Seattle vs. Silicon Valley sillyness

Seattle from near Amazon's headquarters

Ahh, there’s a big debate about which is better, Seattle or Silicon Valley.

There are things to like about both (I’ve lived in both places).

But for me there’s no option: I couldn’t do what I do anywhere else in the world than here (the range and diversity of tech companies is a lot greater here than in Seattle).

Luckily Seattle is only a couple of hours away from here so I can get the best of both worlds.

One thing you shouldn’t miss is the amount of building that Microsoft is doing. Microsoft’s campus is absolutely huge now and getting much bigger. Nothing like it in Silicon Valley. Oh, and the Boeing factory tour is a not to be missed thing. It’s amazing how they build airplanes there.

Comments

  1. Robert,

    Let’s not forget the difference in weather. We all know Seattle gets far too much moisture compared to SV.

    I know it doesn’t matter since we can do nothing about it, but don’t you worry a bit about living in earthquake territory?

    I prefer the beauty of the NW over CA anyday, though, and the people in WA are generally more friendly than in CA. Portland, however, is in a class all by itself. Weird place. Weird vibe.

  2. Robert,

    Let’s not forget the difference in weather. We all know Seattle gets far too much moisture compared to SV.

    I know it doesn’t matter since we can do nothing about it, but don’t you worry a bit about living in earthquake territory?

    I prefer the beauty of the NW over CA anyday, though, and the people in WA are generally more friendly than in CA. Portland, however, is in a class all by itself. Weird place. Weird vibe.

  3. Seattle is more prone to earthquakes and natural disasters than Silicon Valley is. Did you forget the volcano that, if it went off, would wipe out large parts?

    I lived through the 1989 earthquake. They don’t worry me. I’m far more likely to get killed in a car wreck today driving across the San Andreas fault than in anything the earth is likely to do to me.

  4. Seattle is more prone to earthquakes and natural disasters than Silicon Valley is. Did you forget the volcano that, if it went off, would wipe out large parts?

    I lived through the 1989 earthquake. They don’t worry me. I’m far more likely to get killed in a car wreck today driving across the San Andreas fault than in anything the earth is likely to do to me.

  5. I have also lived in both places. Seattle is the most beautiful place on earth for about 6 weeks; the rest of the time you’re better off spending the day in your basement (and many people do).

    There was a pretty decent quake in Seattle in 2003, so SV is not unique in that category.

  6. I have also lived in both places. Seattle is the most beautiful place on earth for about 6 weeks; the rest of the time you’re better off spending the day in your basement (and many people do).

    There was a pretty decent quake in Seattle in 2003, so SV is not unique in that category.

  7. The biggest amusement is hearing people in Portland whine about higher traffic and urban sprawl, and those too expensive 400K houses. And much of this population growth is due to people moving to the NW from California, priced out of the market here.

    Because of this migration, Portland is becoming more like Seattle, Seattle more like San Francisco of twenty years ago, while the Bay Area becomes more like Los Angeles, and LA Mexico City. Enjoy each while it lasts.

  8. The biggest amusement is hearing people in Portland whine about higher traffic and urban sprawl, and those too expensive 400K houses. And much of this population growth is due to people moving to the NW from California, priced out of the market here.

    Because of this migration, Portland is becoming more like Seattle, Seattle more like San Francisco of twenty years ago, while the Bay Area becomes more like Los Angeles, and LA Mexico City. Enjoy each while it lasts.

  9. Having been born and rasied in Cali, then relo-ed up here by MSFT this is how I describe what it is like to live in Seattle to people from California:

    Steps to recreating Seattle -
    1) Go into your bathroom.
    2) Turn off all the lights.
    3) Turn on the shower with only cold water.
    4) Stand in shower under spray. For 9 months.

    That is what it is like to live in Seattle.

  10. Having been born and rasied in Cali, then relo-ed up here by MSFT this is how I describe what it is like to live in Seattle to people from California:

    Steps to recreating Seattle -
    1) Go into your bathroom.
    2) Turn off all the lights.
    3) Turn on the shower with only cold water.
    4) Stand in shower under spray. For 9 months.

    That is what it is like to live in Seattle.

  11. We have a – history of Silicon Valley site, that clears up the mystery of how Silicon Valley came to be.

    It is much more complicated and coincidental than anyone imagines

  12. We have a – history of Silicon Valley site, that clears up the mystery of how Silicon Valley came to be.

    It is much more complicated and coincidental than anyone imagines

  13. I could not live in Seattle except for those couple/three months where it’s nice all the time.

    I lived in NE England for a few years and it’s just like Seattle — months of a constant mist, dreary, overcast slate-gray skies. Your skin stays nice, but your mood usually matches the weather. You can become used to it, but it takes effort. I also lived in southern Europe, where the heat can be oppressive, it rarely rains, and the beaches are far too crowded. People tend to be happier in southern europe like they are in the southwestern US.

    I live in the SW, and I can tell you that it gets too hot here, too many scorpions, too many black flag days (100+ heat). We are in the 80s-90s by late March, and come June, it’s 100 or so most of the time through September. Almost no rain after April/early May. If I had the money, I’d live in southern Europe almost full time.

  14. I could not live in Seattle except for those couple/three months where it’s nice all the time.

    I lived in NE England for a few years and it’s just like Seattle — months of a constant mist, dreary, overcast slate-gray skies. Your skin stays nice, but your mood usually matches the weather. You can become used to it, but it takes effort. I also lived in southern Europe, where the heat can be oppressive, it rarely rains, and the beaches are far too crowded. People tend to be happier in southern europe like they are in the southwestern US.

    I live in the SW, and I can tell you that it gets too hot here, too many scorpions, too many black flag days (100+ heat). We are in the 80s-90s by late March, and come June, it’s 100 or so most of the time through September. Almost no rain after April/early May. If I had the money, I’d live in southern Europe almost full time.

  15. [...] Silicon Valley vrs Seattle – Future Tech Innovation Leader? The  Latest Tech Debate:  Silicon Valley vrs SeattleHistory of Silicon Valley and MicrosoftWe will pose the question to youWhich one is the current tech capital of  the world?Where do you see the leadership of tech and hi tech innovation coming from during the next decadeThis controversy has really gotten passionate comments from Geeks from these top tech blogshttp://www.techcrunch.com/2008/02/15/an-outsiders-flawed-view-of-silicon-valley/http://blog.redfin.com/blog/2008/02/the_next_silicon_valley.htmlhttp://scobleizer.com/2008/02/15/seattle-vs-silicon-valley-sillyness/ [...]

  16. Valley is spread-out mindless urban sprawl, with hellish traffic, if going to Frisco or anywhere outside of the burby micro-communities. San Jose is office park hell, gone modern deco, with just enough shine to keep you from going insane. Much luster and romance painted up by people who have never lived there. Life seems but a day-to-day struggle for most, lacks any peace of mind. A few lucky ones, like millionaires in Manhattan, get to bask in all the parties and overpriced glory hype, everyone else rat-races themselves to early deaths.

    Seattle is expensive, bitter-rain hell. It’s like having a bad cold, most of the year. Gray, wet, depression-inducing, with only brief summer sprites. Traffic is no picnic either. The “grundge movement” birthed in Seattle, continues to churn at its cultural and political nethanderal levels.

    Weatherwise California always wins, but everything else is a toss-up. And yes, sure, some good in anyplace if you look deep enough, well excepting the entire State of Arkansas. Valley has ideas, and like-minds, a close comforting cult, Seattle has the great outdoors, just take the raincoat.

    Chicago, the most livable big-city, still has the Lake Mich. bitter cold, and the Miami paradise, has it’s soaring high-costs and sprawl. Nothings perfect, go where the job is.

  17. Valley is spread-out mindless urban sprawl, with hellish traffic, if going to Frisco or anywhere outside of the burby micro-communities. San Jose is office park hell, gone modern deco, with just enough shine to keep you from going insane. Much luster and romance painted up by people who have never lived there. Life seems but a day-to-day struggle for most, lacks any peace of mind. A few lucky ones, like millionaires in Manhattan, get to bask in all the parties and overpriced glory hype, everyone else rat-races themselves to early deaths.

    Seattle is expensive, bitter-rain hell. It’s like having a bad cold, most of the year. Gray, wet, depression-inducing, with only brief summer sprites. Traffic is no picnic either. The “grundge movement” birthed in Seattle, continues to churn at its cultural and political nethanderal levels.

    Weatherwise California always wins, but everything else is a toss-up. And yes, sure, some good in anyplace if you look deep enough, well excepting the entire State of Arkansas. Valley has ideas, and like-minds, a close comforting cult, Seattle has the great outdoors, just take the raincoat.

    Chicago, the most livable big-city, still has the Lake Mich. bitter cold, and the Miami paradise, has it’s soaring high-costs and sprawl. Nothings perfect, go where the job is.

  18. What work gets done in the midwest?

    Groan. Do they teach geography in schools anymore? Pretty much everything, with major centers on transportation, manufacturing and agriculture. And even holdouts like, Boeing, wishes it was all in Chicago, which in time, will happen anyways.

    Well, the Midwest lacks in Web 2.0 widget coding, though pockets (of evil) do exist in Cook County.

  19. What work gets done in the midwest?

    Groan. Do they teach geography in schools anymore? Pretty much everything, with major centers on transportation, manufacturing and agriculture. And even holdouts like, Boeing, wishes it was all in Chicago, which in time, will happen anyways.

    Well, the Midwest lacks in Web 2.0 widget coding, though pockets (of evil) do exist in Cook County.

  20. I’m glad all of you guys are eating up the anti-Seattle hype. It’s a good campaign to keep all the whiners out of here. You can have your two-season Valley weather, I’ll be at Green Lake tomorrow.

  21. I’m glad all of you guys are eating up the anti-Seattle hype. It’s a good campaign to keep all the whiners out of here. You can have your two-season Valley weather, I’ll be at Green Lake tomorrow.

  22. I would rather live in a small town and make far less than live in a big, built up soul-destroying area and have a fat wallet.

    I don’t like any of the major cities I’ve visited. Too many people, a veritible rat race, everyone scurrying around to get their piece of the pie no matter who they step on to get it. No thanks.

  23. I would rather live in a small town and make far less than live in a big, built up soul-destroying area and have a fat wallet.

    I don’t like any of the major cities I’ve visited. Too many people, a veritible rat race, everyone scurrying around to get their piece of the pie no matter who they step on to get it. No thanks.

  24. “One thing you shouldn’t miss is the amount of building that Microsoft is doing. Microsoft’s campus is absolutely huge now and getting much bigger.”

    Really?

    Visit Seattle! One of the sights that isn’t to be missed is Microsoft’s construction site! It’s amazing!

    …….

    Really???

  25. “One thing you shouldn’t miss is the amount of building that Microsoft is doing. Microsoft’s campus is absolutely huge now and getting much bigger.”

    Really?

    Visit Seattle! One of the sights that isn’t to be missed is Microsoft’s construction site! It’s amazing!

    …….

    Really???

  26. How about Silicon Valley vs. Bangalore?

    Now Bangalore has the highest number of software professionals in the world.

    On second thought, it is Silicon Valley and Bangalore
    which makes things happen.

    Jay, from Bangalore
    http://ideaburger.blogspot.com

  27. How about Silicon Valley vs. Bangalore?

    Now Bangalore has the highest number of software professionals in the world.

    On second thought, it is Silicon Valley and Bangalore
    which makes things happen.

    Jay, from Bangalore
    http://ideaburger.blogspot.com

  28. I thought Seatle has rain mines :-) as a major industry :-)

    expensive 400K houses lol i used to work in London (Camden) and there where some nice flats near buy that where 600K and thats 6 years ago.

    We had 4 bodies found with a 1/4 mile of the office cool place to work not sure if id want to live there all the time though

  29. I thought Seatle has rain mines :-) as a major industry :-)

    expensive 400K houses lol i used to work in London (Camden) and there where some nice flats near buy that where 600K and thats 6 years ago.

    We had 4 bodies found with a 1/4 mile of the office cool place to work not sure if id want to live there all the time though

  30. Robert – I live in the Boston area and commute up the Rt128 corridor between Waltham and Reading, which is the “Silicon Valley” of the east. Never been to SV nor Seattle but looking forward to both this summer. Does Microsoft have a tour of their facility as well for the public?

    Sach

  31. Robert – I live in the Boston area and commute up the Rt128 corridor between Waltham and Reading, which is the “Silicon Valley” of the east. Never been to SV nor Seattle but looking forward to both this summer. Does Microsoft have a tour of their facility as well for the public?

    Sach

  32. I would rather live in a small town and make far less than live in a big, built up soul-destroying area and have a fat wallet.

    What kind of flimsy soul did you get issued if it’s “destroyed” merely by a high population density of other souls?

    Fact is, Big City Life doesn’t destroy your soul so much remove (abrade, ablate, rip off) the delicate, sensitive outer layer your soul was born with. Eventually, you find yourself liking black coffee, lulled to sleep by street traffic, feeling a certain perverse camaradarie with everyone else stuck in traffic with you on your rush hour commute EXCEPT FOR THAT JERK WHO JUST CUT ME OFF, IT’S CALLED A ‘TURN SIGNAL,’ A–HOLE, IT’S ON THE LEFT SIDE OF YOUR F–KING STEERING WHEEL.

    But I digress.

    Eventually you take for granted your ability to see European art films, or walk to 27 different coffee houses, or satisfy a craving for really good ethnic food at 3 AM.

    Then — perhaps by accident — you visit the country and you find yourself apalled that they haven’t even heard of Alain Resnais, you have to get in the pickup and drive somewhere to get a cappucino, and that the local idea of “ethnic food” is a Chinese place that closed two hours ago.

    At the local sandwich shop, a simple request for organic field greens and shallots with prosciutto on whole-grain, gluten-free, Fair Trade bread is greeted with blank stares.

    Friendly stares, but yes, quite horribly blank.

    Those who leave this world as they entered it, with their shiny, tender, and yet VESTIGAL outer layers of soul intact are perhaps less interesting in the Next World. Just as water smooths stone, so does adversity build character. City Life does not “destroy” one’s soul so much as give it rather interesting and unique qualities, like aged and distressed leather, which is more valuable than raw cowhide.

    Observe also that one finds cowhide in the country, and valuable aged leather in the city.

    That said, not everyone is cut out for City Life. There’s a song about New York that goes, “If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere,” with the tacit assumption that, well, you, not everyone DOES make it there. Which is possibly why God invented Cleveland.

  33. I would rather live in a small town and make far less than live in a big, built up soul-destroying area and have a fat wallet.

    What kind of flimsy soul did you get issued if it’s “destroyed” merely by a high population density of other souls?

    Fact is, Big City Life doesn’t destroy your soul so much remove (abrade, ablate, rip off) the delicate, sensitive outer layer your soul was born with. Eventually, you find yourself liking black coffee, lulled to sleep by street traffic, feeling a certain perverse camaradarie with everyone else stuck in traffic with you on your rush hour commute EXCEPT FOR THAT JERK WHO JUST CUT ME OFF, IT’S CALLED A ‘TURN SIGNAL,’ A–HOLE, IT’S ON THE LEFT SIDE OF YOUR F–KING STEERING WHEEL.

    But I digress.

    Eventually you take for granted your ability to see European art films, or walk to 27 different coffee houses, or satisfy a craving for really good ethnic food at 3 AM.

    Then — perhaps by accident — you visit the country and you find yourself apalled that they haven’t even heard of Alain Resnais, you have to get in the pickup and drive somewhere to get a cappucino, and that the local idea of “ethnic food” is a Chinese place that closed two hours ago.

    At the local sandwich shop, a simple request for organic field greens and shallots with prosciutto on whole-grain, gluten-free, Fair Trade bread is greeted with blank stares.

    Friendly stares, but yes, quite horribly blank.

    Those who leave this world as they entered it, with their shiny, tender, and yet VESTIGAL outer layers of soul intact are perhaps less interesting in the Next World. Just as water smooths stone, so does adversity build character. City Life does not “destroy” one’s soul so much as give it rather interesting and unique qualities, like aged and distressed leather, which is more valuable than raw cowhide.

    Observe also that one finds cowhide in the country, and valuable aged leather in the city.

    That said, not everyone is cut out for City Life. There’s a song about New York that goes, “If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere,” with the tacit assumption that, well, you, not everyone DOES make it there. Which is possibly why God invented Cleveland.

  34. @25,

    Actually, the Dulles Technical Corridor in Northern Virginia is considered to be the Silicon Valley of the East. Every major player has a satellite office there, AOL is based there, Oracle has a MAJOR precense there because of DC’s proximity, Microsoft as well. Anyone else that counts is also there. SAIC, iDefense, UUNET, MCI, Sprint/Nextel, Juniper, Cisco, many dozens of others. It’s the only place I’ve ever lived as a techie where you can find a job within a couple of days no sweat. The drawback… houses start at like $600,000. Even a townhouse starts at minimum of about half a million. Not to mention state tax, county tax, city tax, luxury tax on cars/boats, and the insane beltway traffic that is suicidal on a daily basis. I lived about 20 minutes from DC. Takes over an hour sometimes. Toll road hell and toll road high prices. HOV lanes (a stupid idea). Ever see someone with a manequin in the HOV lanes? I have. It’s hilarious. Even seen a blow-up doll. The cops aren’t fooled and the tickets are much higher. It’s also a liberal hotbed. Almost as bad as Portland.

    80% of the world’s IP traffic flows through UUNET’s network there on a daily basis, since UUNET is basically the East Coast backbone.

    There are more tech jobs in Northern Virginia than there are in Boston and NYC combined. Let’s also not forget the federal government. The feds pump many dozens of billions into the local economy every year. This is one major reason that NOVA doesn’t have tech recessions like most other parts of the country. It’s also another reason why there is not a lot of outsourcing from NOVA. Most stuff is done locally by locals. I worked there for almost 15 years before moving west.

  35. @25,

    Actually, the Dulles Technical Corridor in Northern Virginia is considered to be the Silicon Valley of the East. Every major player has a satellite office there, AOL is based there, Oracle has a MAJOR precense there because of DC’s proximity, Microsoft as well. Anyone else that counts is also there. SAIC, iDefense, UUNET, MCI, Sprint/Nextel, Juniper, Cisco, many dozens of others. It’s the only place I’ve ever lived as a techie where you can find a job within a couple of days no sweat. The drawback… houses start at like $600,000. Even a townhouse starts at minimum of about half a million. Not to mention state tax, county tax, city tax, luxury tax on cars/boats, and the insane beltway traffic that is suicidal on a daily basis. I lived about 20 minutes from DC. Takes over an hour sometimes. Toll road hell and toll road high prices. HOV lanes (a stupid idea). Ever see someone with a manequin in the HOV lanes? I have. It’s hilarious. Even seen a blow-up doll. The cops aren’t fooled and the tickets are much higher. It’s also a liberal hotbed. Almost as bad as Portland.

    80% of the world’s IP traffic flows through UUNET’s network there on a daily basis, since UUNET is basically the East Coast backbone.

    There are more tech jobs in Northern Virginia than there are in Boston and NYC combined. Let’s also not forget the federal government. The feds pump many dozens of billions into the local economy every year. This is one major reason that NOVA doesn’t have tech recessions like most other parts of the country. It’s also another reason why there is not a lot of outsourcing from NOVA. Most stuff is done locally by locals. I worked there for almost 15 years before moving west.

  36. Again and again, this conversation goes like this:

    Seattle: “Seattle’s pretty nice. You don’t have to work all the time, you know.”
    SV: “MUST WORK! YOU DON’T HAVE ENOUGH VC! I NEED MORE FUNDING! FOR MY COCAINE/TWITTER HABIT!”
    Seattle: “Dude, relax. Try to live a little, enjoy things before you die of a heart attack at 45.”
    SV: “SEATTLE’S WEATHER SUCKS! AND YOU DON’T WORK HARD ENOUGH!”
    Seattle: “We like our weather, and we don’t want to end up like you.”

    And really, we do like our weather. There is beauty in rain and storms. If you want sunshine, stay out of our city. Californians behave badly, and aren’t really wanted here, and our weather driving them away is a giant bonus. If we could make it rain 12 months of the year instead of 9, it’d be perfect.

    Californians just can’t get it. There is more to life than work. Saying Seattle isn’t as good for working all the time completely misses the point. I’m sorry for you, but that’s going to kill you.

  37. Again and again, this conversation goes like this:

    Seattle: “Seattle’s pretty nice. You don’t have to work all the time, you know.”
    SV: “MUST WORK! YOU DON’T HAVE ENOUGH VC! I NEED MORE FUNDING! FOR MY COCAINE/TWITTER HABIT!”
    Seattle: “Dude, relax. Try to live a little, enjoy things before you die of a heart attack at 45.”
    SV: “SEATTLE’S WEATHER SUCKS! AND YOU DON’T WORK HARD ENOUGH!”
    Seattle: “We like our weather, and we don’t want to end up like you.”

    And really, we do like our weather. There is beauty in rain and storms. If you want sunshine, stay out of our city. Californians behave badly, and aren’t really wanted here, and our weather driving them away is a giant bonus. If we could make it rain 12 months of the year instead of 9, it’d be perfect.

    Californians just can’t get it. There is more to life than work. Saying Seattle isn’t as good for working all the time completely misses the point. I’m sorry for you, but that’s going to kill you.

  38. @Wreck: It’s a little more spread out than the Dulles Toll Road and Northern Virginia — Microsoft has offices in DC proper. Google just opened up shop in DC too. There’s a bunch more stuff in the Maryland suburbs up the wonderfully-named “I-270 Technology Corridor.”

    “UUnet” has gone through so many changes I don’t even know if it should be called “UUnet” anymore. I’d settle for AS701. What was it, UUnet –> MFS, MFS –> WorldCom, WorldCom –> MCI WorldCom, MCI WorldCom –> MCI, MCI –> Sprint? And somewhere in there they sold a whole lotta stuff to Cable & Wireless before going bankrupt, and I don’t even know what happened to C&W.

    those. were. the. days, my friend, we thought they’d never end…

    You’re right about the government — though in a lot of cases it helps to have a security clearance…

    Northern Virginia isn’t really a liberal hotbed; it just LOOKS that way compared to the rest of the state. Did you know the Racial Integrity Act was not repealed in Virginia until 1975? Apparently there was some Civil Rights thing in the 1960s that Virginia kind of missed. So being up in Northern Virginia and, you know, tolerant attitudes about certain things made you a liberal, if not a damn Yankee. ;-)

  39. @Wreck: It’s a little more spread out than the Dulles Toll Road and Northern Virginia — Microsoft has offices in DC proper. Google just opened up shop in DC too. There’s a bunch more stuff in the Maryland suburbs up the wonderfully-named “I-270 Technology Corridor.”

    “UUnet” has gone through so many changes I don’t even know if it should be called “UUnet” anymore. I’d settle for AS701. What was it, UUnet –> MFS, MFS –> WorldCom, WorldCom –> MCI WorldCom, MCI WorldCom –> MCI, MCI –> Sprint? And somewhere in there they sold a whole lotta stuff to Cable & Wireless before going bankrupt, and I don’t even know what happened to C&W.

    those. were. the. days, my friend, we thought they’d never end…

    You’re right about the government — though in a lot of cases it helps to have a security clearance…

    Northern Virginia isn’t really a liberal hotbed; it just LOOKS that way compared to the rest of the state. Did you know the Racial Integrity Act was not repealed in Virginia until 1975? Apparently there was some Civil Rights thing in the 1960s that Virginia kind of missed. So being up in Northern Virginia and, you know, tolerant attitudes about certain things made you a liberal, if not a damn Yankee. ;-)

  40. Meh. I don’t get what’s supposed to be bad about Seattle’s weather.

    In Seattle, I can go running any day of the year. In SV, I have to get up really early to run before the unbearable heat sets in. When I was in upstate New York, well, we had lake-effect snow. Seattle’s weather is actually *reasonable*!

    I guess SV is great if you sit indoors in an air-conditioned office all day, but really, Seattle is much more practical if you ever go outside.

    (BTW, “only a couple of hours away from” Seattle sounds like Redmond when the 520 is jammed, which is to say, most of the time.)

  41. Meh. I don’t get what’s supposed to be bad about Seattle’s weather.

    In Seattle, I can go running any day of the year. In SV, I have to get up really early to run before the unbearable heat sets in. When I was in upstate New York, well, we had lake-effect snow. Seattle’s weather is actually *reasonable*!

    I guess SV is great if you sit indoors in an air-conditioned office all day, but really, Seattle is much more practical if you ever go outside.

    (BTW, “only a couple of hours away from” Seattle sounds like Redmond when the 520 is jammed, which is to say, most of the time.)

  42. I came from FL to Seattle – no regrets here at all…Winter sucks – but I’ll spare a few months for a 14 Peek staring at me, lakes, no mosquito’s, and too much to do outside I get overwhelmed.

  43. I came from FL to Seattle – no regrets here at all…Winter sucks – but I’ll spare a few months for a 14 Peek staring at me, lakes, no mosquito’s, and too much to do outside I get overwhelmed.

  44. Consider doing the NUMMI (Toyota) tour in fremont instead.

    The one thing hard to beat is the 360 degree flight simulator in the flight museum

    Amit

  45. Consider doing the NUMMI (Toyota) tour in fremont instead.

    The one thing hard to beat is the 360 degree flight simulator in the flight museum

    Amit

  46. @ Karim,

    I survived almost ten rounds of layoffs before I left UUNET. It’s still owned by MCI now, and yes, it’s proper nomenclature is AS701.

    UUNET is still alive and well, if not in name. Some of the original guys are still there, but I cannot fathom why. Perhaps nostalgia, perhaps not.

    Karim, I’ve lived in big cities in the US, in the EU, and in Asia. I’m educated, have an appreciateion for art and good coffee, and yes, even the occaisional yuppie sandwich with nothing but organic constituent parts, but… small towns are for me. Unlike small town people who have no comparison to big city life and the benefits thereof (or lack depending on your POV), I’ve had both and made an informed decision that benefits me greatly. Let’s not even mention the fact that houses in small towns are still affordable. Taxes are almost nonexistent in comparison.

    You would be surprised at how many “smart” people there are in small towns. I’ve met former rocket scientists, professors, teachers, partical physics scientists, pilots, and everyday people. These people, too, abandoned the big city for small towns.

    I don’t and cannot tolerate traffic congestion. I did it for almost 15 years in the DC area, and I swore I would never endure it again. Here a traffic jam is a big rig making a wide right turn with a grandmother driving 5 miles an hour immediately behind him. I like it that way.

    I have a fast connection, a cell phone, a car and house. My neighbors are quiet. There are no parties, shootings, traffic jams. What more could I want? If I want to go to a museum, I’ll drive to the city, which, BTW is like 180 miles from me. My town is 15,000 people, actually a little too big for my liking. I’d prefer it to be about half its size. We have the obligatory Super Wal-Mart, strip malls, and the usual suspects in fast food. We have a movie theater that shows the latest stuff. We have cute local girls who aren’t pretentious and hung up on high fashion. We have tailgate parties at the lake in the summer. People still skinny dip here. Your neighbors will actually stop and help you when you break down on the side of the road.

    There are benefits to both big city and small town, but in the final analysis, I prefer my sanity and the quiet.

  47. @ Karim,

    I survived almost ten rounds of layoffs before I left UUNET. It’s still owned by MCI now, and yes, it’s proper nomenclature is AS701.

    UUNET is still alive and well, if not in name. Some of the original guys are still there, but I cannot fathom why. Perhaps nostalgia, perhaps not.

    Karim, I’ve lived in big cities in the US, in the EU, and in Asia. I’m educated, have an appreciateion for art and good coffee, and yes, even the occaisional yuppie sandwich with nothing but organic constituent parts, but… small towns are for me. Unlike small town people who have no comparison to big city life and the benefits thereof (or lack depending on your POV), I’ve had both and made an informed decision that benefits me greatly. Let’s not even mention the fact that houses in small towns are still affordable. Taxes are almost nonexistent in comparison.

    You would be surprised at how many “smart” people there are in small towns. I’ve met former rocket scientists, professors, teachers, partical physics scientists, pilots, and everyday people. These people, too, abandoned the big city for small towns.

    I don’t and cannot tolerate traffic congestion. I did it for almost 15 years in the DC area, and I swore I would never endure it again. Here a traffic jam is a big rig making a wide right turn with a grandmother driving 5 miles an hour immediately behind him. I like it that way.

    I have a fast connection, a cell phone, a car and house. My neighbors are quiet. There are no parties, shootings, traffic jams. What more could I want? If I want to go to a museum, I’ll drive to the city, which, BTW is like 180 miles from me. My town is 15,000 people, actually a little too big for my liking. I’d prefer it to be about half its size. We have the obligatory Super Wal-Mart, strip malls, and the usual suspects in fast food. We have a movie theater that shows the latest stuff. We have cute local girls who aren’t pretentious and hung up on high fashion. We have tailgate parties at the lake in the summer. People still skinny dip here. Your neighbors will actually stop and help you when you break down on the side of the road.

    There are benefits to both big city and small town, but in the final analysis, I prefer my sanity and the quiet.

  48. Since we’re on this topic abot Seattle, I have a few questions for people that actually live there, or have lived there for any length of time.

    Are there termites there?

    How is construction of homes done in the rain?

    Is grunge gone yet?

  49. Since we’re on this topic abot Seattle, I have a few questions for people that actually live there, or have lived there for any length of time.

    Are there termites there?

    How is construction of homes done in the rain?

    Is grunge gone yet?

  50. Yes. Yes. No.

    Grunge is not a fad there, it’s a feature. Lots of termites, mainly Dampwood, not quite the Southern Formosan, but only matter of time, plus the Moisture and Carpenter Ants, and the Busprestid, Lyctid and Deathwatch beetles, which can be just as bad. And oh, you do EVERYTHING in the rain there, get used to it.

  51. Yes. Yes. No.

    Grunge is not a fad there, it’s a feature. Lots of termites, mainly Dampwood, not quite the Southern Formosan, but only matter of time, plus the Moisture and Carpenter Ants, and the Busprestid, Lyctid and Deathwatch beetles, which can be just as bad. And oh, you do EVERYTHING in the rain there, get used to it.

  52. Most of the places I’ve seen were only for a day or two.

    What is the real difference between Portland and Seattle. I know they pretty much have similar weather/climate, but what are the differences that people that have lived or visited both have noticed.

    For some reason, Portland is attractive to me. I cannot fathom why. I could never talk politics there since I’m a conservative.

  53. Most of the places I’ve seen were only for a day or two.

    What is the real difference between Portland and Seattle. I know they pretty much have similar weather/climate, but what are the differences that people that have lived or visited both have noticed.

    For some reason, Portland is attractive to me. I cannot fathom why. I could never talk politics there since I’m a conservative.

  54. 36: (a) Not significantly; I’ve lived here for 20 years, and I’ve never even heard of anybody having termite trouble. (b) Uh, same as in the sun. Both houses and construction equipment tend to be waterproof, as long as you put the roof up before the carpeting. (c) Depending on who you ask, it was either dead before Kurt Cobain, or is still alive today.

    Rain is just a fact of life here, like sun in California, or humidity in the south. (We wonder how Californians get anything done — do you wait until sundown for the heat to subside? Experience says no, they just kind of ignore it, somehow.)

    How do you spot an out-of-towner in Seattle? They’re the one carrying an umbrella.

  55. 36: (a) Not significantly; I’ve lived here for 20 years, and I’ve never even heard of anybody having termite trouble. (b) Uh, same as in the sun. Both houses and construction equipment tend to be waterproof, as long as you put the roof up before the carpeting. (c) Depending on who you ask, it was either dead before Kurt Cobain, or is still alive today.

    Rain is just a fact of life here, like sun in California, or humidity in the south. (We wonder how Californians get anything done — do you wait until sundown for the heat to subside? Experience says no, they just kind of ignore it, somehow.)

    How do you spot an out-of-towner in Seattle? They’re the one carrying an umbrella.

  56. Portland is more Miami-feeling, youthful, vibe energy, moral yet seedy (historically at least, bootlegger city de jour), cultural, artsy, yet still all Midwesternish small-townish.

    Seattle is to Denver, as Portland is to Estes Park. Seattle is LA, as Portland is to Sacramento. Seattle is Chicago, as Portland is to Peoria.

    And oh, POWELLS, sorta Portland’s version of Arizona Bookman’s.

    @ken — And Californians? 4 kinds at least, Southern, Mid Northern, Extreme North and the Eastern Mountie’s. San Diego, Sac, Bakersfield and Redding are all but worlds apart, and San Fran is quite unto itself. So making a grand weather statement about “California”, is hazy at best.

    Politically, Portlanders are in the Stone Ages, though not quite Berkley or Boulder-level craziness, still pockets of common sense here and there.

  57. Portland is more Miami-feeling, youthful, vibe energy, moral yet seedy (historically at least, bootlegger city de jour), cultural, artsy, yet still all Midwesternish small-townish.

    Seattle is to Denver, as Portland is to Estes Park. Seattle is LA, as Portland is to Sacramento. Seattle is Chicago, as Portland is to Peoria.

    And oh, POWELLS, sorta Portland’s version of Arizona Bookman’s.

    @ken — And Californians? 4 kinds at least, Southern, Mid Northern, Extreme North and the Eastern Mountie’s. San Diego, Sac, Bakersfield and Redding are all but worlds apart, and San Fran is quite unto itself. So making a grand weather statement about “California”, is hazy at best.

    Politically, Portlanders are in the Stone Ages, though not quite Berkley or Boulder-level craziness, still pockets of common sense here and there.

  58. One noticeable feature of Portland: everyone appears to be a stoner; they probably are, given the city’s attitude towards drugs. Even by the relaxed standards of a Seattleite, they get nothing done, go very slowly, and aren’t really paying attention. This can be either charming (for short periods of time) or infuriating.

    There’s not much tech industry in Portland. No reason you couldn’t start a company there, but you’d have a harder time drawing in employees. Say what I will about MS’s “quality software”, it puts a constant stream of housebroken baby programmers out into the Seattle market, ready to be used as junior programmers in real companies.

  59. One noticeable feature of Portland: everyone appears to be a stoner; they probably are, given the city’s attitude towards drugs. Even by the relaxed standards of a Seattleite, they get nothing done, go very slowly, and aren’t really paying attention. This can be either charming (for short periods of time) or infuriating.

    There’s not much tech industry in Portland. No reason you couldn’t start a company there, but you’d have a harder time drawing in employees. Say what I will about MS’s “quality software”, it puts a constant stream of housebroken baby programmers out into the Seattle market, ready to be used as junior programmers in real companies.

  60. Well, I live in Germany. I’ve been in both cities. I think every place is better than here….. Not because of weather or sights. People and their ideas count.

  61. Well, I live in Germany. I’ve been in both cities. I think every place is better than here….. Not because of weather or sights. People and their ideas count.

  62. @41: I know that California is huge and has varied weather, but (a) somebody already claimed that Portland and Seattle had similar climate (ha!), so I figured we weren’t being very picky about such things, and (b) I found the sun to be virtually unbearable everywhere in California I’ve been, from San Diego to San Francisco. I’m not claiming CA has one climate, but the “lots of sun” thing seems pretty ubiquitous. More common in CA than “rain in Seattle”, at least!

    This post written from Seattle, where it’s clear and sunny, same as yesterday. :-)

  63. @41: I know that California is huge and has varied weather, but (a) somebody already claimed that Portland and Seattle had similar climate (ha!), so I figured we weren’t being very picky about such things, and (b) I found the sun to be virtually unbearable everywhere in California I’ve been, from San Diego to San Francisco. I’m not claiming CA has one climate, but the “lots of sun” thing seems pretty ubiquitous. More common in CA than “rain in Seattle”, at least!

    This post written from Seattle, where it’s clear and sunny, same as yesterday. :-)

  64. I found the sun to be virtually unbearable everywhere in California I’ve been…

    Don’t move to Florida then, as California is really mild, but it all just takes some getting used to, 3-4 months of intense heat, body chemistry literally adjusts. How do you spot tourists in California? They sweat, well that, and the 70s Griswaldy Midwesternry duds. I went through hell the first months of Palm Beach and somewhat for Del Mar, but then you butterfly into a new creature.

    Portland is slower paced, but not all that is ‘stoner’, it’s just the Melloncampish Midwestern flow, not the zam-fast big city pace, where everything is always a deadline, and everyone is on the California high-strung nerve wires. That said, sure alotta neo-hippie stoners, less than Seattle, but more spread out. In Seattle they all pack and hover, in Portland they filter out more, so even though less in overall, you come in contact more. So I understand the perception…

  65. I found the sun to be virtually unbearable everywhere in California I’ve been…

    Don’t move to Florida then, as California is really mild, but it all just takes some getting used to, 3-4 months of intense heat, body chemistry literally adjusts. How do you spot tourists in California? They sweat, well that, and the 70s Griswaldy Midwesternry duds. I went through hell the first months of Palm Beach and somewhat for Del Mar, but then you butterfly into a new creature.

    Portland is slower paced, but not all that is ‘stoner’, it’s just the Melloncampish Midwestern flow, not the zam-fast big city pace, where everything is always a deadline, and everyone is on the California high-strung nerve wires. That said, sure alotta neo-hippie stoners, less than Seattle, but more spread out. In Seattle they all pack and hover, in Portland they filter out more, so even though less in overall, you come in contact more. So I understand the perception…

  66. I wonder if 3 months of Seattle causes one’s body chemistry to literally adjust, too.

    (I mean besides all the drugs we’re apparently doing.)

  67. I wonder if 3 months of Seattle causes one’s body chemistry to literally adjust, too.

    (I mean besides all the drugs we’re apparently doing.)

  68. Well I am a Seattle native and worked at Microsoft as a contractor for 4 years. I had enough of it as well tried to relocate to SV and no IT folks were willing to pay me what I am worth and relocation plan. I even had Homestead.com give me a job offer of 12 bucks and hour in SV and I took that as a insult. So I am now with it company here and pays me more then Microsoft ever would and I am quite happy about that and staying here. So difference between SV and Seattle is the New York Stock Exchange office is located downtown SF. This is why there are more startups then Seattle will ever have. Seattle needs a New york Stock Exchange office here and this will create huge boom in funding for startups and jobs just like SV. Then we are competing with SV and it is all game fair and square.

  69. Well I am a Seattle native and worked at Microsoft as a contractor for 4 years. I had enough of it as well tried to relocate to SV and no IT folks were willing to pay me what I am worth and relocation plan. I even had Homestead.com give me a job offer of 12 bucks and hour in SV and I took that as a insult. So I am now with it company here and pays me more then Microsoft ever would and I am quite happy about that and staying here. So difference between SV and Seattle is the New York Stock Exchange office is located downtown SF. This is why there are more startups then Seattle will ever have. Seattle needs a New york Stock Exchange office here and this will create huge boom in funding for startups and jobs just like SV. Then we are competing with SV and it is all game fair and square.

  70. I would choose Seattle anyday over Silicon Valley….seattle is much more urban and managable. As far as the weather goes, what does it matter when you are inside working anyway, I find it much easier to concentrate, looking up and seeing a cloudy day than pining away, wishing you could go outside when its beautiful. What are you some big baby? Seattle is very expensive but pales in cost to San Jose.

  71. I would choose Seattle anyday over Silicon Valley….seattle is much more urban and managable. As far as the weather goes, what does it matter when you are inside working anyway, I find it much easier to concentrate, looking up and seeing a cloudy day than pining away, wishing you could go outside when its beautiful. What are you some big baby? Seattle is very expensive but pales in cost to San Jose.

  72. “In SV, I have to get up really early to run before the unbearable heat sets in.”

    “We wonder how Californians get anything done — do you wait until sundown for the heat to subside”

    Uh, SV is not in Arizona. Seattle gets hotter than San Francisco ever does. As for the hotter parts of SV like San Jose, it still doesn’t get very hot there.

    And by the way I can tell you as a Washington native that Seattle *is* really dark for most of the year. You have to like that kind of thing to like Seattle.

  73. “In SV, I have to get up really early to run before the unbearable heat sets in.”

    “We wonder how Californians get anything done — do you wait until sundown for the heat to subside”

    Uh, SV is not in Arizona. Seattle gets hotter than San Francisco ever does. As for the hotter parts of SV like San Jose, it still doesn’t get very hot there.

    And by the way I can tell you as a Washington native that Seattle *is* really dark for most of the year. You have to like that kind of thing to like Seattle.

  74. I have to disagree that the weather in Seattle sucks. It depends on what you call good weather. It’s refreshing here, cool most of the year, a lot less pollution (you can actually see the mountains and the coast all year round), I don’t have to slather on sunscreen in a panic every time I step outdoors and the traffic although bad is still not even close to what it is in L.A. As soon as you get out of Seattle proper, it’s very manageable. By the way, it’s foreigners who are driving the prices of homes up here as well as Californians. Californians aren’t the only ones moving here, there’s a vast array of nationalities coming here too. Anyway, I love it here and plan to stay. I’m addicted to the lush green scenery, beautiful mountains and valleys and the gorgeous Puget Sound. I feel much closer to nature and that’s how I like it.

  75. I have to disagree that the weather in Seattle sucks. It depends on what you call good weather. It’s refreshing here, cool most of the year, a lot less pollution (you can actually see the mountains and the coast all year round), I don’t have to slather on sunscreen in a panic every time I step outdoors and the traffic although bad is still not even close to what it is in L.A. As soon as you get out of Seattle proper, it’s very manageable. By the way, it’s foreigners who are driving the prices of homes up here as well as Californians. Californians aren’t the only ones moving here, there’s a vast array of nationalities coming here too. Anyway, I love it here and plan to stay. I’m addicted to the lush green scenery, beautiful mountains and valleys and the gorgeous Puget Sound. I feel much closer to nature and that’s how I like it.