to them and knows how to manuveur systems 4) Whether you want to believe it or not, public education is political. Not only do teachers need to be involved with current research (reading, trying out new techniques, classwork, etc.), they need to be writing and speaking with their representatives. It is easy for a teacher to feel overwhelmed with decision makers who are not working alongside them in the classrrom. 5) Teachers pay for the own education their entire lifetime. That comes out of their yearly wages. Their is no education fund to support continuing education. They are the fund. 6)Technology plays a large role in today’s world, but is only as good as the teacher who knows how to use it. More work needs to be done in that arena. And then there is the factor of updating technology. With technology changing every few years, who will pay for the upgrades and shifts of equipment, software, training, etc.

These are some of the things on my mind while reading the blogs. It makes my blood-pressure rise when reading comments from influential Americans who may not be intimately involved with schools. Only when people get their “feet wet” so to speak, will change happen because teachers will continue to teach. It is their profession and obsession. By the way, in the public school district in which I work, I am currently on a peer assistance team working with a union teacher of 7 seven years who has had two years of below proficient rating. Five professionals (two principals, two classroom teachers, one Title 1 administrator) are helping her meet standards. We have been meeting with since Oct. Since that time, a plan was drafted with the teachers input. The plan states which teaching standards must be brought up to proficient levels in order to meet profiency according to her principal. There have been classroom observations, individual conferences, etc. to help the teacher move towards proficiency. They are being meet with the assistance of her peers. Ultimately, her principal will determine the outcome based on her performance. So far, the forum is working to help “bad teacher’s” performance. I would agree with the person who said bad teachers may be those who need improved training and education.

My final comment is this. Get involved with your local schools and local politicians. Every has that right in a democracy. You can influence change. Imagine influencing the lives of millions!

“The plan states which teaching standards must be brought up to proficient levels in order to meet profiency according to her principal”

John, I am curious, what happens if she fails to meet these standards? Will the union allow the school to fire her? Will she be transferred to another school?
The procedure sounds good IF after an unsuccessful attempt at helping her she could face termination for failure.

-J. Kaiser