Why are some bloggers turning on Apple?

I’m seeing more and more anti-Apple blogs lately like the one Dave Winer posted yesterday. Why is that?

Well, Apple is getting bigger and bigger and our attitude is changing. Seven years ago Apple was a cute company that was in severe trouble. People generally like rooting for the underdog. Microsoft was (and still is, really) on top so it was fun rooting against Microsoft and for the company with 4% market share.

Then they started doing stuff we liked. The stores? Sheer genius. iPods? Finally we had a great player for our MP3 collections (which many of the geeks I knew had started collecting in the mid 1990s). Macs? Moved to Intel chips. Finally we could use Windows and whatever weird OS Apple produced on the same machine. Speaking of that weird OS. Back in the 1990s it was pretty damn buggy. I remember making fun of Steve Broback cause he was an Apple freak and his Mac seemed to crash every few minutes. Compare to NT4 and Microsoft was way ahead back then. But then they brought out OSX, which was based on Unix. Overnight it seemed like my friends who were Linux geeks switched over to OSX.

Now those geeks have to wait in line at Apple stores just to get machines fixed. My son today went to a Genius bar and had to wait until 8 p.m. to get help. That didn’t used to be the case.

Add in that even Dell has bloggers and has a team of people dedicated to building relationships with bloggers while Apple employees aren’t even allowed to talk with you if you’re a blogger at the iPhone Dev Camps (at least they aren’t allowed to identify themselves as being an Apple employee).

But back to Dave Winer’s post. It’s totally ridiculous to charge $160 for a drive that costs $90 elsewhere and then force the buyer to give over his old hard drive. Freaking amazing.

So much for the brand promise of Apple.

On the other hand, when my son’s iPod battery died they gave him a new iPod without asking too many questions. That was pretty cool.

Anyway, is your opinion of Apple changing lately? Or do you think they have nothing to worry about?

Comments

  1. I don’t think it’s either/or: My opinion of Apple is changing, yet I think they have nothing to worry about. That said, I’ve definitely noticed that Apple zealots aren’t what they used to be. Five years ago I published test results that a new iMac was slower than an old PC at Web surfing. I got 100-plus emails including several crazy threats. That was pretty standard fanboy behavior back then. Nowadays I pick on Apple all the time, but get nary a peep. I think no one feels Apple is some endangered species any more. But I also think it’s because everyone’s had a couple of disappointing experiences with the new consumery Apple. They’re not the Mac company any more. They’re the iPod/iPhone company now.

    I have no idea why I’m posting this earnestly on your blog.

  2. I don’t think it’s either/or: My opinion of Apple is changing, yet I think they have nothing to worry about. That said, I’ve definitely noticed that Apple zealots aren’t what they used to be. Five years ago I published test results that a new iMac was slower than an old PC at Web surfing. I got 100-plus emails including several crazy threats. That was pretty standard fanboy behavior back then. Nowadays I pick on Apple all the time, but get nary a peep. I think no one feels Apple is some endangered species any more. But I also think it’s because everyone’s had a couple of disappointing experiences with the new consumery Apple. They’re not the Mac company any more. They’re the iPod/iPhone company now.

    I have no idea why I’m posting this earnestly on your blog.

  3. I never liked Apple; pretty much from the moment I discovered I had to install iTunes to use an iPod properly. I don’t like hardware that locks me into using some piece of software.

  4. I never liked Apple; pretty much from the moment I discovered I had to install iTunes to use an iPod properly. I don’t like hardware that locks me into using some piece of software.

  5. My feeling on this is that a lot of people write these things in the heat of the moment when they are upset that something isn’t working or broke on them. This is obviously true of many things beyond Apple products, the difference I think being that most people when they are done complaining about them, keep on using Apple products.

    I was once a loyal PC user but about 2 years ago switched over to a Mac after being “forced” to use one at work. I now have 4 Macs and 0 PCs, I will never go back again. There have been a few hiccups on the road, but never anything near the problems I used to have with my various PCs.

    Similar to your story, my girlfriends fairly new MacBook was getting horrible battery times after full recharges so she took it in and they gave her a new battery no-charge and even replaced her keyboard because she thought it was “dirty”.

    Point is there are going to be bad and good stories for any product/company but at the end of the day most people are going to stick with what is best. At this point in time that is simply still Apple.

    I predict a 180 attitude shift if Apple announces their “MacBook Nano” in a few weeks at MacWorld. Bandwagon will be full again.

  6. My feeling on this is that a lot of people write these things in the heat of the moment when they are upset that something isn’t working or broke on them. This is obviously true of many things beyond Apple products, the difference I think being that most people when they are done complaining about them, keep on using Apple products.

    I was once a loyal PC user but about 2 years ago switched over to a Mac after being “forced” to use one at work. I now have 4 Macs and 0 PCs, I will never go back again. There have been a few hiccups on the road, but never anything near the problems I used to have with my various PCs.

    Similar to your story, my girlfriends fairly new MacBook was getting horrible battery times after full recharges so she took it in and they gave her a new battery no-charge and even replaced her keyboard because she thought it was “dirty”.

    Point is there are going to be bad and good stories for any product/company but at the end of the day most people are going to stick with what is best. At this point in time that is simply still Apple.

    I predict a 180 attitude shift if Apple announces their “MacBook Nano” in a few weeks at MacWorld. Bandwagon will be full again.

  7. “Anyway, is your opinion of Apple changing lately? Or do you think they have nothing to worry about?”

    You’re assuming everyone who reads this is already an Apple fan. :) I got my first Mac in April; fortunately it hasn’t broke yet.

  8. “Anyway, is your opinion of Apple changing lately? Or do you think they have nothing to worry about?”

    You’re assuming everyone who reads this is already an Apple fan. :) I got my first Mac in April; fortunately it hasn’t broke yet.

  9. Just wondering if your son made an apointment online before he showed up and still had to wait, or if he just showed up at the store? I use to work at an Apple store and I think its a little weird people expect to just be able to walk up and get tech service instantly, they are obviously a very popular store and its why they have an appointment system set up. I also think people forget that where can you walk into a local store and get face to face help with your Dell or your Zune?

  10. Just wondering if your son made an apointment online before he showed up and still had to wait, or if he just showed up at the store? I use to work at an Apple store and I think its a little weird people expect to just be able to walk up and get tech service instantly, they are obviously a very popular store and its why they have an appointment system set up. I also think people forget that where can you walk into a local store and get face to face help with your Dell or your Zune?

  11. What’s with that little picture ? Looks like someone cut off half of your fingers! Oh, yeah, about Apple…It’s just statistics.

  12. What’s with that little picture ? Looks like someone cut off half of your fingers! Oh, yeah, about Apple…It’s just statistics.

  13. I’ve had nothing but good luck. One of the few times I’ve needed service, bad battery, they replaced it without question or even really looking at it.
    As far as Dave, he seems to have trouble with dang near ever tech item he buys, especially drives and is vocal about everything, not just his Macs so I take his complaining with a grain of salt and even have to chuckle at times (sorry Dave). I have many friends/relatives (half recent converts) and none have had any problems and are tickled pink that their Macs just work.
    So, no, I don’t think they really have much to worry about. There will be a vocal minority though I guess. And nobody but us even know who Dave Winer is.

  14. I’ve had nothing but good luck. One of the few times I’ve needed service, bad battery, they replaced it without question or even really looking at it.
    As far as Dave, he seems to have trouble with dang near ever tech item he buys, especially drives and is vocal about everything, not just his Macs so I take his complaining with a grain of salt and even have to chuckle at times (sorry Dave). I have many friends/relatives (half recent converts) and none have had any problems and are tickled pink that their Macs just work.
    So, no, I don’t think they really have much to worry about. There will be a vocal minority though I guess. And nobody but us even know who Dave Winer is.

  15. I think consistency needs to improve. It doesn’t sound good when one person is reporting a terrible story, while another is having an awesome experience.

    Clashing stories make me want to crawl under a rock. Ultimately, I hope for the best.

    I’d like a Mac so I can at least have first hand experiences like this.

  16. I think consistency needs to improve. It doesn’t sound good when one person is reporting a terrible story, while another is having an awesome experience.

    Clashing stories make me want to crawl under a rock. Ultimately, I hope for the best.

    I’d like a Mac so I can at least have first hand experiences like this.

  17. Just want to add…Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. And thanks for the blog and links Robert. Even though I don’t always agree with you I appreciate your work and pointers!!!!!

  18. Just want to add…Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. And thanks for the blog and links Robert. Even though I don’t always agree with you I appreciate your work and pointers!!!!!

  19. Hmm. My attitude is changing, but not because of the service. The main reason for a change is Apple’s policy of closing it’s products from it’s users: iTunes & DRM, iPhone & AT&T, iPhone again & no user apps, etc. I don’t like it at all.

    But their products are still the best, so I’m buying them anyway. And I don’t think that Apple need to worry, it’s not line there is any good alternative for their products. The problem is that without the concurention it’s also unlikely that Apple will change it’s closeness policy anytime soon.

  20. Hmm. My attitude is changing, but not because of the service. The main reason for a change is Apple’s policy of closing it’s products from it’s users: iTunes & DRM, iPhone & AT&T, iPhone again & no user apps, etc. I don’t like it at all.

    But their products are still the best, so I’m buying them anyway. And I don’t think that Apple need to worry, it’s not line there is any good alternative for their products. The problem is that without the concurention it’s also unlikely that Apple will change it’s closeness policy anytime soon.

  21. how many of you are going to switch back? none, i guess. you like the product and dealing with the sh*tty support is not a real motive to quit apple. for now. wait a year or two.

  22. how many of you are going to switch back? none, i guess. you like the product and dealing with the sh*tty support is not a real motive to quit apple. for now. wait a year or two.

  23. When you say “some” are turning on Apple, my guess is there are a even bigger group out there getting into Apple.

    I was a Windows User for 8 years, but after using Mac for 2 months, I totally love it. Not mainly because of the design but also the convenience in controlling apps and stability, not forgetting the good user-interface too. I think that’s some undeniable facts.

    It really helps saving time in executions, and btw, I’m a web developer/designer.

  24. When you say “some” are turning on Apple, my guess is there are a even bigger group out there getting into Apple.

    I was a Windows User for 8 years, but after using Mac for 2 months, I totally love it. Not mainly because of the design but also the convenience in controlling apps and stability, not forgetting the good user-interface too. I think that’s some undeniable facts.

    It really helps saving time in executions, and btw, I’m a web developer/designer.

  25. Michael Long: “I guess Stan doesn’t use too many printers or scanners or other peripherals…”

    Most peripherals that come with software often tries to make the impression you _need_ to use it, but you don’t. In most of the cases it is just to plug it in to get the “New Hardware” dialog, then point to e.g. the CD for the peripheral’s pure driver.
    Often it is just easier to install the software, then block it from booting.

  26. Michael Long: “I guess Stan doesn’t use too many printers or scanners or other peripherals…”

    Most peripherals that come with software often tries to make the impression you _need_ to use it, but you don’t. In most of the cases it is just to plug it in to get the “New Hardware” dialog, then point to e.g. the CD for the peripheral’s pure driver.
    Often it is just easier to install the software, then block it from booting.

  27. Had an iPod, it died about a month before the warranty expired. It cost me 29.99 for a replacement (shipping?). I was satisfied but not ecstatic. Their products are way overpriced to begin with. When I buy one of their over-priced products I feel like I’m paying for the customer service and warranty. IMO they better get it right or their value proposition isn’t there.

  28. Had an iPod, it died about a month before the warranty expired. It cost me 29.99 for a replacement (shipping?). I was satisfied but not ecstatic. Their products are way overpriced to begin with. When I buy one of their over-priced products I feel like I’m paying for the customer service and warranty. IMO they better get it right or their value proposition isn’t there.

  29. Apple is screwing their customers over a lot lately, and its easy to see them self-destructing as they have before. Unfortunately there is no alternative for a desktop anymore. I have a Vista machine for games. It makes me ill to think of using it for anything else. Ubuntu is not quite there yet, but it’s closer than what comes out of Redmond.

  30. Apple is screwing their customers over a lot lately, and its easy to see them self-destructing as they have before. Unfortunately there is no alternative for a desktop anymore. I have a Vista machine for games. It makes me ill to think of using it for anything else. Ubuntu is not quite there yet, but it’s closer than what comes out of Redmond.

  31. I still love Apple brand, I think I own the best OS in the market. However, when facing their legal people, I think Apple is being too harsh with people with out thinking on the consequences. If they are going to send cease-and-desist letter to anyone that misspelled their name they are onto a challenge. That is the only thing I don’t like about this new Apple.

  32. I still love Apple brand, I think I own the best OS in the market. However, when facing their legal people, I think Apple is being too harsh with people with out thinking on the consequences. If they are going to send cease-and-desist letter to anyone that misspelled their name they are onto a challenge. That is the only thing I don’t like about this new Apple.

  33. Robert – I walked by the Apple store last night, and honestly had a negative feeling because of Dave’s story. That said, I am typing on a Mac right now, and cringe at the experience of spending so much time on a PC.

    So… perhaps our feelings on Apple the company change, but our feelings about their products won’t.

    I drew a little cartoon about Dan Lyon’s episodes with “apple lawyers” that you might appreciate:

    http://danblank.com/blog/2007/12/23/the-death-of-apples-brand-promise/

    Thanks!
    -Dan

  34. Robert – I walked by the Apple store last night, and honestly had a negative feeling because of Dave’s story. That said, I am typing on a Mac right now, and cringe at the experience of spending so much time on a PC.

    So… perhaps our feelings on Apple the company change, but our feelings about their products won’t.

    I drew a little cartoon about Dan Lyon’s episodes with “apple lawyers” that you might appreciate:

    http://danblank.com/blog/2007/12/23/the-death-of-apples-brand-promise/

    Thanks!
    -Dan

  35. Recent experience has been wonderful.

    My mother a few weeks ago sent in her MacBook because a small piece of the case edge broke off and her SuperDrive died.

    She sent it out Thursday morning by FedEx using a box Apple sent her. By Friday afternoon (yes, just over 24 hours later) FedEx attempted to deliver the MacBook, but couldn’t because no one was home. Delivery was attempted again on Saturday and succeeded.

    So in just over 24 hours, the MacBook had its issues fixed and practically on her doorstep. Granted she had AppleCare coverage, but in the past my experience was that it took usually took a week or so for any repairs to be made. 24 hour repair time (including shipping to and from my mom’s house) without physically bringing it to an Apple Store? Unheard of. Not even Dell does that.

    I remember buying a laptop from BestBuy and having to have it repaired…it took 4 weeks. Then I got it back, found out it wasn’t completely repaired, and had to send it back out for another 4 weeks.

    If Apple keeps up with these 24 hour to a week repair times via. Mail, I will keep buying their computers.

  36. Recent experience has been wonderful.

    My mother a few weeks ago sent in her MacBook because a small piece of the case edge broke off and her SuperDrive died.

    She sent it out Thursday morning by FedEx using a box Apple sent her. By Friday afternoon (yes, just over 24 hours later) FedEx attempted to deliver the MacBook, but couldn’t because no one was home. Delivery was attempted again on Saturday and succeeded.

    So in just over 24 hours, the MacBook had its issues fixed and practically on her doorstep. Granted she had AppleCare coverage, but in the past my experience was that it took usually took a week or so for any repairs to be made. 24 hour repair time (including shipping to and from my mom’s house) without physically bringing it to an Apple Store? Unheard of. Not even Dell does that.

    I remember buying a laptop from BestBuy and having to have it repaired…it took 4 weeks. Then I got it back, found out it wasn’t completely repaired, and had to send it back out for another 4 weeks.

    If Apple keeps up with these 24 hour to a week repair times via. Mail, I will keep buying their computers.

  37. I forgot to mention also the time when I needed a new battery, as my Macbook only held a charge for 1 hour. Called Apple and even though battery replacement is not covered by AppleCare (which is something I did not know), the nice lady said that a battery shouldn’t die within 1 year and offered a free replacement. No obligation according to their warranty and they did it anyways.

  38. I forgot to mention also the time when I needed a new battery, as my Macbook only held a charge for 1 hour. Called Apple and even though battery replacement is not covered by AppleCare (which is something I did not know), the nice lady said that a battery shouldn’t die within 1 year and offered a free replacement. No obligation according to their warranty and they did it anyways.

  39. Apple has emerged to become a truly great company, with beautifully-designed products (although quality is another issue).

    But what annoys the rest of the population, i.e., those who aren’t platinum members of the ‘give-me-apple-or-give-me-an-incredibly-painful-death’ club is the arrogance of Jobs and company — and their vast networks of journalist friends.

    So, for the rest of us, it’s very nice to see the tide occasionally turn.

    Gene from ZuneChannel.com

  40. Apple has emerged to become a truly great company, with beautifully-designed products (although quality is another issue).

    But what annoys the rest of the population, i.e., those who aren’t platinum members of the ‘give-me-apple-or-give-me-an-incredibly-painful-death’ club is the arrogance of Jobs and company — and their vast networks of journalist friends.

    So, for the rest of us, it’s very nice to see the tide occasionally turn.

    Gene from ZuneChannel.com

  41. Is there an uptick in anti-Apple blogging/reporting? I hadn’t noticed. But the way of it is pretty obvious: it drives the clicks. Dvorak is the best at it: Write up something stupid about Apple, Macs, OS X, or iPods and it is guaranteed to drive visitors to the site. How hard is that to understand, haven’t you used it in the past?

  42. Is there an uptick in anti-Apple blogging/reporting? I hadn’t noticed. But the way of it is pretty obvious: it drives the clicks. Dvorak is the best at it: Write up something stupid about Apple, Macs, OS X, or iPods and it is guaranteed to drive visitors to the site. How hard is that to understand, haven’t you used it in the past?

  43. Robert,

    The bigger they are the more people won’t like them. There have always been Apple customers that don’t like them. Now there are more of them and they have a platform known as the blogosphere that didn’t exist in the past.

    Apple is a large company to and will continue to have customers that are unhappy with them. I used to work in an Apple specialist and you would be surprised what people expect from a computer company. They expect their computer to never break and you to fix it for free even if they break it. People are constantly pulling scams to get stuff fixed

    Last comment. Sorry Patrick had to wait in line at the Apple store. Why didn’t he just go to the Dell store or the Microsoft store…. ;-)

  44. Robert,

    The bigger they are the more people won’t like them. There have always been Apple customers that don’t like them. Now there are more of them and they have a platform known as the blogosphere that didn’t exist in the past.

    Apple is a large company to and will continue to have customers that are unhappy with them. I used to work in an Apple specialist and you would be surprised what people expect from a computer company. They expect their computer to never break and you to fix it for free even if they break it. People are constantly pulling scams to get stuff fixed

    Last comment. Sorry Patrick had to wait in line at the Apple store. Why didn’t he just go to the Dell store or the Microsoft store…. ;-)

  45. The only Apple product I’ve ever bought is an Ipod, and I’m on my fourth one. But I’ve only paid for two of them. The first one I bought, and about 30 days later the plastic ring around the cable slot had fallen out so you couldn’t reliably charge it. I took it back to the apple store I bought it at, and they tried to tell me that I must have abused it, and thus it wasn’t covered. At which point I explained to them that they had two choices, replace it under warranty or I’d charge it back. They were getting that one back – their choice was whether or not to retain me as a customer.

    So they replaced it, grudgingly. And then about 2 months out of warranty it died. But I was basically locked in on it, so I bought another one. And on that one the drive died about 30 days later. But at least they replaced that one under warranty without hassling me.

    So from my perspective, the quality is crappy, and the service has been so-so. I can’t imagine paying their PC markup for something of that quality.

    Right now #4 is still going strong, although the battery life’s declining. But this time around if it dies I probably won’t buy another one. Because I’m locked in, not via itunes, but via audible.com. At the time I bought the ipod initially it was the only large capacity device that audible supported. Looking it appears there are a number of choices now. I just wish Zune would come out with support.

  46. The only Apple product I’ve ever bought is an Ipod, and I’m on my fourth one. But I’ve only paid for two of them. The first one I bought, and about 30 days later the plastic ring around the cable slot had fallen out so you couldn’t reliably charge it. I took it back to the apple store I bought it at, and they tried to tell me that I must have abused it, and thus it wasn’t covered. At which point I explained to them that they had two choices, replace it under warranty or I’d charge it back. They were getting that one back – their choice was whether or not to retain me as a customer.

    So they replaced it, grudgingly. And then about 2 months out of warranty it died. But I was basically locked in on it, so I bought another one. And on that one the drive died about 30 days later. But at least they replaced that one under warranty without hassling me.

    So from my perspective, the quality is crappy, and the service has been so-so. I can’t imagine paying their PC markup for something of that quality.

    Right now #4 is still going strong, although the battery life’s declining. But this time around if it dies I probably won’t buy another one. Because I’m locked in, not via itunes, but via audible.com. At the time I bought the ipod initially it was the only large capacity device that audible supported. Looking it appears there are a number of choices now. I just wish Zune would come out with support.

  47. Well, it’s only ‘some’ bloggers.

    The question is should we care what ‘some’ bloggers think?

    I say no. Bloggers are over-leveraged on the misinformation super highway, their information is anecdotal, and the topic is not that important in the grander scheme of things.

    Besides my personal experience outweighs yours. As long as a statistically significant number of consumer’s experiences with Apple products and services is positive, then your blogs don’t make a difference.

  48. Well, it’s only ‘some’ bloggers.

    The question is should we care what ‘some’ bloggers think?

    I say no. Bloggers are over-leveraged on the misinformation super highway, their information is anecdotal, and the topic is not that important in the grander scheme of things.

    Besides my personal experience outweighs yours. As long as a statistically significant number of consumer’s experiences with Apple products and services is positive, then your blogs don’t make a difference.

  49. This is all anecdotal evidence. Wait for the quarterly results on January 22 to see if they should worry. I suspect they are feeling pretty comfortable!

  50. This is all anecdotal evidence. Wait for the quarterly results on January 22 to see if they should worry. I suspect they are feeling pretty comfortable!

  51. Apple’s parts do seem pricey, their memory comes to mind. Dave seems most upset about the legalese he cited. It would be interesting to compare Apple’s fine print to Dell’s fine print for a fair comparison.

  52. Apple’s parts do seem pricey, their memory comes to mind. Dave seems most upset about the legalese he cited. It would be interesting to compare Apple’s fine print to Dell’s fine print for a fair comparison.

  53. My view of Apple has remained pretty consistent. They have always been an arrogant company. In the 90s, when I owned a PR firm, I tossed 12 Mac pizza boxes out and started over with Dell’s because Apple service was too obnoxious and frustrating to deal with. What has changed in recent years is that they, after the return of the real Steve Jobs, began building brilliant products, one after another. If your products are great enough, you can get away with arrogance. Go visit a BMW showroom. They treat you like dirt, because the car is so good and they sell like hotcakes. Think of the arrogance involved in calling tech support “the Genius Bar.” Apple will do just fine until it has a real problem, then they might find the reluctance to have real conversations with customers to be a problem.

  54. My view of Apple has remained pretty consistent. They have always been an arrogant company. In the 90s, when I owned a PR firm, I tossed 12 Mac pizza boxes out and started over with Dell’s because Apple service was too obnoxious and frustrating to deal with. What has changed in recent years is that they, after the return of the real Steve Jobs, began building brilliant products, one after another. If your products are great enough, you can get away with arrogance. Go visit a BMW showroom. They treat you like dirt, because the car is so good and they sell like hotcakes. Think of the arrogance involved in calling tech support “the Genius Bar.” Apple will do just fine until it has a real problem, then they might find the reluctance to have real conversations with customers to be a problem.

  55. My attitude isn’t changing. With more customers and partners, it’s getting harder and harder for Apple to keep up with expectations.

    My last interaction: The Apple genius unexpectedly replaced my out-of-warranty laptop keyboard for free.

  56. My attitude isn’t changing. With more customers and partners, it’s getting harder and harder for Apple to keep up with expectations.

    My last interaction: The Apple genius unexpectedly replaced my out-of-warranty laptop keyboard for free.

  57. One more thought based on what Paul said in #32: Altho I could qualify as a fanboy, I actually don’t mind people complaining about some Apple policy, as long as they are consistent and fair, and also point out other mfrs who do the exact same thing. On the whole, if this improves the industry (whether computer or consumer electronics), and it gets Apple to lead, I’m all for it. Just don’t say that Apple does this and NOT point out that it’s most likely the industry norm.

  58. One more thought based on what Paul said in #32: Altho I could qualify as a fanboy, I actually don’t mind people complaining about some Apple policy, as long as they are consistent and fair, and also point out other mfrs who do the exact same thing. On the whole, if this improves the industry (whether computer or consumer electronics), and it gets Apple to lead, I’m all for it. Just don’t say that Apple does this and NOT point out that it’s most likely the industry norm.

  59. The occasional blog rant means nothing. I’ll pay attention when Dave stops buying more Apple products. His rants usually are “Apple sucks, this sucks, they hate their customers. Oh, and I’m buying the next big thing they release.”

  60. The occasional blog rant means nothing. I’ll pay attention when Dave stops buying more Apple products. His rants usually are “Apple sucks, this sucks, they hate their customers. Oh, and I’m buying the next big thing they release.”

  61. People are starting to get nervous. Everyone downplayed Apple as a “Fad” and that it would fade. (iPod Halo effect). Apple didn’t fade, and instead got bigger. Not only did they get bigger, but they got better. Better products, better stores, better customer service. Apple is kicking butt, and the MSFT’ies are unhappy.

    I run a blog. I love Apple. Enough said.

  62. People are starting to get nervous. Everyone downplayed Apple as a “Fad” and that it would fade. (iPod Halo effect). Apple didn’t fade, and instead got bigger. Not only did they get bigger, but they got better. Better products, better stores, better customer service. Apple is kicking butt, and the MSFT’ies are unhappy.

    I run a blog. I love Apple. Enough said.

  63. One other comment here Robert – the overpriced HDD that Dave ordered *is* part of the brand promise of Apple. They are not, and never have been, anything but a high-price leader. I agree it’s a rip-off, but that is not inconsistent with their general pricing…

  64. One other comment here Robert – the overpriced HDD that Dave ordered *is* part of the brand promise of Apple. They are not, and never have been, anything but a high-price leader. I agree it’s a rip-off, but that is not inconsistent with their general pricing…

  65. One more thought. Would Dave have cared if the drive was in warranty and they replaced it for free? Dave is a smart guy, why would he do a dumb thing like pay $160 for a hard drive that he knew was way over priced?

    My brother had the same thing happen to him. They wanted $160 plus labor to replace his dead drive. I told him to just buy a hard drive somewhere else and toss it in yourself. It is really easy with the MacBook. So he bought a 250GB HD for about the same price as Apple wanted for the 100GB and he is happy to have more space. I may be naive but I would imagine Apple may want to capture bad drives so they can toss them back at the suppliers that supplied them.

    Most people buying Apples or BMWs know they pay more for the service and would see it as a hassle if they got their old parts back.

  66. One more thought. Would Dave have cared if the drive was in warranty and they replaced it for free? Dave is a smart guy, why would he do a dumb thing like pay $160 for a hard drive that he knew was way over priced?

    My brother had the same thing happen to him. They wanted $160 plus labor to replace his dead drive. I told him to just buy a hard drive somewhere else and toss it in yourself. It is really easy with the MacBook. So he bought a 250GB HD for about the same price as Apple wanted for the 100GB and he is happy to have more space. I may be naive but I would imagine Apple may want to capture bad drives so they can toss them back at the suppliers that supplied them.

    Most people buying Apples or BMWs know they pay more for the service and would see it as a hassle if they got their old parts back.

  67. Robert, did you all of a sudden forget that this the same Apple that was intentionally bricking users’ phones?

    The same one that pulled an about face when they staggeringly dropped the iPhone price and said ‘too bad’ until users called them on it?

    After some of these actions that have somewhat surprised their core base of supporters, I’m not sure why you’re so surprised that people are no longer blindly following them.

    They’re a bit more critical now because they’re realizing that Apple is as much a company as any other company out there.

  68. Robert, did you all of a sudden forget that this the same Apple that was intentionally bricking users’ phones?

    The same one that pulled an about face when they staggeringly dropped the iPhone price and said ‘too bad’ until users called them on it?

    After some of these actions that have somewhat surprised their core base of supporters, I’m not sure why you’re so surprised that people are no longer blindly following them.

    They’re a bit more critical now because they’re realizing that Apple is as much a company as any other company out there.

  69. Dave Winer’s issues with Apple go back a lot longer than the problem with his hard drive. In fact they go back a decade (or two). And most of it is well documented on Scripting News. Frankly, while he makes good points now and then, his antipathy towards the company (and others that offend him) led me to stop reading it years ago.

  70. Dave Winer’s issues with Apple go back a lot longer than the problem with his hard drive. In fact they go back a decade (or two). And most of it is well documented on Scripting News. Frankly, while he makes good points now and then, his antipathy towards the company (and others that offend him) led me to stop reading it years ago.

  71. Yawn. I guess the day is coming that everybody in the world will have a soapbox to complain from when something happens to them. It’s life. Grow up. Get over it. This is why blogs are now, and always be irrelevant. The writers can’t keep themselves out of the story.

  72. It stands to reason that if Apple has 2 to 3 times the market share in the USA, it must also have 2 to 3 times the problems. Add iPhones and iPods to the mix and the complaints could be 5 to 6 times what they used to be with no lowering whatsoever of quality control. No surprise there.

    As for waiting in line for a long time on the weekend before Christmas. Duh! Just been there, just done that.

  73. Yawn. I guess the day is coming that everybody in the world will have a soapbox to complain from when something happens to them. It’s life. Grow up. Get over it. This is why blogs are now, and always be irrelevant. The writers can’t keep themselves out of the story.

  74. It stands to reason that if Apple has 2 to 3 times the market share in the USA, it must also have 2 to 3 times the problems. Add iPhones and iPods to the mix and the complaints could be 5 to 6 times what they used to be with no lowering whatsoever of quality control. No surprise there.

    As for waiting in line for a long time on the weekend before Christmas. Duh! Just been there, just done that.

  75. By and large the people doing most of the complaining about Apple being arrogant are the same ones complaining a few years ago that Apple made toys, or Apple was too small, or Apple had no software or that Apple is too expensive.

    The nice thing about the market is that if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. If you buy it anyway, the nice thing about the USA (used to be anyway) is that you have the freedom to moan and state your opinion. You don’t have the right to be right, of course.

    I suppose I’ve had good luck over the past 23 years, having bought hundreds of macs for my computer labs, and a couple of dozen for myself, wife, kids and parents. The only real duds were three or four proforma machines in the 90s. There have been issues; dead hard drives, a couple of dodgy ethernet cards, a screen failure on a SE30 after ten years or so. I’ve also had good luck with Apple service when it was needed. Although I was never that impressed with service, I was much less impressed with service from our PC Clone suppliers.

    Over the long run, Apple listens to customers in the main way that matters to me, building systems that are powerful and easy to use that make it possible for me to advance my work.

    Its a bit harder when the ONE machine you buy is a dud or has some issues. It makes good sense to follow your experience and act on it in future. Fortunately these numbers are pretty small, so Apple (and my Apple stock) continue to soar.

  76. By and large the people doing most of the complaining about Apple being arrogant are the same ones complaining a few years ago that Apple made toys, or Apple was too small, or Apple had no software or that Apple is too expensive.

    The nice thing about the market is that if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. If you buy it anyway, the nice thing about the USA (used to be anyway) is that you have the freedom to moan and state your opinion. You don’t have the right to be right, of course.

    I suppose I’ve had good luck over the past 23 years, having bought hundreds of macs for my computer labs, and a couple of dozen for myself, wife, kids and parents. The only real duds were three or four proforma machines in the 90s. There have been issues; dead hard drives, a couple of dodgy ethernet cards, a screen failure on a SE30 after ten years or so. I’ve also had good luck with Apple service when it was needed. Although I was never that impressed with service, I was much less impressed with service from our PC Clone suppliers.

    Over the long run, Apple listens to customers in the main way that matters to me, building systems that are powerful and easy to use that make it possible for me to advance my work.

    Its a bit harder when the ONE machine you buy is a dud or has some issues. It makes good sense to follow your experience and act on it in future. Fortunately these numbers are pretty small, so Apple (and my Apple stock) continue to soar.

  77. For though that are saying “where is microsofts or dells support desk for computer issues” have you not heard of geek squad? Have you not driven down the street and seen all the countless computer repair shops that line the streets?

    Personally I think its funny that apples has to call their tech support “genious” does that mean everyone else who uses a mac is an idiot? Who wants to use a computer that reqiers a genious to fix it?

    Lastly shouldn’t it be mac vrs windows and not mac vrs pc? Doesn’t “pc” mean personal computer, which would apply to both macs and windows machines?

  78. For though that are saying “where is microsofts or dells support desk for computer issues” have you not heard of geek squad? Have you not driven down the street and seen all the countless computer repair shops that line the streets?

    Personally I think its funny that apples has to call their tech support “genious” does that mean everyone else who uses a mac is an idiot? Who wants to use a computer that reqiers a genious to fix it?

    Lastly shouldn’t it be mac vrs windows and not mac vrs pc? Doesn’t “pc” mean personal computer, which would apply to both macs and windows machines?

  79. Apple is still pretty happening, i’m a huge fan, there could charge a little less for their RAM, but other than that… wow what a year, iphone, new ipods, 10.5, time machine, spaces…

    some sour points are maybe the imac only has a glossy screen, DRM, and entourage isn’t what it could be, but who is to blame for that?

    i think Apple is as sweet as it ever was, it’s too bad think secret got the axe tho, and fake steve jobs had an interesting story yesterday, but on the whole, Apple has been great and even greater is the community that brings us together.

    Happy Holidays everyone!

  80. Apple is still pretty happening, i’m a huge fan, there could charge a little less for their RAM, but other than that… wow what a year, iphone, new ipods, 10.5, time machine, spaces…

    some sour points are maybe the imac only has a glossy screen, DRM, and entourage isn’t what it could be, but who is to blame for that?

    i think Apple is as sweet as it ever was, it’s too bad think secret got the axe tho, and fake steve jobs had an interesting story yesterday, but on the whole, Apple has been great and even greater is the community that brings us together.

    Happy Holidays everyone!

  81. Why are Scoble and Winer turning on Apple? Who knows?

    Maybe it’s because they don’t know you don’t have to wait in line for the Genius Bar…?

  82. I don’t like apple because:
    1) Does not support OpenOffice
    2) Does not offer any other office software solution for my needs
    3) A mac with the ability to burn DVDs costs twice as much than a PC.

  83. I don’t like apple because:
    1) Does not support OpenOffice
    2) Does not offer any other office software solution for my needs
    3) A mac with the ability to burn DVDs costs twice as much than a PC.

  84. Why are Scoble and Winer turning on Apple? Who knows?

    Maybe it’s because they don’t know you don’t have to wait in line for the Genius Bar…?

  85. Oh, and after reading Winer’s rant, it all boils down to him confusing 3.5″ hard drive prices with 2.5″ hard drive prices.

    A mistake.

    That he made.

    And Apple is supposed to be “responsive” to that in what way…?

  86. Oh, and after reading Winer’s rant, it all boils down to him confusing 3.5″ hard drive prices with 2.5″ hard drive prices.

    A mistake.

    That he made.

    And Apple is supposed to be “responsive” to that in what way…?

  87. [...] A lot of people wonder if Apple is in trouble because it is no longer the “underdog,” but only people over 30 think that way.  The under 30 crowd think of Apple as a cool company that built the iPod.  They listen to music and watch video on their iPods.  Go to almost anywhere kids 16-25 hang out with their laptops and you will see nearly as many or more white apple logos as you will HP or Dell logos put together. [...]

  88. Mac users were threatened between 1994 and 2002 by the prospect that Microsoft would destroy any market for their PC of choice. The same kind of defensive bitterness was expressed by Amiga users (like Paul Thurrott).

    Since Mac OS X blossomed and the iPod helped remove any fear that Apple would be put out of business by mainstream junk from Microsoft, Mac enthusiasts have lost their defensive bristle when pundits like John Dvoark attempt to rile them up.

    The new incessant whiners are Windows Enthusiasts who fear Apple will displace enough of Microsoft’s monopoly to loosen its stranglehold and allow a mass defection to Linux by the mainstream of PC users.

    Additionally, supporters of the Zune are at least as rabid as threatened Mac users back in the sad days of Apple. Remember that the worst Apple ever did was lose $1 billion on its consumer electronics business; Microsoft loses many billions every year on its consumer electronics, from Windows Mobile to the Zune to Windows Media to the Xbox. There’s great fear Microsoft will lose with great embarrassment, and it faces entrenched, profitable rivals that are kicking its ass, particularly: Nintendo and Apple.

    If you think there’s no fun left in taunting Mac users, try writing anything about the Zune that doesn’t vawn all over it. You will get the most absolutely foul and shrill hate mail of your career.

  89. Mac users were threatened between 1994 and 2002 by the prospect that Microsoft would destroy any market for their PC of choice. The same kind of defensive bitterness was expressed by Amiga users (like Paul Thurrott).

    Since Mac OS X blossomed and the iPod helped remove any fear that Apple would be put out of business by mainstream junk from Microsoft, Mac enthusiasts have lost their defensive bristle when pundits like John Dvoark attempt to rile them up.

    The new incessant whiners are Windows Enthusiasts who fear Apple will displace enough of Microsoft’s monopoly to loosen its stranglehold and allow a mass defection to Linux by the mainstream of PC users.

    Additionally, supporters of the Zune are at least as rabid as threatened Mac users back in the sad days of Apple. Remember that the worst Apple ever did was lose $1 billion on its consumer electronics business; Microsoft loses many billions every year on its consumer electronics, from Windows Mobile to the Zune to Windows Media to the Xbox. There’s great fear Microsoft will lose with great embarrassment, and it faces entrenched, profitable rivals that are kicking its ass, particularly: Nintendo and Apple.

    If you think there’s no fun left in taunting Mac users, try writing anything about the Zune that doesn’t vawn all over it. You will get the most absolutely foul and shrill hate mail of your career.

  90. As a Mac buyer and user for the last 20 years (I’ve bought about 50-60), I’ve found their products to be very durable and have long service life.

    I just now, finally tossed out an old purple tray loading iMac. The thing was more than 8 years old. It still works, but it only had a .75 GB hard drive. It ran OSX 10.2.9 pretty well though.

    We used it as a print serve until we had a faster machine to do so.

    We use our Macs 10 hours a day M-F for about 46 weeks a year, plus a few overtime days and Saturdays. They get a real work out. We do desktop publishing, web design, photography and video production – all with the same off the shelf machine. How many “off the shelf” Dells or HPs can do the same? For the same price? No upgraded video cards, firewire ports, etc.

    And Macs just work. We use Canon, Nikon, HP, Iomega, Sandisk and several other major brands and some minor brands of cameras, drives, cards, etc. and usually without drivers. Just plug them in. They work.

    Yes, out of probably 50 plus machines in 20 years – I’ve called tech support once. I had a Mac Mini that wouldn’t start – right out of the box. On the phone for only 5 min., they got it started up.

    I’ve had three macs just die after more than three years of service (kernel panic) and many more die after more than five years of service. I’ve lost two modems and a hard drive due to electrical storms, but the Macs kept on working.

    I have two G4 towers that are about 8 years old. They have been rebuilt about three times. They started with 256 MB of RAM, now have over 1 GB and twice upgraded from regular CD drives to CDR drives and now DVD/CDR drives. They keep on ticking.

    Apple has grown a little too fast, and that has diluted its quality of product and support. But all companies that grow go through it. It is hard to keep up quality in rapid periods of growth.

    But Apple still has the best product in the computer market for out of the box quality.

    Mr. C

  91. As a Mac buyer and user for the last 20 years (I’ve bought about 50-60), I’ve found their products to be very durable and have long service life.

    I just now, finally tossed out an old purple tray loading iMac. The thing was more than 8 years old. It still works, but it only had a .75 GB hard drive. It ran OSX 10.2.9 pretty well though.

    We used it as a print serve until we had a faster machine to do so.

    We use our Macs 10 hours a day M-F for about 46 weeks a year, plus a few overtime days and Saturdays. They get a real work out. We do desktop publishing, web design, photography and video production – all with the same off the shelf machine. How many “off the shelf” Dells or HPs can do the same? For the same price? No upgraded video cards, firewire ports, etc.

    And Macs just work. We use Canon, Nikon, HP, Iomega, Sandisk and several other major brands and some minor brands of cameras, drives, cards, etc. and usually without drivers. Just plug them in. They work.

    Yes, out of probably 50 plus machines in 20 years – I’ve called tech support once. I had a Mac Mini that wouldn’t start – right out of the box. On the phone for only 5 min., they got it started up.

    I’ve had three macs just die after more than three years of service (kernel panic) and many more die after more than five years of service. I’ve lost two modems and a hard drive due to electrical storms, but the Macs kept on working.

    I have two G4 towers that are about 8 years old. They have been rebuilt about three times. They started with 256 MB of RAM, now have over 1 GB and twice upgraded from regular CD drives to CDR drives and now DVD/CDR drives. They keep on ticking.

    Apple has grown a little too fast, and that has diluted its quality of product and support. But all companies that grow go through it. It is hard to keep up quality in rapid periods of growth.

    But Apple still has the best product in the computer market for out of the box quality.

    Mr. C

  92. I find Apple’s arrogance (hate those dumb commercials) and obsession with style over substance brutally annoying. And nothing compares to the ripoff that is their modus operandi when it comes to hardware.

    The problem is, they still make the best damn computers out there. That’s what REALLY drives me batshit!

  93. I find Apple’s arrogance (hate those dumb commercials) and obsession with style over substance brutally annoying. And nothing compares to the ripoff that is their modus operandi when it comes to hardware.

    The problem is, they still make the best damn computers out there. That’s what REALLY drives me batshit!

  94. I, for one, feel betrayed by Apple. I know that’s a stupid feeling to have about a company. But I felt there was a silent contract with Apple. I have supported them during the dark years, when Windows was a better product and they would keep doing a fine OS for me. I feel they have gone distracted from the US/Computer business by the iPod/iPhone stuff. It is unfair that my laptop looks basically the same as it did four years ago. In the meantime, the PC laptops are looking fine and Vista has catch up a little with Mac OS X. I want a 12′ inch, thin, not very heavy machine that doesn’t cost a fortune.

  95. I, for one, feel betrayed by Apple. I know that’s a stupid feeling to have about a company. But I felt there was a silent contract with Apple. I have supported them during the dark years, when Windows was a better product and they would keep doing a fine OS for me. I feel they have gone distracted from the US/Computer business by the iPod/iPhone stuff. It is unfair that my laptop looks basically the same as it did four years ago. In the meantime, the PC laptops are looking fine and Vista has catch up a little with Mac OS X. I want a 12′ inch, thin, not very heavy machine that doesn’t cost a fortune.

  96. My opinion of Apple started to change a couple of years ago when I had an iBook go bad for the nth time. So much for reliability. But the Apple response to it (which more than a year after it started resulted in a recall) made matters worse.

    The switch to Intel gave me pause, as did the removal of “Computer” from the name. I would never buy another Apple computer, and I’ve lost interest tin the iPods, have no confidence in them as a phone company.

    I really don’t know where they are headed, and have a sneaking suspicion that they don’t either.

  97. My opinion of Apple started to change a couple of years ago when I had an iBook go bad for the nth time. So much for reliability. But the Apple response to it (which more than a year after it started resulted in a recall) made matters worse.

    The switch to Intel gave me pause, as did the removal of “Computer” from the name. I would never buy another Apple computer, and I’ve lost interest tin the iPods, have no confidence in them as a phone company.

    I really don’t know where they are headed, and have a sneaking suspicion that they don’t either.

  98. Perhaps that person who happens to work at Apple didn’t want to talk to you specifically, Robert, because he was concerned about you publishing anything he told you as attributed to an Apple employee – as if he was officially representing the company’s position, or was sharing inside information, or was otherwise privileged by his employment.

    I know you like to pretend that everybody always represents their employer in all things, but that simply doesn’t match reality. Most people should never be taken as representing their employer in any fashion – they certainly aren’t authorized to do so, and take great pains to ensure it doesn’t appear that they are – and the way you present yourself and your beliefs about this contradicts that.

    So instead of being able to interact with you as a fellow friendly member of the community, people have to interact with you as a journalist asking to speak to them on-record. For many people this means all they can really say is “No comment, please contact our PR department if you’d like to discuss this.”

  99. Perhaps that person who happens to work at Apple didn’t want to talk to you specifically, Robert, because he was concerned about you publishing anything he told you as attributed to an Apple employee – as if he was officially representing the company’s position, or was sharing inside information, or was otherwise privileged by his employment.

    I know you like to pretend that everybody always represents their employer in all things, but that simply doesn’t match reality. Most people should never be taken as representing their employer in any fashion – they certainly aren’t authorized to do so, and take great pains to ensure it doesn’t appear that they are – and the way you present yourself and your beliefs about this contradicts that.

    So instead of being able to interact with you as a fellow friendly member of the community, people have to interact with you as a journalist asking to speak to them on-record. For many people this means all they can really say is “No comment, please contact our PR department if you’d like to discuss this.”

  100. Yes, unfortunately it has changed. I’ve been buying Macs since the Blue and White G3 days, and until recently I’ve always been incredibly happy with Apple’s superior quality and service.

    But over the last few years, I’ve seen more and more anecdotal evidence of a change in attitude and quality control. A disproportionate number of friends have had serious hardware issues with their Macintoshes. The service Apple provides has deteriorated. Their attitude has gotten worse. Their DRM lock-in is stronger. Honestly, I’m less eager to purchase another Mac when I buy my next computer. I think it’s time to go back to Linux [I've not been a Windows user for many years, I could never get used to it, and still don't like it when I'm forced to use it. Just a personal preference, not a religious choice.]

  101. Yes, unfortunately it has changed. I’ve been buying Macs since the Blue and White G3 days, and until recently I’ve always been incredibly happy with Apple’s superior quality and service.

    But over the last few years, I’ve seen more and more anecdotal evidence of a change in attitude and quality control. A disproportionate number of friends have had serious hardware issues with their Macintoshes. The service Apple provides has deteriorated. Their attitude has gotten worse. Their DRM lock-in is stronger. Honestly, I’m less eager to purchase another Mac when I buy my next computer. I think it’s time to go back to Linux [I've not been a Windows user for many years, I could never get used to it, and still don't like it when I'm forced to use it. Just a personal preference, not a religious choice.]

  102. Apple has been cutting corners for years. For instance, I have never had an Apple portable that the hard drive didn’t die on. It’s invariable. I’ve owned three and had three HD deaths.

    Their warranties suck and they’ve never fixed things for me without doing so begrudgingly. My iPhone has been spazzing out for months. Locking up, sound goes out randomly, all sorts of stuff. I’ve brought it into the Apple store about five times and they refuse to replace it because I can never seem to reproduce the problems on the spot (they always act up again later though). It’s not like I’m asking them for much, just to give me a damn refurb replacement, but alas, that’s too much to ask.

    I want to like Apple. I really try. I keep buying their products hoping that it’s managed to make something quality, but time-after-time, Apple has let me down.

    What I’ve noticed is that everyone loves to bash Microsoft because, as you said, it’s dominant, but Apple fans always forgive, or completely overlook, Cupertino’s flaws. Saying something about a problem with an Apple product in a blog post on CrunchGear, however, almost always brings criticism and death threats. It’s tedious, very tedious.

  103. Apple has been cutting corners for years. For instance, I have never had an Apple portable that the hard drive didn’t die on. It’s invariable. I’ve owned three and had three HD deaths.

    Their warranties suck and they’ve never fixed things for me without doing so begrudgingly. My iPhone has been spazzing out for months. Locking up, sound goes out randomly, all sorts of stuff. I’ve brought it into the Apple store about five times and they refuse to replace it because I can never seem to reproduce the problems on the spot (they always act up again later though). It’s not like I’m asking them for much, just to give me a damn refurb replacement, but alas, that’s too much to ask.

    I want to like Apple. I really try. I keep buying their products hoping that it’s managed to make something quality, but time-after-time, Apple has let me down.

    What I’ve noticed is that everyone loves to bash Microsoft because, as you said, it’s dominant, but Apple fans always forgive, or completely overlook, Cupertino’s flaws. Saying something about a problem with an Apple product in a blog post on CrunchGear, however, almost always brings criticism and death threats. It’s tedious, very tedious.

  104. I bought a MacBook really excited about the resurgence of the company, but it didn’t take long to discover that it have been hacked. Not only were people able to spy on my through the iSight but all my network activity was being monitored. Worse, I was unable to use any application to detect it (I wish I had another computer then.) Talking 2 apple about this, I got an assurance that they would look into this and contact me back. I never get a call. And after I sent the MacBook in for repairs the problem continued. Needless to say, I sold the laptop shorly thereafter. I like the vision of Apple, I’m just afraid they sold the soul to get there.

  105. I bought a MacBook really excited about the resurgence of the company, but it didn’t take long to discover that it have been hacked. Not only were people able to spy on my through the iSight but all my network activity was being monitored. Worse, I was unable to use any application to detect it (I wish I had another computer then.) Talking 2 apple about this, I got an assurance that they would look into this and contact me back. I never get a call. And after I sent the MacBook in for repairs the problem continued. Needless to say, I sold the laptop shorly thereafter. I like the vision of Apple, I’m just afraid they sold the soul to get there.

  106. I feel bad for Dave because he seems to be majorly plagued with problems. I am an Apple loyalist, but no fanboy–just because it’s a better OS, and for the most part, the hardware is gnerally better (though I like my ThinkPad (not its Windows) too). Overall, the whole user experience blows doors on Windows, and that’s why I keep coming back.

    Though Macs are a lot more price competitive than they used to be, when it comes to perpherals like HDs, memory and other things, they ream you, and thus I don’t buy that stuff from Apple–it’s just common sense. I have had two HD crashes in about 15 Macs over 20 years, and I replaced them both, and always add my own extra RAM (Apple really gets you there). You need to be a wise shopper, and Apple knows how to get you there. They are a business.

    As far as their customer service and support, I continue to have good support experiences (when I use it, I tend to trouble shoot on my own and they have very good forums). I’ve made two appointments with geniuses to troubleshoot things, and both times they replaced parts they suspected faulty (in one case a two-month old entire Powerbook). So, yeah, you have to be careful and they aren’t Angels, but on the whole they are better than the alternatives.

    Also, I expect that the more popular they get with bloggers and the world, their warts will become more apparent, and hopefully they will respond and get even better.

    Good discussion here for the most part, and good to see not too much standard Mac-PC bashing–I can’t stand it either way, because I’m “bilingual.”

  107. I feel bad for Dave because he seems to be majorly plagued with problems. I am an Apple loyalist, but no fanboy–just because it’s a better OS, and for the most part, the hardware is gnerally better (though I like my ThinkPad (not its Windows) too). Overall, the whole user experience blows doors on Windows, and that’s why I keep coming back.

    Though Macs are a lot more price competitive than they used to be, when it comes to perpherals like HDs, memory and other things, they ream you, and thus I don’t buy that stuff from Apple–it’s just common sense. I have had two HD crashes in about 15 Macs over 20 years, and I replaced them both, and always add my own extra RAM (Apple really gets you there). You need to be a wise shopper, and Apple knows how to get you there. They are a business.

    As far as their customer service and support, I continue to have good support experiences (when I use it, I tend to trouble shoot on my own and they have very good forums). I’ve made two appointments with geniuses to troubleshoot things, and both times they replaced parts they suspected faulty (in one case a two-month old entire Powerbook). So, yeah, you have to be careful and they aren’t Angels, but on the whole they are better than the alternatives.

    Also, I expect that the more popular they get with bloggers and the world, their warts will become more apparent, and hopefully they will respond and get even better.

    Good discussion here for the most part, and good to see not too much standard Mac-PC bashing–I can’t stand it either way, because I’m “bilingual.”

  108. For the amount of brains Winer supposedly has, and the amount of innovative technology he’s supposedly invented, why the hell did he take his machine into the store in the first place? I would think he would be bright enough to replace the hard drive himself. Seems he was deliberately looking for something to whine about. Just because his last name is Winer doesn’t mean he has to live up to it.

  109. For the amount of brains Winer supposedly has, and the amount of innovative technology he’s supposedly invented, why the hell did he take his machine into the store in the first place? I would think he would be bright enough to replace the hard drive himself. Seems he was deliberately looking for something to whine about. Just because his last name is Winer doesn’t mean he has to live up to it.

  110. Why do so few people get it? Neither Scoble nor Winer’s blog entry is about Apple really. Both are about the feelings of entitlement these men, who imagine themselves to be much more significant than they are, have. Each thinks he or his offspring should be treated better than the average customer, rules be damned.

    I have not seen any rejection of Apple in consumer research or most mass media. The people who complain when invited to do so, as on this thread, tend to be rather dim like the fellow who can’t even spell ‘genius,’ or hostile to Apple because they work for Microsoft like the Zune troll, or out of their minds like the wuss who thinks his built-in Mac camera is spying on him. (Maybe he would rather have an external camera taped on his forehead.) The caliber of the complainers makes their complaints easily dismissible.

  111. Why do so few people get it? Neither Scoble nor Winer’s blog entry is about Apple really. Both are about the feelings of entitlement these men, who imagine themselves to be much more significant than they are, have. Each thinks he or his offspring should be treated better than the average customer, rules be damned.

    I have not seen any rejection of Apple in consumer research or most mass media. The people who complain when invited to do so, as on this thread, tend to be rather dim like the fellow who can’t even spell ‘genius,’ or hostile to Apple because they work for Microsoft like the Zune troll, or out of their minds like the wuss who thinks his built-in Mac camera is spying on him. (Maybe he would rather have an external camera taped on his forehead.) The caliber of the complainers makes their complaints easily dismissible.

  112. My GF has a MacBook that she bought refurbished in the states, so she payed like 500€ for it instead of 1200€ and right before the warranty ran out the mouse wouldn’t click anymore, so we got a new top case and even a new logic board totally free.
    If I call Apple for my iphone however they always deny service because i dont got an att phone no.

  113. My GF has a MacBook that she bought refurbished in the states, so she payed like 500€ for it instead of 1200€ and right before the warranty ran out the mouse wouldn’t click anymore, so we got a new top case and even a new logic board totally free.
    If I call Apple for my iphone however they always deny service because i dont got an att phone no.

  114. Podesta: yeah, it’s all about us, isn’t it? The lines at the genius bar are getting noticeably longer. You just watch the customer satisfaction surveys. My bet is that they start going down where Apple is concerned.

  115. Podesta: yeah, it’s all about us, isn’t it? The lines at the genius bar are getting noticeably longer. You just watch the customer satisfaction surveys. My bet is that they start going down where Apple is concerned.

  116. For me my opinion hasn’t changed. I’ve always built PCs (Windows) myself using the best parts I could afford. I RTFMs, and thus rarely had problems with Windows that were not caused by my own tinkering.

    I got my first Apple product, and iBook (dual USB) back in 2001, and had a horrible experience, but after shelling out almost 3 grand I stuck with it and eventually after getting up to OS 10.3 it was a usable machine. However, same rules applied, I rarely had problems with my Apple that were not caused by my own tinkering.

    When I got my next iBook, and now my MacBook Pro, mighty mouse and wireless keyboard things have changed. Each product has gone in for hardware related repairs at least once.

    As Apple grows we’ll see more unhappiness. When fanboys have a product (fanboys of any company) you won’t hear complaints, just people asking how to fix an issue and people providing help. Once a product goes mainstream as Apple products have, you’ll hear the “regular” user, the mom and pops, start noticing issues and the complaining voices getting louder. That is what we’re seeing now.

  117. For me my opinion hasn’t changed. I’ve always built PCs (Windows) myself using the best parts I could afford. I RTFMs, and thus rarely had problems with Windows that were not caused by my own tinkering.

    I got my first Apple product, and iBook (dual USB) back in 2001, and had a horrible experience, but after shelling out almost 3 grand I stuck with it and eventually after getting up to OS 10.3 it was a usable machine. However, same rules applied, I rarely had problems with my Apple that were not caused by my own tinkering.

    When I got my next iBook, and now my MacBook Pro, mighty mouse and wireless keyboard things have changed. Each product has gone in for hardware related repairs at least once.

    As Apple grows we’ll see more unhappiness. When fanboys have a product (fanboys of any company) you won’t hear complaints, just people asking how to fix an issue and people providing help. Once a product goes mainstream as Apple products have, you’ll hear the “regular” user, the mom and pops, start noticing issues and the complaining voices getting louder. That is what we’re seeing now.

  118. The thing is, Apple is doing what it’s always done, except that people are beginning to notice, since their volume and mind share has gone up. For years, I never owned an Apple product due to their closed/proprietary policies (hey I am a Linux guy). Strange thing is, that in a couple of weeks I am selling my desktop PC and buying a mac to complement my Linux box. Fact remains that with Parallels/VMWare, I can enjoy the best of both worlds and for what I a doing these days, a Mac makes more sense. I figure that if I am going to deal with hardware issues, I’d rather do it with a computer that looks cool and has an OS I like (I have never, ever liked Windows, but have learnt to tolerate it)

  119. The thing is, Apple is doing what it’s always done, except that people are beginning to notice, since their volume and mind share has gone up. For years, I never owned an Apple product due to their closed/proprietary policies (hey I am a Linux guy). Strange thing is, that in a couple of weeks I am selling my desktop PC and buying a mac to complement my Linux box. Fact remains that with Parallels/VMWare, I can enjoy the best of both worlds and for what I a doing these days, a Mac makes more sense. I figure that if I am going to deal with hardware issues, I’d rather do it with a computer that looks cool and has an OS I like (I have never, ever liked Windows, but have learnt to tolerate it)

  120. Apple still has a lot of cool people working for them. My friend made an appointment with the wanna-be genius bar and they fixed up his iPhone earpieces problem even though he knew it was running T-mobile. He said in a condescending voice, you know, “We don’t support these!” and then fixed the thing. :)

    What’s changing is the democratization of information and people realize that they can get Windows on their Macbook (even though you really need a pro to run Vista well IMHO) There are the 1 percent of people who are the innovators (like, you Dave and Even me to some extent and I Robert who influence the early adopters and those early adopters start influencing the rest.

    Of the innovators and the early adopters, many don’t feel comfortable using a machine that everyone else is using and so they will seek to differentiate themselves from the crowd. It’s a physiological type subject that’s beyond my understanding but it does happen ya know.

    The next thing you know, we will live in an age where everything is modular and a commodity. Many of the smart people will roll their own OSes and subscribe to the services they trust and need.

    The semantic age is upon us. Microsoft probably has a lot of crazy awesome stuff just waiting that they will bust out right when the tide turns. They are a calculating animal, they are still under heavy scrutiny by all sides for Monopoly stuff and once the Mac gets to the point where they are over 10 percent of the share, Microsoft can resort to playing the game of Bill Vs. Steve anyway they want.

    For me, I don’t sit and argue about what I think is better, I have a Mac Book Pro which runs all os’es. I run a geek data center in my home and I love to learn the pros and cons to each technology, and I try to apply that knowledge in a way that I know someday will help me turn my great new idea into something that will help everyone accomplish something better, and possibly earn a buck or two doing it. Dave Winer always has my respect for the whole sending out RSS to the masses. He doesn’t horde it or charge an arm an a leg for its use, which is very important for somethign like RSS.

    Okay, I am way off track, if you read this far, Happy Holiday/Merry Christmas to you Robert. A happy new year/end of year as well.

  121. Apple still has a lot of cool people working for them. My friend made an appointment with the wanna-be genius bar and they fixed up his iPhone earpieces problem even though he knew it was running T-mobile. He said in a condescending voice, you know, “We don’t support these!” and then fixed the thing. :)

    What’s changing is the democratization of information and people realize that they can get Windows on their Macbook (even though you really need a pro to run Vista well IMHO) There are the 1 percent of people who are the innovators (like, you Dave and Even me to some extent and I Robert who influence the early adopters and those early adopters start influencing the rest.

    Of the innovators and the early adopters, many don’t feel comfortable using a machine that everyone else is using and so they will seek to differentiate themselves from the crowd. It’s a physiological type subject that’s beyond my understanding but it does happen ya know.

    The next thing you know, we will live in an age where everything is modular and a commodity. Many of the smart people will roll their own OSes and subscribe to the services they trust and need.

    The semantic age is upon us. Microsoft probably has a lot of crazy awesome stuff just waiting that they will bust out right when the tide turns. They are a calculating animal, they are still under heavy scrutiny by all sides for Monopoly stuff and once the Mac gets to the point where they are over 10 percent of the share, Microsoft can resort to playing the game of Bill Vs. Steve anyway they want.

    For me, I don’t sit and argue about what I think is better, I have a Mac Book Pro which runs all os’es. I run a geek data center in my home and I love to learn the pros and cons to each technology, and I try to apply that knowledge in a way that I know someday will help me turn my great new idea into something that will help everyone accomplish something better, and possibly earn a buck or two doing it. Dave Winer always has my respect for the whole sending out RSS to the masses. He doesn’t horde it or charge an arm an a leg for its use, which is very important for somethign like RSS.

    Okay, I am way off track, if you read this far, Happy Holiday/Merry Christmas to you Robert. A happy new year/end of year as well.

  122. Something a few have mentioned on here and Dave Winer’s blog re BMW cars being top quality and priced accordingly: not sure what the view is like in the US but in the UK BMW’s definitely do not have that image; there are more BMW 3 series sold than Ford Mondeos. BMW’s are not in the slightest bit exclusive, or, in my view stylish/well designed.

    Give me an Audi any day.

  123. Something a few have mentioned on here and Dave Winer’s blog re BMW cars being top quality and priced accordingly: not sure what the view is like in the US but in the UK BMW’s definitely do not have that image; there are more BMW 3 series sold than Ford Mondeos. BMW’s are not in the slightest bit exclusive, or, in my view stylish/well designed.

    Give me an Audi any day.

  124. I worked briefly for Apple around 1980 and was allowed to test keyboards and that was all, despite a fine resume. All the good line jobs went to revered older Vietnamese ladies who did absolutely nothing. Ever curious I found bad chips but you had be a degreed male engineer to replace them. Hilarity ensued at the grand opening when the much awaited air balloon was overinflated by the drunken operators. Free beer and t-shirts weren’t enough to make up for 8 hours a day being paid nothing, hard work and being treated poorly. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I will never spend a dime on any Apple product. Yeah I know Kiddos – bitter old lady in Texas – but I was sole support of my family.

  125. I worked briefly for Apple around 1980 and was allowed to test keyboards and that was all, despite a fine resume. All the good line jobs went to revered older Vietnamese ladies who did absolutely nothing. Ever curious I found bad chips but you had be a degreed male engineer to replace them. Hilarity ensued at the grand opening when the much awaited air balloon was overinflated by the drunken operators. Free beer and t-shirts weren’t enough to make up for 8 hours a day being paid nothing, hard work and being treated poorly. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I will never spend a dime on any Apple product. Yeah I know Kiddos – bitter old lady in Texas – but I was sole support of my family.

  126. Heh yeah, go to repair a BMW out of warranty and see if you think you are getting value for the product.

    As for having to go somewhere to get a product fixed? That’s just lame.

    Dell users don’t have to deal with that since they make a phone call and either have someone come to their house/place of business to do the repair or a box arrives next day for them to ship the computer back.

    And as far as iPod being the best media player out there? Yeah, right. It’s just the most stylish.

    I think that the Creative players are every bit of good and are a much better value, you just don’t get the “cool” factor of owning the latest “designed in California/built in China” Apple toy.

  127. Heh yeah, go to repair a BMW out of warranty and see if you think you are getting value for the product.

    As for having to go somewhere to get a product fixed? That’s just lame.

    Dell users don’t have to deal with that since they make a phone call and either have someone come to their house/place of business to do the repair or a box arrives next day for them to ship the computer back.

    And as far as iPod being the best media player out there? Yeah, right. It’s just the most stylish.

    I think that the Creative players are every bit of good and are a much better value, you just don’t get the “cool” factor of owning the latest “designed in California/built in China” Apple toy.

  128. Ever since they dropped the “Computer” from their name they’ve been building up a pretty consistent track record of bad karma. Just a biiiit more of this, and Apple will bury itself in the hole it keeps digging up. I think Steve needs his soul aura cleansed.

  129. Ever since they dropped the “Computer” from their name they’ve been building up a pretty consistent track record of bad karma. Just a biiiit more of this, and Apple will bury itself in the hole it keeps digging up. I think Steve needs his soul aura cleansed.

  130. BTW #55:

    So when Mac people do it they were just being “bitterly defensive” (how noble and upstanding). But when Windows people do it they are “whiners” (how childish). Got it.

    I love it when such brilliance shines through from the murkiest turd.

  131. BTW #55:

    So when Mac people do it they were just being “bitterly defensive” (how noble and upstanding). But when Windows people do it they are “whiners” (how childish). Got it.

    I love it when such brilliance shines through from the murkiest turd.

  132. I find it amusing that in all the noise, the signal – that Winer’s whole case blows up when you see that it’s based on an error (assumed a 2.5″ drive is roughly the same price as a 3.5″ drive) – has been ignored.

    On the other hand, the ignorance seems willful (Winer has yet to even approve my comment on this), so I’ll put it down to ego rather than stupidity.

  133. I find it amusing that in all the noise, the signal – that Winer’s whole case blows up when you see that it’s based on an error (assumed a 2.5″ drive is roughly the same price as a 3.5″ drive) – has been ignored.

    On the other hand, the ignorance seems willful (Winer has yet to even approve my comment on this), so I’ll put it down to ego rather than stupidity.

  134. If I were Apple, and I were promising to “Think Different,” I would work my hardest to avoid acting like those I was supposed to be thinking different from.

    That sentence is a grammatical nightmare, but maybe you see my point.

    Much has been made of the fact that Dave Winer may not have asked in advance to keep his old drive, or read the fine print, and so on. I think what he has pointed out is that there shouldn’t be fine print, and the company should do the asking.

    IP, or “data” if it’s on a hard drive, is important after all. Even the MPAA agrees.

  135. If I were Apple, and I were promising to “Think Different,” I would work my hardest to avoid acting like those I was supposed to be thinking different from.

    That sentence is a grammatical nightmare, but maybe you see my point.

    Much has been made of the fact that Dave Winer may not have asked in advance to keep his old drive, or read the fine print, and so on. I think what he has pointed out is that there shouldn’t be fine print, and the company should do the asking.

    IP, or “data” if it’s on a hard drive, is important after all. Even the MPAA agrees.

  136. On the premise that Apple launches inferior products masquerading as cutting edge, and limits usage primarily to its own software (the iPhone and iPod being prime examples)I will snub and boycott anything from now on which comes out with an “i” in front of a capital letter!

  137. On the premise that Apple launches inferior products masquerading as cutting edge, and limits usage primarily to its own software (the iPhone and iPod being prime examples)I will snub and boycott anything from now on which comes out with an “i” in front of a capital letter!

  138. It’s just bound to happen as Apple grows in popularity and mindset. And this is true for anybody: the more tech you put in your devices, the more ways things may go wrong. It’s the price of advancement as Apple strives to be more cutting edge than anyone else. And what was said above is true: people almost never switch from Mac to Windows, and that speaks volumes.

    I think the more interesting argument is how Apple is handling customer service when problems do pop up.

  139. It’s just bound to happen as Apple grows in popularity and mindset. And this is true for anybody: the more tech you put in your devices, the more ways things may go wrong. It’s the price of advancement as Apple strives to be more cutting edge than anyone else. And what was said above is true: people almost never switch from Mac to Windows, and that speaks volumes.

    I think the more interesting argument is how Apple is handling customer service when problems do pop up.

  140. In high school we had to use PowerMacs and then the first imacs for laying out the newspaper in Pagemaker. Freezing was a regular problem, and with no restart button, we were forced to create the iMac repair center: an uncoiled paper clip housed in a place of honor on the chalk rail to jam into the little hole the restarted the cruddy things.

    While I own other apples products, my negative apple experience at school (vs. the fully functional PC I had at home) will always make me hesitant to “go mac” for my primary computer.

  141. In high school we had to use PowerMacs and then the first imacs for laying out the newspaper in Pagemaker. Freezing was a regular problem, and with no restart button, we were forced to create the iMac repair center: an uncoiled paper clip housed in a place of honor on the chalk rail to jam into the little hole the restarted the cruddy things.

    While I own other apples products, my negative apple experience at school (vs. the fully functional PC I had at home) will always make me hesitant to “go mac” for my primary computer.

  142. Well, with Apple’s stock above $200 for a time lately, Scoble and Winer’s campaign to influence people against the company appears to be faring poorly. Furthermore, Apple is just about the only tech stock above the market average. With enemies like them….

  143. Well, with Apple’s stock above $200 for a time lately, Scoble and Winer’s campaign to influence people against the company appears to be faring poorly. Furthermore, Apple is just about the only tech stock above the market average. With enemies like them….

  144. It’s totally ridiculous to charge $160 for a drive that costs $90 elsewhere

    I’d love to know where to find a $90 portable notebook hard drive for $90, because I can’t find one for less than $120 and that’s from Tiger Direct.

  145. It’s totally ridiculous to charge $160 for a drive that costs $90 elsewhere

    I’d love to know where to find a $90 portable notebook hard drive for $90, because I can’t find one for less than $120 and that’s from Tiger Direct.

  146. Apple had the same philosophy in the 80′s that prevented them from becoming ubiquitous, extreme control. I remember in 1985 going to an apple store to just fix some hard drive problem and being charged $400. Closed systems, limited resellers, exploting customers and bottlenecks are the antithesis of mass market adoption. The reason must be obvious.

  147. Apple had the same philosophy in the 80′s that prevented them from becoming ubiquitous, extreme control. I remember in 1985 going to an apple store to just fix some hard drive problem and being charged $400. Closed systems, limited resellers, exploting customers and bottlenecks are the antithesis of mass market adoption. The reason must be obvious.

  148. Apple: (1) Applecare repairs are hit or miss – sometimes they are really nice and fix it for you right away, sometimes they are evil and blame you for fake water damage.

    (2) Apple puts out buggy software in their updates and waits for the complaints to come in. Don’t be a chump and upgrade without checking up on it first.
    (3) The apple Ipod – in general a good product but too expensive for what it is seems MS and Apple may have switched roles in this regard (Zune is superior product (save the ipod Touch)) and if you bought itunes music you have to risk violating DMCA to get your stuff on another player.

    Apple OS X, even 10.4 way ahead of anything on a PC. Period. Windows is extremely frustrating and a time suck. Thus, pure and simple the only reason I stay apple and even continue to convert my machines to apple is the OS. After all of the disappointing experiences, if another flavor of Linux ever becomes consumer friendly I would seriously consider switching. I do not have the time to compile everything I want to install or recompile the Kernal or all the other crap that linuxites think everyone should spend there time doing. Not worth it. But if another supported flavor of unix was available I would definitely consider ditching Apple due to its unfriendly treatment of its customers.

    Hey google-put out a unix flavored OS that is a more open!

  149. Apple: (1) Applecare repairs are hit or miss – sometimes they are really nice and fix it for you right away, sometimes they are evil and blame you for fake water damage.

    (2) Apple puts out buggy software in their updates and waits for the complaints to come in. Don’t be a chump and upgrade without checking up on it first.
    (3) The apple Ipod – in general a good product but too expensive for what it is seems MS and Apple may have switched roles in this regard (Zune is superior product (save the ipod Touch)) and if you bought itunes music you have to risk violating DMCA to get your stuff on another player.

    Apple OS X, even 10.4 way ahead of anything on a PC. Period. Windows is extremely frustrating and a time suck. Thus, pure and simple the only reason I stay apple and even continue to convert my machines to apple is the OS. After all of the disappointing experiences, if another flavor of Linux ever becomes consumer friendly I would seriously consider switching. I do not have the time to compile everything I want to install or recompile the Kernal or all the other crap that linuxites think everyone should spend there time doing. Not worth it. But if another supported flavor of unix was available I would definitely consider ditching Apple due to its unfriendly treatment of its customers.

    Hey google-put out a unix flavored OS that is a more open!