Google hiring funniness

Jeff Barr is an evangelist at Amazon on its Web Services team. He’s getting some funky recruiting email, says that the recruiters don’t have a good database of who has interviewed there before. Doesn’t make one confident that they have their act together when it comes to hiring “Googly” people. Personally I think it’s funny when recruiters don’t use their own search engines and when they put up artificial blocks to try to filter idiots out. Anyone who does an hour’s worth of research with a search engine, like, say, Google’s, knows that Jeff is worth hiring and isn’t worth treating with a bit of the usual filtering bulls##t. Either hire him, or leave him alone. I also wouldn’t let newbie recruiters even get close to anyone who has a blog — I’d make sure that bloggers get handled by a real pro, not the amateur hour kind of hiring folks that are pitching Jeff currently.

Hiring is hard, I know. There are very few people on the street right now. Two entrepreneurs that I met with today asked me if I knew any developers or designers who were looking for jobs. I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now, so if you want to hire someone you’re going to have to play a pretty good game. Especially if you want someone who has the rolodex that Jeff does.

Comments

  1. “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now”

    Hi, Robert, nice to meet you.

    Dori (unemployed since 1998 because no one hires middle-aged female geeks)

  2. “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now”

    Hi, Robert, nice to meet you.

    Dori (unemployed since 1998 because no one hires middle-aged female geeks)

  3. That’s amazing, since you’ve written books on JavaScript, which is hot hot hot right now. I’ll definitely recommend you now that I know you’re looking. Some things, though. You’re probably not willing to relocate, right? Many of the valley’s employers want you to be in the office. One thing that you should do is throw some gestures to the world when you’re looking for work. I haven’t seen you mention you’re looking lately and I haven’t seen you link to any cool JavaScript projects you’ve done lately, at least on BackupBrain.com, which is the blog I’m subscribed to of yours.

  4. That’s amazing, since you’ve written books on JavaScript, which is hot hot hot right now. I’ll definitely recommend you now that I know you’re looking. Some things, though. You’re probably not willing to relocate, right? Many of the valley’s employers want you to be in the office. One thing that you should do is throw some gestures to the world when you’re looking for work. I haven’t seen you mention you’re looking lately and I haven’t seen you link to any cool JavaScript projects you’ve done lately, at least on BackupBrain.com, which is the blog I’m subscribed to of yours.

  5. As I said, I’ve been looking since 1998 (yes, I’ve somehow managed to miss *two* tech bubbles!). I figure after I’ve mentioned it a few times, everyone knows and I shouldn’t harp on it. My last mention was on May 4, so it’s been 2-3 weeks since the last reference. That one didn’t go into as much detail as my January post didabout what I’m looking for, though.
    No, I’m not really looking to relocate. I love to travel, though, and the airport near me just re-opened, so I’m definitely available if anyone wants to deliver on-site expertise around the country/world (evangelism, training, and such).
    Dori (who’s not only written books on JavaScript and Ajax, but also on Dreamweaver, Java, Mac OS X, Wi-Fi, HTML, CSS,…)

  6. As I said, I’ve been looking since 1998 (yes, I’ve somehow managed to miss *two* tech bubbles!). I figure after I’ve mentioned it a few times, everyone knows and I shouldn’t harp on it. My last mention was on May 4, so it’s been 2-3 weeks since the last reference. That one didn’t go into as much detail as my January post didabout what I’m looking for, though.
    No, I’m not really looking to relocate. I love to travel, though, and the airport near me just re-opened, so I’m definitely available if anyone wants to deliver on-site expertise around the country/world (evangelism, training, and such).
    Dori (who’s not only written books on JavaScript and Ajax, but also on Dreamweaver, Java, Mac OS X, Wi-Fi, HTML, CSS,…)

  7. Dori: I took the extra tag out. Heheh.

    Anyway, weird that I missed that. Sorry about that. I still can’t believe that anyone who knows JavaScript is on the street right now. I bet relocation is the toughest thing for employers to deal with. Startups usually want teams to work together, especially in the formative stages. Or they just want to outsource and get the stuff done for low cost via Odesk.com or something over in India, etc.

  8. Dori: I took the extra tag out. Heheh.

    Anyway, weird that I missed that. Sorry about that. I still can’t believe that anyone who knows JavaScript is on the street right now. I bet relocation is the toughest thing for employers to deal with. Startups usually want teams to work together, especially in the formative stages. Or they just want to outsource and get the stuff done for low cost via Odesk.com or something over in India, etc.

  9. Robert, you haven’t dealt with the idiocy of trying to apply for a job. First, who does the initial resume screening? The hiring manager?

    no

    It’s an HR monkey, who, unless the position is an HR position, really doesn’t know fuck-all about it. That’s not stupidity mind you, that’s just not their job to know everything about everything. So, they have a list of checkboxes. Does your resume fill in every checkbox? No? Oh, so sad, into the roundfile you go. Doesn’t matter that you have ten, fifteen, twenty years experience. Don’t meet the checkboxes, you’re human garbage.

    Another issue is age. Quite frankly, the tech industry is, and has for some time now, been discriminating, albeit subtly, against anyone older than their early 30s. There’s a number of reasons given, but it’s all bullshit. They scream “We don’t have qualified coders” then ignore them when they don’t fit their little “twenty-something and too ignorant to know when they’re getting ass-raped by their employer”.

    You bring up relocation. Sorry, but 90% of it’s bullshit. You want quality people so bad you’re willing to bring them over from fucking India, but you won’t move someone 5 states over? WTF? As well, the “face time” requirement is mostly crapola. There’s little you’re going to get done in person you can’t get done with iChat and some video conference love.

    The ENTIRE myth that the US has no qualified workers is bullshit created by jackasses like Gates and others who don’t have the balls to admit that what they want are cheap, young, and somewhat ignorant workers who they have complete control over so that they can pay them far less than prevailing wages for US citizens, work them like dogs, then send them home at the first sign of getting uppity. All that’s missing is a whip and a collar.

    You can NOT convince me that there are no people in the US who are hirable, not when people like Dori are out and and still looking.

  10. Robert, you haven’t dealt with the idiocy of trying to apply for a job. First, who does the initial resume screening? The hiring manager?

    no

    It’s an HR monkey, who, unless the position is an HR position, really doesn’t know fuck-all about it. That’s not stupidity mind you, that’s just not their job to know everything about everything. So, they have a list of checkboxes. Does your resume fill in every checkbox? No? Oh, so sad, into the roundfile you go. Doesn’t matter that you have ten, fifteen, twenty years experience. Don’t meet the checkboxes, you’re human garbage.

    Another issue is age. Quite frankly, the tech industry is, and has for some time now, been discriminating, albeit subtly, against anyone older than their early 30s. There’s a number of reasons given, but it’s all bullshit. They scream “We don’t have qualified coders” then ignore them when they don’t fit their little “twenty-something and too ignorant to know when they’re getting ass-raped by their employer”.

    You bring up relocation. Sorry, but 90% of it’s bullshit. You want quality people so bad you’re willing to bring them over from fucking India, but you won’t move someone 5 states over? WTF? As well, the “face time” requirement is mostly crapola. There’s little you’re going to get done in person you can’t get done with iChat and some video conference love.

    The ENTIRE myth that the US has no qualified workers is bullshit created by jackasses like Gates and others who don’t have the balls to admit that what they want are cheap, young, and somewhat ignorant workers who they have complete control over so that they can pay them far less than prevailing wages for US citizens, work them like dogs, then send them home at the first sign of getting uppity. All that’s missing is a whip and a collar.

    You can NOT convince me that there are no people in the US who are hirable, not when people like Dori are out and and still looking.

  11. John – great and very accurate rant. Many people are cluless of how messed up this is and how many workers are idle.

    There are people with skills other than programming that aren’t being utilized fully.

    People call me for Internet and Mobile Search advice on the phone all day long, but the senior roles in start ups or search engines has taken longer than it should to land.

    In regards to Google hiring, they have a constricting HR policy that muffles the many voices of internal voices that have evangelized me. It’s been a while since I’ve even tried, but I have much more to offer, especially in mobile search, than I did a year ago. I’m happy to move out to the Bay area, but not until I know where I’d be working – getting an apartment in San Fran and getting a job in Santa Cruz would suck! Maybe I should come sleep on someone’s couch out there for a few weeks?

  12. John – great and very accurate rant. Many people are cluless of how messed up this is and how many workers are idle.

    There are people with skills other than programming that aren’t being utilized fully.

    People call me for Internet and Mobile Search advice on the phone all day long, but the senior roles in start ups or search engines has taken longer than it should to land.

    In regards to Google hiring, they have a constricting HR policy that muffles the many voices of internal voices that have evangelized me. It’s been a while since I’ve even tried, but I have much more to offer, especially in mobile search, than I did a year ago. I’m happy to move out to the Bay area, but not until I know where I’d be working – getting an apartment in San Fran and getting a job in Santa Cruz would suck! Maybe I should come sleep on someone’s couch out there for a few weeks?

  13. Two entrepreneurs that I met with today asked me if I knew any developers or designers who were looking for jobs. I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now, so if you want to hire someone you’re going to have to play a pretty good game.

    Nonsense. I know some designers who’d love to get better work. But I guarantee you’re not posting the whole story there robert. How many of these “OMGNOBODYTOHIRE” whiners are looking outside their little cocoon ? Do they want designers and programmers, or do they want someone who will fit a list of checkboxes?

    I know a company that’s advertising for a much higher position than what they actually want people to do, and what do you know, they can’t fill the position. Seems people have issues with being lied to in a WANT AD. Who knew?

    Like I said, the whole “we can’t find anyone” sounds good, but when you examine what the companies who are saying this are REALLY wanting, it suddenly makes sense. If you tailor your requirements so that the only people who CAN meet it are H-1Bs willing to work for half of prevailing wages, shocking how those are the only people you can hire.

    I’ve not even started on the utter refusal of american companies to train people, even if it’s as trivial as training a developer in a new language or platform.

    Anyone who says there’s no qualified, motivated people out there are morons or looking for savants.

  14. Two entrepreneurs that I met with today asked me if I knew any developers or designers who were looking for jobs. I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now, so if you want to hire someone you’re going to have to play a pretty good game.

    Nonsense. I know some designers who’d love to get better work. But I guarantee you’re not posting the whole story there robert. How many of these “OMGNOBODYTOHIRE” whiners are looking outside their little cocoon ? Do they want designers and programmers, or do they want someone who will fit a list of checkboxes?

    I know a company that’s advertising for a much higher position than what they actually want people to do, and what do you know, they can’t fill the position. Seems people have issues with being lied to in a WANT AD. Who knew?

    Like I said, the whole “we can’t find anyone” sounds good, but when you examine what the companies who are saying this are REALLY wanting, it suddenly makes sense. If you tailor your requirements so that the only people who CAN meet it are H-1Bs willing to work for half of prevailing wages, shocking how those are the only people you can hire.

    I’ve not even started on the utter refusal of american companies to train people, even if it’s as trivial as training a developer in a new language or platform.

    Anyone who says there’s no qualified, motivated people out there are morons or looking for savants.

  15. Well Scoble, maybe it’s time you join the club and add a ‘Jobs’ board, or refer people to the 37signals board.

  16. Well Scoble, maybe it’s time you join the club and add a ‘Jobs’ board, or refer people to the 37signals board.

  17. Actually Robert, you want to help? Ask people why the let HR completely hijack the hiring process. Ask them why they talk a bunch of shit about telecommuting and videoconferencing, then get green at the idea of actually using it.

    Ask them when titles became more important than experience. Ask them why, in fields where self-education is king, it’s still considered not “real”.

    The hypocrisy with regard to hiring people is almost disgusting.

  18. Actually Robert, you want to help? Ask people why the let HR completely hijack the hiring process. Ask them why they talk a bunch of shit about telecommuting and videoconferencing, then get green at the idea of actually using it.

    Ask them when titles became more important than experience. Ask them why, in fields where self-education is king, it’s still considered not “real”.

    The hypocrisy with regard to hiring people is almost disgusting.

  19. Oh yeah…where’s Podtech’s jobs page? Even if you aren’t hiring, where’s the page that says:

    “Hey, we aren’t looking, but you never know. Send us a resume, link to your blog, tell us about your mad l33t contact list, show us why you rock, and we may have more room that we thought. We’re about writing, video, editing, and finding the next wave that’s going to push the tech world in directions we didn’t think it could go. Don’t wait for us to ask you, tell us why we’re stupid not to hire you”

    Searched the site for “jobs” and “career”. No love.

  20. Oh yeah…where’s Podtech’s jobs page? Even if you aren’t hiring, where’s the page that says:

    “Hey, we aren’t looking, but you never know. Send us a resume, link to your blog, tell us about your mad l33t contact list, show us why you rock, and we may have more room that we thought. We’re about writing, video, editing, and finding the next wave that’s going to push the tech world in directions we didn’t think it could go. Don’t wait for us to ask you, tell us why we’re stupid not to hire you”

    Searched the site for “jobs” and “career”. No love.

  21. I’ve got 12 missed voicemails from recruiters in the UK today. Despite the fact my monster.co.uk CV says I’m only looking for work in the Valley or LA area. I think it encourages them or something because this is a fairly typical day.

    Trust me when you want to relocate, everyone wants you to stay where you are. Try it out :)

  22. I’ve got 12 missed voicemails from recruiters in the UK today. Despite the fact my monster.co.uk CV says I’m only looking for work in the Valley or LA area. I think it encourages them or something because this is a fairly typical day.

    Trust me when you want to relocate, everyone wants you to stay where you are. Try it out :)

  23. Scoble,

    I hire often for my business. It is SOOOOO hard to find people that are competent and have a good education.

    You have no idea. I have to compete against Ubisoft, Coppernic, and other software companies in my area, and even with companies that hire in house programmers. It’s not a picnic being a recruiter. It’s very hard work.

  24. Scoble,

    I hire often for my business. It is SOOOOO hard to find people that are competent and have a good education.

    You have no idea. I have to compete against Ubisoft, Coppernic, and other software companies in my area, and even with companies that hire in house programmers. It’s not a picnic being a recruiter. It’s very hard work.

  25. Clearly you hit a sore spot Robert. I’ve been there too. I currently live in Waterloo, Canada, and don’t want to relocate right now. The companies in the area claim that there are 2000 open jobs (in a community of 400,000) and they can’t find anybody. Truthfully, they just want new graduates or people starting out with little experience and lower salary expectations. And yes, it is the HR checkbox situation.

    I know many talented folks who just can’t get hired.

  26. Clearly you hit a sore spot Robert. I’ve been there too. I currently live in Waterloo, Canada, and don’t want to relocate right now. The companies in the area claim that there are 2000 open jobs (in a community of 400,000) and they can’t find anybody. Truthfully, they just want new graduates or people starting out with little experience and lower salary expectations. And yes, it is the HR checkbox situation.

    I know many talented folks who just can’t get hired.

  27. Global companies set up shop in 3rd world countries and hold up minimal food and shelter as enticement and 10000000 people beg them for work. That may work, but you have to spend years training them for 1 position and excessively supervising them, and they never gain the dynamism and skill that any one person has on this side of the Ocean.

  28. Global companies set up shop in 3rd world countries and hold up minimal food and shelter as enticement and 10000000 people beg them for work. That may work, but you have to spend years training them for 1 position and excessively supervising them, and they never gain the dynamism and skill that any one person has on this side of the Ocean.

  29. I don’t think anyone wants to hire a brit who’s not resident in the States, and I’m not financially secure enough to just go ahh hell and move over.

    The catch 22 though is that there aren’t any companies doing work here in search, or willing to do anything revolutionary.

    It’s bizarre that I’m so in demand here and can’t even find a way to get US companies to look at my CV?

  30. I don’t think anyone wants to hire a brit who’s not resident in the States, and I’m not financially secure enough to just go ahh hell and move over.

    The catch 22 though is that there aren’t any companies doing work here in search, or willing to do anything revolutionary.

    It’s bizarre that I’m so in demand here and can’t even find a way to get US companies to look at my CV?

  31. Oh the ‘best and brightest’ arrogance will bite them in the back, as their HR Dept. is a clueless mess, inefficient, spammy, lacking in basic field knowledge, unprepared, wholly inefficient, with a serious overemphasis on school pedigree and GPAs over raw real-work experience, and seemingly lacking in any sort of recruitment tracking. Hey, they work in search, tracking our every search query, you think they could get a handle on whom they pitch. They recruit like some automatic robotic algorithm, that whole human element seems to befuddle them.

    I know a certain someone that they were pitching for a Marketing position, now this guy was top of his field, having several Clio’s to his name, but he didn’t go to the ‘right school’ and screwed up his college GPA. But considering his client list and success, that was but the dim past, not at Google, that was the #1 issue. You’d think they’d focus on relevancy, being a search engine and all. Plus it was a long drawn-out process and he’s the type you have to schedule appointments with far far in advance, to be handled by some flunky who couldn’t even Google him, made him boiling mad. I guess the offer was big enough to get even him to look, but the process and sheer cultish arrogance of the Googlers, counted him out. And the irony of it, he controls massive advertising budgets…

    But I hear that same story over and over…(Jeff being another one). Someone should write a ‘kiss and tell’ Google book…

  32. Oh the ‘best and brightest’ arrogance will bite them in the back, as their HR Dept. is a clueless mess, inefficient, spammy, lacking in basic field knowledge, unprepared, wholly inefficient, with a serious overemphasis on school pedigree and GPAs over raw real-work experience, and seemingly lacking in any sort of recruitment tracking. Hey, they work in search, tracking our every search query, you think they could get a handle on whom they pitch. They recruit like some automatic robotic algorithm, that whole human element seems to befuddle them.

    I know a certain someone that they were pitching for a Marketing position, now this guy was top of his field, having several Clio’s to his name, but he didn’t go to the ‘right school’ and screwed up his college GPA. But considering his client list and success, that was but the dim past, not at Google, that was the #1 issue. You’d think they’d focus on relevancy, being a search engine and all. Plus it was a long drawn-out process and he’s the type you have to schedule appointments with far far in advance, to be handled by some flunky who couldn’t even Google him, made him boiling mad. I guess the offer was big enough to get even him to look, but the process and sheer cultish arrogance of the Googlers, counted him out. And the irony of it, he controls massive advertising budgets…

    But I hear that same story over and over…(Jeff being another one). Someone should write a ‘kiss and tell’ Google book…

  33. Same thing happens at Amazon, you get a call about one job and tell them that you’re already in talks about another job — however that’s handled by a different recruiter so they don’t know about you.

    I think that’s more of Amazon using independent contractors for recruiters than anything else. A lot of other places have this problem as well.

  34. Same thing happens at Amazon, you get a call about one job and tell them that you’re already in talks about another job — however that’s handled by a different recruiter so they don’t know about you.

    I think that’s more of Amazon using independent contractors for recruiters than anything else. A lot of other places have this problem as well.

  35. http://kentsimperative.blogspot.com/2007/05/hr-woes-in-outside-world.html

    We are personally aware of the case of one very talented, exceptionally qualified intelligence professional (with technological specialization in some areas Google was rapidly seeking to expand into), who liked the idea of trading in all of the black world for sunny California instead. This individual, whose particular expertise and background was more than simply unique, found out that the schizophrenia of the Googleplex ….

  36. http://kentsimperative.blogspot.com/2007/05/hr-woes-in-outside-world.html

    We are personally aware of the case of one very talented, exceptionally qualified intelligence professional (with technological specialization in some areas Google was rapidly seeking to expand into), who liked the idea of trading in all of the black world for sunny California instead. This individual, whose particular expertise and background was more than simply unique, found out that the schizophrenia of the Googleplex ….

  37. I’ve got 12 missed voicemails from recruiters in the UK today. Despite the fact my monster.co.uk CV says I’m only looking for work in the Valley or LA area. I think it encourages them or something because this is a fairly typical day.

    Mine says the only place I want to work is florida, yet I keep getting calls from friggin’ OMAHA.

    I hire often for my business. It is SOOOOO hard to find people that are competent and have a good education.

    that depends. Are you automatically dismissing anyone sans bachelors or higher? You know Chris, it might be easier to hire people if BeerCo’s site had a “careers” link of some kind on the main page. What are you gaining by hiding it? Evidently not a lot of “qualified” applicants.

  38. I’ve got 12 missed voicemails from recruiters in the UK today. Despite the fact my monster.co.uk CV says I’m only looking for work in the Valley or LA area. I think it encourages them or something because this is a fairly typical day.

    Mine says the only place I want to work is florida, yet I keep getting calls from friggin’ OMAHA.

    I hire often for my business. It is SOOOOO hard to find people that are competent and have a good education.

    that depends. Are you automatically dismissing anyone sans bachelors or higher? You know Chris, it might be easier to hire people if BeerCo’s site had a “careers” link of some kind on the main page. What are you gaining by hiding it? Evidently not a lot of “qualified” applicants.

  39. Wait! Isn’t Google the company that refuses hire anything less than “A” players, with “A” being defined as: PhD, can program scary smart in PHP/PERL/C++/AJAX/etc…, drives a Prius, can define the next in the set (mod, emo, mash-up,…), wears t-shirts and generally disdains the mass culture that they are effectively selling their warez into?
    I’m sure they’re not having any problem maintaining their standards in the face of hiring 8,734 people per hour.
    Mick had it right: “Meet the new boss…looks a lot like the old boss.”

  40. Wait! Isn’t Google the company that refuses hire anything less than “A” players, with “A” being defined as: PhD, can program scary smart in PHP/PERL/C++/AJAX/etc…, drives a Prius, can define the next in the set (mod, emo, mash-up,…), wears t-shirts and generally disdains the mass culture that they are effectively selling their warez into?
    I’m sure they’re not having any problem maintaining their standards in the face of hiring 8,734 people per hour.
    Mick had it right: “Meet the new boss…looks a lot like the old boss.”

  41. Being able to bypass HR can sometimes be achieved by finding the right Recruiter to represent you. Often times firms work directly with the Hiring Managers and bypass the bottleneck that is HR.

    Unfortunately – finding a good Recruiter can be just as challenging. I know, I am one. Finding a good one can be like trying to find a good used car salesman….

    I have found it challenging to find an abundance of qualified talent here in the Midwest recently. I have also found that Companies are being much, much more specific about what they are looking for. Combine that with the fact that salaries are not up to par with demand for experienced people currently and we are in a challenging time in the industry….

  42. Being able to bypass HR can sometimes be achieved by finding the right Recruiter to represent you. Often times firms work directly with the Hiring Managers and bypass the bottleneck that is HR.

    Unfortunately – finding a good Recruiter can be just as challenging. I know, I am one. Finding a good one can be like trying to find a good used car salesman….

    I have found it challenging to find an abundance of qualified talent here in the Midwest recently. I have also found that Companies are being much, much more specific about what they are looking for. Combine that with the fact that salaries are not up to par with demand for experienced people currently and we are in a challenging time in the industry….

  43. I have to voice agreement with the problems in being hired. I am passively looking at this point with no real plan in mind, but the thing that keeps on cropping up is that the amount of skills needed in one person are phenominal. For example this security position.

    Bachelor’s degree in computer security, systems engineering, or a related field
    + 5 years of information technology experience. In addition, three or more years of experience of a highly technical nature related to the support of information security technologies.
    Multiple certifications (CISSP, SCCP, CCNA, MCSA, SANS).
    Knowledge of information security principles and procedures.
    Knowledge of regulatory compliance principles; experience with Sarbanes-Oxley; Gramm – Leach – Bliley, HIPPA, and ISO 17799.
    Hands-on experience managing: Windows Server 2003, SMS, Windows XP, SQL, Cisco, Unix, PKI, intrusion detection/protection, vulnerability assessment tools for network periphery and internal network/service discovery and topology mapping, forensics tools, sniffers, hex editors, VPN, encryption, wireless security, e-mail security, Antivirus, Identity Management, IDS/IPS and Unix.
    Must have strong incident handling and forensics experience including knowledge of common probing and attack methods, network/service discovery, system auditing, viruses, and worms.

    I know no one who has all these, but this is an honest job description. I don’t mind working, if anyone has all these skills to go work for a non profit, let me know I’ll forward the whole package.

  44. I have to voice agreement with the problems in being hired. I am passively looking at this point with no real plan in mind, but the thing that keeps on cropping up is that the amount of skills needed in one person are phenominal. For example this security position.

    Bachelor’s degree in computer security, systems engineering, or a related field
    + 5 years of information technology experience. In addition, three or more years of experience of a highly technical nature related to the support of information security technologies.
    Multiple certifications (CISSP, SCCP, CCNA, MCSA, SANS).
    Knowledge of information security principles and procedures.
    Knowledge of regulatory compliance principles; experience with Sarbanes-Oxley; Gramm – Leach – Bliley, HIPPA, and ISO 17799.
    Hands-on experience managing: Windows Server 2003, SMS, Windows XP, SQL, Cisco, Unix, PKI, intrusion detection/protection, vulnerability assessment tools for network periphery and internal network/service discovery and topology mapping, forensics tools, sniffers, hex editors, VPN, encryption, wireless security, e-mail security, Antivirus, Identity Management, IDS/IPS and Unix.
    Must have strong incident handling and forensics experience including knowledge of common probing and attack methods, network/service discovery, system auditing, viruses, and worms.

    I know no one who has all these, but this is an honest job description. I don’t mind working, if anyone has all these skills to go work for a non profit, let me know I’ll forward the whole package.

  45. Being able to bypass HR can sometimes be achieved by finding the right Recruiter to represent you. Often times firms work directly with the Hiring Managers and bypass the bottleneck that is HR.

    Maybe instead of working around the problem, people should start telling companies that they have no interest in wasting time with HR resume filters. Enabling the success of the problem by standing on your head to work around it is not going to fix it.

    I have found it challenging to find an abundance of qualified talent here in the Midwest recently. I have also found that Companies are being much, much more specific about what they are looking for.

    Of course they are. If you make sure that no one can meet your job description, pushing that H-1B shit gets much simpler.

  46. Being able to bypass HR can sometimes be achieved by finding the right Recruiter to represent you. Often times firms work directly with the Hiring Managers and bypass the bottleneck that is HR.

    Maybe instead of working around the problem, people should start telling companies that they have no interest in wasting time with HR resume filters. Enabling the success of the problem by standing on your head to work around it is not going to fix it.

    I have found it challenging to find an abundance of qualified talent here in the Midwest recently. I have also found that Companies are being much, much more specific about what they are looking for.

    Of course they are. If you make sure that no one can meet your job description, pushing that H-1B shit gets much simpler.

  47. I don’t disagree but that doesn’t help the person trying to get a job today.

    I no longer have any clients even accepting H1B’s…. Even the one’s that did back in the .com days no longer do. I think companies are not yet realizing the shortage that is arising.

    But I agree it is amzing that companies are growing by leaps and bounds in spite of their HR incompetencies…

  48. I don’t disagree but that doesn’t help the person trying to get a job today.

    I no longer have any clients even accepting H1B’s…. Even the one’s that did back in the .com days no longer do. I think companies are not yet realizing the shortage that is arising.

    But I agree it is amzing that companies are growing by leaps and bounds in spite of their HR incompetencies…

  49. I think companies are not yet realizing the shortage that is arising.

    But I agree it is amzing that companies are growing by leaps and bounds in spite of their HR incompetencies…

    Because the shortage is a myth. What they don’t want to do is commit to an employee one whit more than they have to . Then they wonder why people don’t have any loyalty to their employer. Where’s the return side? Where’s the non-fiscal side of it? Why do companies insist their employees treat them better than they treat those same employees?

  50. I think companies are not yet realizing the shortage that is arising.

    But I agree it is amzing that companies are growing by leaps and bounds in spite of their HR incompetencies…

    Because the shortage is a myth. What they don’t want to do is commit to an employee one whit more than they have to . Then they wonder why people don’t have any loyalty to their employer. Where’s the return side? Where’s the non-fiscal side of it? Why do companies insist their employees treat them better than they treat those same employees?

  51. Thats very true John – sad but true… Employees are just a number these days…. There is no loyalty any more….

  52. Thats very true John – sad but true… Employees are just a number these days…. There is no loyalty any more….

  53. “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now”

    Another option is an attempt to find Angel investors in your geo location as someone us cannot move due to aspects of taking care of aging parents and etc.

  54. “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now”

    Another option is an attempt to find Angel investors in your geo location as someone us cannot move due to aspects of taking care of aging parents and etc.

  55. “Another option is an attempt to find Angel investors in your geo location”

    Two things come to mind when I see this:

    1. I’ve been told it before: when someone in my age range wants a job, what we need to do is start a built-to-flip company. No one will hire you on the open market, but they will buy your company, and then you’ve got what you actually want. It was the first time I’d ever heard anything that made sense of too many of the me-too SiliVally startups.

    2. Whoops; even that won’t work any more. Here’s a quote from the recent Steven Levy article in Newsweek, A Boot Camp for the Next Tech Billionaires: “The old wisdom for investors in start-ups said you needed an experienced hand as a CEO. The Valley’s new wisdom: don’t fund anyone over 30.”

    When I turned 30, the Web didn’t even exist yet.

  56. “Another option is an attempt to find Angel investors in your geo location”

    Two things come to mind when I see this:

    1. I’ve been told it before: when someone in my age range wants a job, what we need to do is start a built-to-flip company. No one will hire you on the open market, but they will buy your company, and then you’ve got what you actually want. It was the first time I’d ever heard anything that made sense of too many of the me-too SiliVally startups.

    2. Whoops; even that won’t work any more. Here’s a quote from the recent Steven Levy article in Newsweek, A Boot Camp for the Next Tech Billionaires: “The old wisdom for investors in start-ups said you needed an experienced hand as a CEO. The Valley’s new wisdom: don’t fund anyone over 30.”

    When I turned 30, the Web didn’t even exist yet.

  57. Welcome to the wonderful world of tech, where, on your 40th birthday, you get your very own ice floe and a lovely mug of hemlock, so you can clear your ass out and make room for the people who really count.

  58. Welcome to the wonderful world of tech, where, on your 40th birthday, you get your very own ice floe and a lovely mug of hemlock, so you can clear your ass out and make room for the people who really count.

  59. *raises hand* I’m an over-40 marketer living in the valley who has been trying for months to get a job.

    Getting anyone to talk to me is a huge struggle. I honestly am starting to think that once they see the year I graduated college on my resume, I head into the roundfile. Do not pass go, do not even get a call from a screener.

    And yes, I have though about taking that piece of data off my resume, but doesn’t that just send the same message?

  60. *raises hand* I’m an over-40 marketer living in the valley who has been trying for months to get a job.

    Getting anyone to talk to me is a huge struggle. I honestly am starting to think that once they see the year I graduated college on my resume, I head into the roundfile. Do not pass go, do not even get a call from a screener.

    And yes, I have though about taking that piece of data off my resume, but doesn’t that just send the same message?

  61. #33: why be anonymous? Where’s your blog? Where’s the evidence that you’re participating online and sharing your knowledge? That’d help me help you get hired.

  62. #33: why be anonymous? Where’s your blog? Where’s the evidence that you’re participating online and sharing your knowledge? That’d help me help you get hired.

  63. #33: why be anonymous? Where’s your blog? Where’s the evidence that you’re participating online and sharing your knowledge? That’d help me help you get hired.

    Thank you for showing just how fucked up the job market is.

    Doesn’t matter what kind of experience this guy has. Doesn’t matter what his knowledge is. The ONLY thing you care about is “OMGHEDOESN’THAVETEHBLOGGGGG”.

    When the only way you can get a job is via backchannels, there’s something very wrong.

  64. #33: why be anonymous? Where’s your blog? Where’s the evidence that you’re participating online and sharing your knowledge? That’d help me help you get hired.

    Thank you for showing just how fucked up the job market is.

    Doesn’t matter what kind of experience this guy has. Doesn’t matter what his knowledge is. The ONLY thing you care about is “OMGHEDOESN’THAVETEHBLOGGGGG”.

    When the only way you can get a job is via backchannels, there’s something very wrong.

  65. Thanks for the kind offer, Robert.

    I do, in fact, have a blog, but have been feeling so down about my job issues lately that the blog has suffered. I’d rather not link to it when I’m not bringing my A-game to the site; the last thing I need is more rejection right now.

    I appreciate the thought, though.

  66. Thanks for the kind offer, Robert.

    I do, in fact, have a blog, but have been feeling so down about my job issues lately that the blog has suffered. I’d rather not link to it when I’m not bringing my A-game to the site; the last thing I need is more rejection right now.

    I appreciate the thought, though.

  67. #36, it doesn’t matter what game you’re bring to the table. I’ve had extremely difficult times in life and you know what? Most people have had a poor area of their life at some point or another.

    My blog is full of rejection, people disagree with me continually but hell that’s the only way I learn right? Get into the mentality where rejection is a good thing. Go to interviews for jobs you don’t want that you can laugh through and realise where your assets are because everyone has them.

  68. #36, it doesn’t matter what game you’re bring to the table. I’ve had extremely difficult times in life and you know what? Most people have had a poor area of their life at some point or another.

    My blog is full of rejection, people disagree with me continually but hell that’s the only way I learn right? Get into the mentality where rejection is a good thing. Go to interviews for jobs you don’t want that you can laugh through and realise where your assets are because everyone has them.

  69. Robert, I’ve had Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft attempt to ‘recruit’ me, usually because someone has pushed them to try. I was treated indifferently, and quizzed like a new College graduate.

    I’m also with Dori: people are not breaking down the doors of middle aged women geeks. And I’ve got 15 books under my belt.

    Of course, I’m also critical, which is also an effective career killer.

    John: “When the only way you can get a job is via backchannels, there’s something very wrong.”

    That is very, very correct, because that implies we have to run around, sucking up to folk in order to get a job. What does that say about us being able to be critical?

    I wish wouldn’t write such things about how easy it is to get gigs or jobs in the tech industry in the states, because its only easy for some folk, not all.

    (Now I wait people coming along saying how those with skill have no problems…)

  70. Robert, I’ve had Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft attempt to ‘recruit’ me, usually because someone has pushed them to try. I was treated indifferently, and quizzed like a new College graduate.

    I’m also with Dori: people are not breaking down the doors of middle aged women geeks. And I’ve got 15 books under my belt.

    Of course, I’m also critical, which is also an effective career killer.

    John: “When the only way you can get a job is via backchannels, there’s something very wrong.”

    That is very, very correct, because that implies we have to run around, sucking up to folk in order to get a job. What does that say about us being able to be critical?

    I wish wouldn’t write such things about how easy it is to get gigs or jobs in the tech industry in the states, because its only easy for some folk, not all.

    (Now I wait people coming along saying how those with skill have no problems…)

  71. Sorry, typo: I wish _people_ wouldn’t write such things about how easy it is to get gigs or jobs in the tech industry in the states, because its only easy for some folk, not all.

  72. Sorry, typo: I wish _people_ wouldn’t write such things about how easy it is to get gigs or jobs in the tech industry in the states, because its only easy for some folk, not all.

  73. We’re trying to hire. We don’t have an HR department. I’m not a recruiter. We want good programmers: we don’t care if you are 24 or 54. We want you to be smart, mature, and easy to work with. It will be the best job you’ve ever had.

    We’re not in the Valley, we’re in Massachusetts. That’s the catch, I suppose. But, having spent a lot of time in Mountain View and Palo Alto, I can’t imagine why you actually want to live there. How boring is perfect weather 24/7/365? ;-)

    Bill, chief architect, kayak.com, the awesomest travel web site in the world.

  74. We’re trying to hire. We don’t have an HR department. I’m not a recruiter. We want good programmers: we don’t care if you are 24 or 54. We want you to be smart, mature, and easy to work with. It will be the best job you’ve ever had.

    We’re not in the Valley, we’re in Massachusetts. That’s the catch, I suppose. But, having spent a lot of time in Mountain View and Palo Alto, I can’t imagine why you actually want to live there. How boring is perfect weather 24/7/365? ;-)

    Bill, chief architect, kayak.com, the awesomest travel web site in the world.

  75. Well Bill, you’re limiting your hiring to a rather small area of the country, which limits you, since having lived in the Boston area for some time, I can tell you that the programmer’s job won’t attract many people from even RI or CT, much less New York.

    It’s also obvious that helping with relocation’s not an option, so even if someone outside that area heard about the job and would be interested, why would they waste their time applying?

  76. Well Bill, you’re limiting your hiring to a rather small area of the country, which limits you, since having lived in the Boston area for some time, I can tell you that the programmer’s job won’t attract many people from even RI or CT, much less New York.

    It’s also obvious that helping with relocation’s not an option, so even if someone outside that area heard about the job and would be interested, why would they waste their time applying?

  77. Robert,

    I have to echo Dori and #33. If you have any grey hairs (in my case in my beard), finding a job even in the Bay Area is tough. 15+ years of experience doesn’t count for much, unless you know the right people, or had a big hit in the past.

    So it is a little glib of you to say “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now,” although we don’t always advertise it.

    Thanks,
    Anonymous Coward (has a once popular blog, talked to you a week or so ago), but doesn’t want a record of this whine attached to his name by Google.

  78. Robert,

    I have to echo Dori and #33. If you have any grey hairs (in my case in my beard), finding a job even in the Bay Area is tough. 15+ years of experience doesn’t count for much, unless you know the right people, or had a big hit in the past.

    So it is a little glib of you to say “I don’t know anyone who isn’t fully employed right now,” although we don’t always advertise it.

    Thanks,
    Anonymous Coward (has a once popular blog, talked to you a week or so ago), but doesn’t want a record of this whine attached to his name by Google.

  79. I’m 46 years old. I have BS and MS degrees from MIT and UCLA, respectively. I have over 20 years of experience in the computer industry. However, I’ve been out of work for 16 months (twice!), and haven’t had a full-time permanent position since I was laid off by Yahoo! in 2004. (I was actually part of AltaVista, which Overture had acquired a few months before Yahoo! acquired it.)

    I’ve had similar experiences as Dori, Shelley, John Welch, and a few of the others who’ve posted here. I’ve attributed my problems in the past to things like a lowish undergraduate GPA, some gaps in (IQ-type) problem solving, not having worked on a key technology project since 1996, and some other things, but I’ve started to come to the conclusion that the interviews are designed to cause people like me to look poor, thus bolstering the hype that there is a shortage of qualified software engineers.

    I’ve encountered the same types of problems interviewing at Google that others have cited. For example, during one phone screen, I was asked what the options to tcpdump were to print out DNS packets. I couldn’t remember, because frankly, I’ve never had to memorize that. I use man pages for that sort of thing. No manager or coworker ever demanded that I quote something like that from memory. In a more recent experience, the interviewer never called, and I haven’t heard back from the contact about rescheduling. This is inconsistent with the claim that there is a dire shortage of qualified people, because if there were, Google would not risk losing a qualified person because of a missed interview. The irony of this is that I live so close to the ‘plex that if given an offer, I could sign the papers within an hour and start working.

  80. I’m 46 years old. I have BS and MS degrees from MIT and UCLA, respectively. I have over 20 years of experience in the computer industry. However, I’ve been out of work for 16 months (twice!), and haven’t had a full-time permanent position since I was laid off by Yahoo! in 2004. (I was actually part of AltaVista, which Overture had acquired a few months before Yahoo! acquired it.)

    I’ve had similar experiences as Dori, Shelley, John Welch, and a few of the others who’ve posted here. I’ve attributed my problems in the past to things like a lowish undergraduate GPA, some gaps in (IQ-type) problem solving, not having worked on a key technology project since 1996, and some other things, but I’ve started to come to the conclusion that the interviews are designed to cause people like me to look poor, thus bolstering the hype that there is a shortage of qualified software engineers.

    I’ve encountered the same types of problems interviewing at Google that others have cited. For example, during one phone screen, I was asked what the options to tcpdump were to print out DNS packets. I couldn’t remember, because frankly, I’ve never had to memorize that. I use man pages for that sort of thing. No manager or coworker ever demanded that I quote something like that from memory. In a more recent experience, the interviewer never called, and I haven’t heard back from the contact about rescheduling. This is inconsistent with the claim that there is a dire shortage of qualified people, because if there were, Google would not risk losing a qualified person because of a missed interview. The irony of this is that I live so close to the ‘plex that if given an offer, I could sign the papers within an hour and start working.

  81. I was contacted by a recruiter on July 1st. Phone interview was set up for July 5th. I never received a call. The following week, after 2 emails inquiring why I never received the call, I was told that they had a hectic week due to the week of the 4th. Two weeks have now passed and I still have not gotten the call or the email of gentle let-down. A couple of reminder emails to the intial contact have not received a reply.

    I am beginning to question the professionalism & quality assurance in Google’s HR processes. The comments here definitely serve to reaffirm this notion.

    Scouring blogs (via Google Blog Search, no less) resulted in many similar stories– sounds to me like Google needs to retool this process before they start causing bad breath in too many capable folks who are active in the blogosphere.

  82. I was contacted by a recruiter on July 1st. Phone interview was set up for July 5th. I never received a call. The following week, after 2 emails inquiring why I never received the call, I was told that they had a hectic week due to the week of the 4th. Two weeks have now passed and I still have not gotten the call or the email of gentle let-down. A couple of reminder emails to the intial contact have not received a reply.

    I am beginning to question the professionalism & quality assurance in Google’s HR processes. The comments here definitely serve to reaffirm this notion.

    Scouring blogs (via Google Blog Search, no less) resulted in many similar stories– sounds to me like Google needs to retool this process before they start causing bad breath in too many capable folks who are active in the blogosphere.