Microsoft WPF vs. Adobe Apollo, part 329

April 20, 2007 By

Don’t miss the cool presentation app that Electric Rain showed me called “Standout.”

They chose Microsoft’s Windows Presentation Foundation to build their app on.

It’s really interesting to see who goes with one framework over another. I was talking with another developer last night at the Digg party who is a long-time Flash developer. He says he’s building something in WPF for introducing at Mix07 and tol me that WPF really surprised him in terms of the quality of experience that his team could build (he asked me to keep him confidential cause they want to stay in stealth mode until Mix07).

Are you a developer who has switched from Microsoft to Adobe or from Adobe to Microsoft because of either Apollo or WPF? I’d love to talk with you about why.

Anyway, here’s a short “Editor’s Choice” version so you can just get a quick 10-minute look. For a longer interview/demo, see ScobleShow.com.

[podtech content=http://media1.podtech.net/media/2007/04/PID_010987/Podtech_Editors_Choice_Electric_Rain.flv&postURL=http://www.podtech.net/scobleshow/technology/1456/editors-choice-electric-rains-standout-presentation-application&totalTime=606000&breadcrumb=167b23fe-fcc8-4430-bc59-95b3d7dbf434]

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  • Another comment

    well said, chris. to reiterate, wpf != wpfe. the app that electric rain built is a wpf app and works only on vista. apollo apps on the other hand will be cross platform and do not have a vista requirement. they can also be designed and developed on pc and mac as opposed to wpf and wpf/e (silverlight apps) which will be pc only for design and development.

  • Another comment

    well said, chris. to reiterate, wpf != wpfe. the app that electric rain built is a wpf app and works only on vista. apollo apps on the other hand will be cross platform and do not have a vista requirement. they can also be designed and developed on pc and mac as opposed to wpf and wpf/e (silverlight apps) which will be pc only for design and development.

  • Wanderley

    I have a somewhat related question:

    Why hasn’t something like “Standout” come along about 8 years ago? Computers have been able to show nice 3-D animations for all that long (even longer, actually).

    Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.

    Also, Apple could have done something about it with their Motion software, if it was easier to use for presentations, but instead they gave us Keynote, which blends nicely with its competitors, and falls way short just like them.

    I guess I’m just tired of being subjected to the same old slides all the time…

  • Wanderley

    I have a somewhat related question:

    Why hasn’t something like “Standout” come along about 8 years ago? Computers have been able to show nice 3-D animations for all that long (even longer, actually).

    Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.

    Also, Apple could have done something about it with their Motion software, if it was easier to use for presentations, but instead they gave us Keynote, which blends nicely with its competitors, and falls way short just like them.

    I guess I’m just tired of being subjected to the same old slides all the time…

  • Wanderley

    I have a somewhat related question:

    Why hasn’t something like “Standout” come along about 8 years ago? Computers have been able to show nice 3-D animations for all that long (even longer, actually).

    Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.

    Also, Apple could have done something about it with their Motion software, if it was easier to use for presentations, but instead they gave us Keynote, which blends nicely with its competitors, and falls way short just like them.

    I guess I’m just tired of being subjected to the same old slides all the time…

  • http://www.beercosoftware.com/ Chris

    @14

    Various presentation tools based on DirectX and OpenGL have come and gone since 1997-8. Some were based on Java3d, others on different layers above DX.

    The problem is that none of these tools or applications gained any traction and most of them simply faded away.

    What bigger companies do is find out what people want, and try to make that better. Instead of making what they think is cool and hoping people will buy it.

    One thing I didn’t hear mentioned is usability testing in Scoble’s video. That is VERY important for a tool like this.
    http://www.betterdesktop.org/wiki/index.php?title=Data
    Even Linux is doing usability testing now.
    As simple as something may be to the team that actually made the product, it can be very difficult for end users that have never dealt with it.

    That’s a huge hurdle they are trying to jump there. Again OpenOffice.org is so popular, because essentially, it’s very similar to the windows office suite, and it’s less intimidating for users. Interoperating with the same file formats doesn’t hurt either.

    A lot of times when something is brand new, like this product, a company will make it free, and try to promote it that way so younger people can get a hold of it and get it into use. Here that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    It looks like a brand new application, with brand new formats, a brand new work flow, brand new everything, and they are asking people to invest in it. The same people that already have tools that work for them that they do know how to use.

    This is very similar to the strategy of the other DX based products that came and went in the past 9 years.

    Maybe this will be different. Who knows. If it’s really aimed at big corporations, and that’s their user base, the price should definitely jump from $300 to $3000 I think. If you only get a handful of sales, normally you’d want them to be substantial.

  • http://www.beercosoftware.com/ Chris

    @14

    Various presentation tools based on DirectX and OpenGL have come and gone since 1997-8. Some were based on Java3d, others on different layers above DX.

    The problem is that none of these tools or applications gained any traction and most of them simply faded away.

    What bigger companies do is find out what people want, and try to make that better. Instead of making what they think is cool and hoping people will buy it.

    One thing I didn’t hear mentioned is usability testing in Scoble’s video. That is VERY important for a tool like this.
    http://www.betterdesktop.org/wiki/index.php?title=Data
    Even Linux is doing usability testing now.
    As simple as something may be to the team that actually made the product, it can be very difficult for end users that have never dealt with it.

    That’s a huge hurdle they are trying to jump there. Again OpenOffice.org is so popular, because essentially, it’s very similar to the windows office suite, and it’s less intimidating for users. Interoperating with the same file formats doesn’t hurt either.

    A lot of times when something is brand new, like this product, a company will make it free, and try to promote it that way so younger people can get a hold of it and get it into use. Here that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    It looks like a brand new application, with brand new formats, a brand new work flow, brand new everything, and they are asking people to invest in it. The same people that already have tools that work for them that they do know how to use.

    This is very similar to the strategy of the other DX based products that came and went in the past 9 years.

    Maybe this will be different. Who knows. If it’s really aimed at big corporations, and that’s their user base, the price should definitely jump from $300 to $3000 I think. If you only get a handful of sales, normally you’d want them to be substantial.

  • http://www.beercosoftware.com/ Chris

    @14

    Various presentation tools based on DirectX and OpenGL have come and gone since 1997-8. Some were based on Java3d, others on different layers above DX.

    The problem is that none of these tools or applications gained any traction and most of them simply faded away.

    What bigger companies do is find out what people want, and try to make that better. Instead of making what they think is cool and hoping people will buy it.

    One thing I didn’t hear mentioned is usability testing in Scoble’s video. That is VERY important for a tool like this.
    http://www.betterdesktop.org/wiki/index.php?title=Data
    Even Linux is doing usability testing now.
    As simple as something may be to the team that actually made the product, it can be very difficult for end users that have never dealt with it.

    That’s a huge hurdle they are trying to jump there. Again OpenOffice.org is so popular, because essentially, it’s very similar to the windows office suite, and it’s less intimidating for users. Interoperating with the same file formats doesn’t hurt either.

    A lot of times when something is brand new, like this product, a company will make it free, and try to promote it that way so younger people can get a hold of it and get it into use. Here that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    It looks like a brand new application, with brand new formats, a brand new work flow, brand new everything, and they are asking people to invest in it. The same people that already have tools that work for them that they do know how to use.

    This is very similar to the strategy of the other DX based products that came and went in the past 9 years.

    Maybe this will be different. Who knows. If it’s really aimed at big corporations, and that’s their user base, the price should definitely jump from $300 to $3000 I think. If you only get a handful of sales, normally you’d want them to be substantial.

  • http://www.directtextbook.com/ Chris

    Presentation is in its infancy. When you have a commodity or you are trying to attract a certain demographic I don’t think black and white power point slides will cut it. This application also seems to extend beyond the typical computer to slide show scenario into the next generation of mixed media.

  • http://www.directtextbook.com/ Chris

    Presentation is in its infancy. When you have a commodity or you are trying to attract a certain demographic I don’t think black and white power point slides will cut it. This application also seems to extend beyond the typical computer to slide show scenario into the next generation of mixed media.

  • http://www.directtextbook.com/ Chris

    Presentation is in its infancy. When you have a commodity or you are trying to attract a certain demographic I don’t think black and white power point slides will cut it. This application also seems to extend beyond the typical computer to slide show scenario into the next generation of mixed media.

  • http://www.zoom-in.com/ Megan

    Hey Robert -

    At NAB this week this debate was alive and well. We interviewed Sean Alexander (from Microsoft) and Mark Randall and Simon Hayhurst (from Adobe)…as well as a bunch of end users. I also spent some off-hours time grilling them about strategy moving forward. (Available in the podcast and blog links off our site.)

    I have to say AMP is pretty wild, and the energy in that room at the unveiling was some of the best all week. (Almost as wild as the RED camera, which for the 2nd year stole the show.) AMP finally makes the monetization piece real; and helps solves the infrastructure development issues for creative teams who will never have a big developer team to turn to. Some of the CTO’s from media companies big and small that I usually hanging with were bleary eyed this week just talking about the XML/PHP custom solutions they’ve been struggling with all year.

    Anyway, we’ve posted some of it last week but we’re also posting more next week –podcasts, blogs and interviews, captured from the show.

    You’re welcome to speak with our developers and designers as we’re beginning to test out both platforms right now. IMHO, neither is really ready for prime time (depending on how you want the pages to render, how rapidly you’re developing, how agile you need the process to be, and how much access you have to MS consulting svcs, etc.). Having said that, both Apollo and WPF are very powerful. Over the next 2 years there will clearly be a whole satellite industry of solutions (like Electric Rain) that make the tools easier to build with. It’s inevitable.

    We’re relaunching our site next month, and it’s a pretty radical overhaul, incorporating some of what we’ve learned. And then more next Fall. Would love your feedback!

  • http://www.zoom-in.com/ Megan

    Hey Robert -

    At NAB this week this debate was alive and well. We interviewed Sean Alexander (from Microsoft) and Mark Randall and Simon Hayhurst (from Adobe)…as well as a bunch of end users. I also spent some off-hours time grilling them about strategy moving forward. (Available in the podcast and blog links off our site.)

    I have to say AMP is pretty wild, and the energy in that room at the unveiling was some of the best all week. (Almost as wild as the RED camera, which for the 2nd year stole the show.) AMP finally makes the monetization piece real; and helps solves the infrastructure development issues for creative teams who will never have a big developer team to turn to. Some of the CTO’s from media companies big and small that I usually hanging with were bleary eyed this week just talking about the XML/PHP custom solutions they’ve been struggling with all year.

    Anyway, we’ve posted some of it last week but we’re also posting more next week –podcasts, blogs and interviews, captured from the show.

    You’re welcome to speak with our developers and designers as we’re beginning to test out both platforms right now. IMHO, neither is really ready for prime time (depending on how you want the pages to render, how rapidly you’re developing, how agile you need the process to be, and how much access you have to MS consulting svcs, etc.). Having said that, both Apollo and WPF are very powerful. Over the next 2 years there will clearly be a whole satellite industry of solutions (like Electric Rain) that make the tools easier to build with. It’s inevitable.

    We’re relaunching our site next month, and it’s a pretty radical overhaul, incorporating some of what we’ve learned. And then more next Fall. Would love your feedback!

  • http://www.zoom-in.com Megan

    Hey Robert -

    At NAB this week this debate was alive and well. We interviewed Sean Alexander (from Microsoft) and Mark Randall and Simon Hayhurst (from Adobe)…as well as a bunch of end users. I also spent some off-hours time grilling them about strategy moving forward. (Available in the podcast and blog links off our site.)

    I have to say AMP is pretty wild, and the energy in that room at the unveiling was some of the best all week. (Almost as wild as the RED camera, which for the 2nd year stole the show.) AMP finally makes the monetization piece real; and helps solves the infrastructure development issues for creative teams who will never have a big developer team to turn to. Some of the CTO’s from media companies big and small that I usually hanging with were bleary eyed this week just talking about the XML/PHP custom solutions they’ve been struggling with all year.

    Anyway, we’ve posted some of it last week but we’re also posting more next week –podcasts, blogs and interviews, captured from the show.

    You’re welcome to speak with our developers and designers as we’re beginning to test out both platforms right now. IMHO, neither is really ready for prime time (depending on how you want the pages to render, how rapidly you’re developing, how agile you need the process to be, and how much access you have to MS consulting svcs, etc.). Having said that, both Apollo and WPF are very powerful. Over the next 2 years there will clearly be a whole satellite industry of solutions (like Electric Rain) that make the tools easier to build with. It’s inevitable.

    We’re relaunching our site next month, and it’s a pretty radical overhaul, incorporating some of what we’ve learned. And then more next Fall. Would love your feedback!

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com/ Jason Bogovich

    @ Chris: It’s not so much that everyone should settle on a single format–competition in the formats themselves is good–it’s that the DOJ and th rest of us make sure that each of these formats work well with one another, hopefully complement one another, and are only used when there are a high number of users who can read such rich content.

    From the designer perspective, it’s a testitmate to your merit and ability to see–without techmeme spin0–which technolgies YOU choose to deploy based on THEIR merit.

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com/ Jason Bogovich

    @ Chris: It’s not so much that everyone should settle on a single format–competition in the formats themselves is good–it’s that the DOJ and th rest of us make sure that each of these formats work well with one another, hopefully complement one another, and are only used when there are a high number of users who can read such rich content.

    From the designer perspective, it’s a testitmate to your merit and ability to see–without techmeme spin0–which technolgies YOU choose to deploy based on THEIR merit.

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com Jason Bogovich

    @ Chris: It’s not so much that everyone should settle on a single format–competition in the formats themselves is good–it’s that the DOJ and th rest of us make sure that each of these formats work well with one another, hopefully complement one another, and are only used when there are a high number of users who can read such rich content.

    From the designer perspective, it’s a testitmate to your merit and ability to see–without techmeme spin0–which technolgies YOU choose to deploy based on THEIR merit.

  • Mr. Robinson

    “The digg community will not embrace it, …”

    LOLOLOLOLOL
    The “digg community”? Are you serious? A bunch of immature children that think they know everything about everything but in reality know nothing, and PRODUCE NOTHING worthwhile, while presuming to promote and condemn those that do PRODUCE something.

    The “digg community”, indeed. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

  • Mr. Robinson

    “The digg community will not embrace it, …”

    LOLOLOLOLOL
    The “digg community”? Are you serious? A bunch of immature children that think they know everything about everything but in reality know nothing, and PRODUCE NOTHING worthwhile, while presuming to promote and condemn those that do PRODUCE something.

    The “digg community”, indeed. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

  • Mr. Robinson

    “The digg community will not embrace it, …”

    LOLOLOLOLOL
    The “digg community”? Are you serious? A bunch of immature children that think they know everything about everything but in reality know nothing, and PRODUCE NOTHING worthwhile, while presuming to promote and condemn those that do PRODUCE something.

    The “digg community”, indeed. I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com/ Jason Bogovich

    Mr. Robinson, that “immature” community is indeed perhaps 5 percent developers and they–if still around and not obsolte–are younger slashdot community. A few of the folks who read digg do matter. They certainly have the ability to influence even younger folks, who might be even brighter than they. You have to look at things 10 years from now always.

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com/ Jason Bogovich

    Mr. Robinson, that “immature” community is indeed perhaps 5 percent developers and they–if still around and not obsolte–are younger slashdot community. A few of the folks who read digg do matter. They certainly have the ability to influence even younger folks, who might be even brighter than they. You have to look at things 10 years from now always.

  • http://geekspeaker.spaces.live.com Jason Bogovich

    Mr. Robinson, that “immature” community is indeed perhaps 5 percent developers and they–if still around and not obsolte–are younger slashdot community. A few of the folks who read digg do matter. They certainly have the ability to influence even younger folks, who might be even brighter than they. You have to look at things 10 years from now always.

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.”

    The presentation field was vibrant ten years ago… I supported Macromedia Action!, which competed with Aldus Persuasion and others.

    But then Microsoft included Powerpoint in Office, and quickly killed off the market. How could anyone rationally invest in developing presentation software any longer?

    jd/adobe

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.”

    The presentation field was vibrant ten years ago… I supported Macromedia Action!, which competed with Aldus Persuasion and others.

    But then Microsoft included Powerpoint in Office, and quickly killed off the market. How could anyone rationally invest in developing presentation software any longer?

    jd/adobe

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “Why have we been forced to use stone-age PowerPoint (or competitors) for all this time? Yes, I’m also implying PowerPoint and competitors haven’t evolved much in the last few years.”

    The presentation field was vibrant ten years ago… I supported Macromedia Action!, which competed with Aldus Persuasion and others.

    But then Microsoft included Powerpoint in Office, and quickly killed off the market. How could anyone rationally invest in developing presentation software any longer?

    jd/adobe

  • http://www.douglaskarr.com/ Douglas Karr

    Regardless of the framework, thanks for sharing this… it really does illustrate the next evolution of presentation tools and the ability to progressively disclose and transition that information to the end user. Fascinating.

  • http://www.douglaskarr.com/ Douglas Karr

    Regardless of the framework, thanks for sharing this… it really does illustrate the next evolution of presentation tools and the ability to progressively disclose and transition that information to the end user. Fascinating.

  • http://www.douglaskarr.com Douglas Karr

    Regardless of the framework, thanks for sharing this… it really does illustrate the next evolution of presentation tools and the ability to progressively disclose and transition that information to the end user. Fascinating.

  • http://www.psynixis.com/blog Simon Brocklehurst

    I think the question isn’t so much “Apollo vs WPF”, as it is “Flash vs Silverlight”. My opinion is that Silverlight, as it stands today, has a zero chance of winning.

    The reason? Developers want to write RIAs that run on all significant desktop environments. Forget about market share of OSes (which Microsofties seem obsessed by). The point is – if it can cost a developer almost nothing to develop for all significant platforms, simply by choosing the right technology, why wouldn’t they do that?

    Microsoft seems to seriously expect developers to be impressed by the cross-platform abilities of Silverlight. But they’re hardly class-leading, so I just don’t see that anyone will be wowed. To me, it looks like Microsoft has done a rather third-rate job in this regard.

    For anyone that’s interested, I’ve written more on this on my blog @

    http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/04/22/flash-java-silverlight-why-the-best-technology-will-win/

  • http://www.psynixis.com/blog Simon Brocklehurst

    I think the question isn’t so much “Apollo vs WPF”, as it is “Flash vs Silverlight”. My opinion is that Silverlight, as it stands today, has a zero chance of winning.

    The reason? Developers want to write RIAs that run on all significant desktop environments. Forget about market share of OSes (which Microsofties seem obsessed by). The point is – if it can cost a developer almost nothing to develop for all significant platforms, simply by choosing the right technology, why wouldn’t they do that?

    Microsoft seems to seriously expect developers to be impressed by the cross-platform abilities of Silverlight. But they’re hardly class-leading, so I just don’t see that anyone will be wowed. To me, it looks like Microsoft has done a rather third-rate job in this regard.

    For anyone that’s interested, I’ve written more on this on my blog @

    http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/04/22/flash-java-silverlight-why-the-best-technology-will-win/

  • http://www.psynixis.com/blog Simon Brocklehurst

    I think the question isn’t so much “Apollo vs WPF”, as it is “Flash vs Silverlight”. My opinion is that Silverlight, as it stands today, has a zero chance of winning.

    The reason? Developers want to write RIAs that run on all significant desktop environments. Forget about market share of OSes (which Microsofties seem obsessed by). The point is – if it can cost a developer almost nothing to develop for all significant platforms, simply by choosing the right technology, why wouldn’t they do that?

    Microsoft seems to seriously expect developers to be impressed by the cross-platform abilities of Silverlight. But they’re hardly class-leading, so I just don’t see that anyone will be wowed. To me, it looks like Microsoft has done a rather third-rate job in this regard.

    For anyone that’s interested, I’ve written more on this on my blog @

    http://www.psynixis.com/blog/2007/04/22/flash-java-silverlight-why-the-best-technology-will-win/

  • jonathan

    In the editor show it does not open with the line

    “And who are you?”

    I thought this was a trademark that would be in ALL videos.

    Robert please make this happen.

  • jonathan

    In the editor show it does not open with the line

    “And who are you?”

    I thought this was a trademark that would be in ALL videos.

    Robert please make this happen.

  • jonathan

    In the editor show it does not open with the line

    “And who are you?”

    I thought this was a trademark that would be in ALL videos.

    Robert please make this happen.

  • Luke

    Simon,
    This story doesn’t involve “Silverlight”, but WPF.

    But since you brought it up, Silverlight “apps” run on Windows and Mac. So your beef is that they don’t (currently) run on Linux. Your argument is that, devs will use Flash because that way they get Linux for free. But what if Silverlight is simply easier to use than Flash? For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++. What if using C# allowed for quicker development time, fewer bugs, etc? It could be that a dev would sacrifice the 0.5% Linux share for that ease of development. (I get the 0.5% share from multiple web usage stat sites.)

    I’ve read a bit on MS’s “Expression” tools, and they look very good. I’ve seen multiple devs saying that Silverlight apps are easier to develop than Flash. You think that means nothing, but I submit that it may well mean more than Linux’s pitiful web client usage. If not, Microsoft has talked of hiring people to do a Linux port. (You’d still hate Silverlight because you hate the company that makes it, but you’d have to find some other reason to “justify” your hatred.)

  • Luke

    Simon,
    This story doesn’t involve “Silverlight”, but WPF.

    But since you brought it up, Silverlight “apps” run on Windows and Mac. So your beef is that they don’t (currently) run on Linux. Your argument is that, devs will use Flash because that way they get Linux for free. But what if Silverlight is simply easier to use than Flash? For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++. What if using C# allowed for quicker development time, fewer bugs, etc? It could be that a dev would sacrifice the 0.5% Linux share for that ease of development. (I get the 0.5% share from multiple web usage stat sites.)

    I’ve read a bit on MS’s “Expression” tools, and they look very good. I’ve seen multiple devs saying that Silverlight apps are easier to develop than Flash. You think that means nothing, but I submit that it may well mean more than Linux’s pitiful web client usage. If not, Microsoft has talked of hiring people to do a Linux port. (You’d still hate Silverlight because you hate the company that makes it, but you’d have to find some other reason to “justify” your hatred.)

  • Luke

    Simon,
    This story doesn’t involve “Silverlight”, but WPF.

    But since you brought it up, Silverlight “apps” run on Windows and Mac. So your beef is that they don’t (currently) run on Linux. Your argument is that, devs will use Flash because that way they get Linux for free. But what if Silverlight is simply easier to use than Flash? For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++. What if using C# allowed for quicker development time, fewer bugs, etc? It could be that a dev would sacrifice the 0.5% Linux share for that ease of development. (I get the 0.5% share from multiple web usage stat sites.)

    I’ve read a bit on MS’s “Expression” tools, and they look very good. I’ve seen multiple devs saying that Silverlight apps are easier to develop than Flash. You think that means nothing, but I submit that it may well mean more than Linux’s pitiful web client usage. If not, Microsoft has talked of hiring people to do a Linux port. (You’d still hate Silverlight because you hate the company that makes it, but you’d have to find some other reason to “justify” your hatred.)

  • Mark

    Hi I switched from MS VS.NET Web development to Flex development recently.

    I guess I chose FLEX over WPF due to the market penetration already exhibited by the Flash Player, also the fact thats it crosses across all OS`s and will probably remain that way constantly.

    Yes it was a change as I had to learn actionscript, but its got a thriving community with pretty good support from Adobe.

    I am sure Silverlight will be a success but with such a large footprint needed to get running, it might cause a barrier to its success, at least with legacy systems. Where as flash player 9 is a relatively small footprint..

    my two cents…

    M

  • Mark

    Hi I switched from MS VS.NET Web development to Flex development recently.

    I guess I chose FLEX over WPF due to the market penetration already exhibited by the Flash Player, also the fact thats it crosses across all OS`s and will probably remain that way constantly.

    Yes it was a change as I had to learn actionscript, but its got a thriving community with pretty good support from Adobe.

    I am sure Silverlight will be a success but with such a large footprint needed to get running, it might cause a barrier to its success, at least with legacy systems. Where as flash player 9 is a relatively small footprint..

    my two cents…

    M

  • Mark

    Hi I switched from MS VS.NET Web development to Flex development recently.

    I guess I chose FLEX over WPF due to the market penetration already exhibited by the Flash Player, also the fact thats it crosses across all OS`s and will probably remain that way constantly.

    Yes it was a change as I had to learn actionscript, but its got a thriving community with pretty good support from Adobe.

    I am sure Silverlight will be a success but with such a large footprint needed to get running, it might cause a barrier to its success, at least with legacy systems. Where as flash player 9 is a relatively small footprint..

    my two cents…

    M

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++.”

    The logic in Adobe Flash Player is based on a single high-performance implementation of standard ECMAScript, with the addition of a richer-media object model.

    The logic in Microsoft’s upcoming browser plugin, “Silverlight”, uses whichever JavaScript engine the hosting browser makes available, with all the additional testing and performance issues this implies.

    jd/adobe

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++.”

    The logic in Adobe Flash Player is based on a single high-performance implementation of standard ECMAScript, with the addition of a richer-media object model.

    The logic in Microsoft’s upcoming browser plugin, “Silverlight”, uses whichever JavaScript engine the hosting browser makes available, with all the additional testing and performance issues this implies.

    jd/adobe

  • http://weblogs.macromedia.com/jd John Dowdell

    “For example, my understanding is that Silverlight uses C# while Flash uses C++.”

    The logic in Adobe Flash Player is based on a single high-performance implementation of standard ECMAScript, with the addition of a richer-media object model.

    The logic in Microsoft’s upcoming browser plugin, “Silverlight”, uses whichever JavaScript engine the hosting browser makes available, with all the additional testing and performance issues this implies.

    jd/adobe

  • qwerty

    I’m currently a professional Flex developer with a .NET background. Flex is okay for development, but MS has superior dev tools and Silverlight has a richer programming model. In my day to day work, I run into language/platform limitations inside Flash/Flex/AS3. I’m only aware of these limitations in large part because of my .NET experience using more powerful languages and runtimes.

    As for art/design, Adobe is clearly the big winner with a mature set of tools. The Expression line-up (while a good first attempt) simply doesn’t compete. Now, this could be a problem because it’s 1/2 of the equation to building RIAs. So this is how I see it going down: Artists/Designers will continue to use their Adobe tools. HOWEVER, they will be exporting their content not as SWF, but rather XAML. A number of XAML exporters for Illustrator and Flash are in development already.

    Supporting both Mac and Windows is enough x-platform penetration for most developers. Linux has Windows envy ;) You can’t beat Windows by copying. If you want to displace on OS, make it irrelevant. (Hint: that’s where RIAs can come in handy.) Silverlight adoption will no doubt come in the form of a Windows update and choosing Flash because of it’s 98% x-platform penetration won’t be a considerable argument anymore.

    Silverlight has greater POTENTIAL than Flash/Flex because it has a solid programming model and not because support for a programming model was slapped on a graphics/animation tool in version 4/5 of Flash.

    I’ll be continuing to use Flex/Flash in my day to day work and it’s not without excitement. The Flash Component Kit is certainly awesome (it allows you to take Flash content and export them as Flex components for seamless integration). BUT I will be actively studying Silverlight and searching the job forums for new positions…

    Later!

  • qwerty

    I’m currently a professional Flex developer with a .NET background. Flex is okay for development, but MS has superior dev tools and Silverlight has a richer programming model. In my day to day work, I run into language/platform limitations inside Flash/Flex/AS3. I’m only aware of these limitations in large part because of my .NET experience using more powerful languages and runtimes.

    As for art/design, Adobe is clearly the big winner with a mature set of tools. The Expression line-up (while a good first attempt) simply doesn’t compete. Now, this could be a problem because it’s 1/2 of the equation to building RIAs. So this is how I see it going down: Artists/Designers will continue to use their Adobe tools. HOWEVER, they will be exporting their content not as SWF, but rather XAML. A number of XAML exporters for Illustrator and Flash are in development already.

    Supporting both Mac and Windows is enough x-platform penetration for most developers. Linux has Windows envy ;) You can’t beat Windows by copying. If you want to displace on OS, make it irrelevant. (Hint: that’s where RIAs can come in handy.) Silverlight adoption will no doubt come in the form of a Windows update and choosing Flash because of it’s 98% x-platform penetration won’t be a considerable argument anymore.

    Silverlight has greater POTENTIAL than Flash/Flex because it has a solid programming model and not because support for a programming model was slapped on a graphics/animation tool in version 4/5 of Flash.

    I’ll be continuing to use Flex/Flash in my day to day work and it’s not without excitement. The Flash Component Kit is certainly awesome (it allows you to take Flash content and export them as Flex components for seamless integration). BUT I will be actively studying Silverlight and searching the job forums for new positions…

    Later!

  • qwerty

    I’m currently a professional Flex developer with a .NET background. Flex is okay for development, but MS has superior dev tools and Silverlight has a richer programming model. In my day to day work, I run into language/platform limitations inside Flash/Flex/AS3. I’m only aware of these limitations in large part because of my .NET experience using more powerful languages and runtimes.

    As for art/design, Adobe is clearly the big winner with a mature set of tools. The Expression line-up (while a good first attempt) simply doesn’t compete. Now, this could be a problem because it’s 1/2 of the equation to building RIAs. So this is how I see it going down: Artists/Designers will continue to use their Adobe tools. HOWEVER, they will be exporting their content not as SWF, but rather XAML. A number of XAML exporters for Illustrator and Flash are in development already.

    Supporting both Mac and Windows is enough x-platform penetration for most developers. Linux has Windows envy ;) You can’t beat Windows by copying. If you want to displace on OS, make it irrelevant. (Hint: that’s where RIAs can come in handy.) Silverlight adoption will no doubt come in the form of a Windows update and choosing Flash because of it’s 98% x-platform penetration won’t be a considerable argument anymore.

    Silverlight has greater POTENTIAL than Flash/Flex because it has a solid programming model and not because support for a programming model was slapped on a graphics/animation tool in version 4/5 of Flash.

    I’ll be continuing to use Flex/Flash in my day to day work and it’s not without excitement. The Flash Component Kit is certainly awesome (it allows you to take Flash content and export them as Flex components for seamless integration). BUT I will be actively studying Silverlight and searching the job forums for new positions…

    Later!

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