Twitter’s lists make Chris Brogan feel bad

October 31, 2009 By

Chris Brogan wrote that Twitter’s Lists make Chris Brogan feel bad. Why? Because he sees them as exclusionary. Chris doesn’t like that lists exclude people, by their very design.

Here, look at my list of programmers. It excludes me.

That makes me feel bad, according to Chris Brogan.

Except, well, I’m NOT a programmer so why should I be on a list of programmers?

I can’t STAND this attitude that everyone should be included in everything.

I should NOT be on a list of golfing greats. Heck, I’ve never even played the game, but let’s say I played. Are you KIDDING ME by saying I should be mentioned in the same breath as Tiger Woods?

I’m not on my Venture Capitalists list either. Should I be included in that list? NOOOOO! First, I don’t have the money. Second of all, I don’t invest in companies. I SHOULD BE EXCLUDED from such a list and being excluded from such a list does NOT make me feel bad.

Oh, I didn’t make my Web Innovators list either. Come, now, is writing about the web innovative? No. I don’t deserve to be on that list. Damn it.

Sorry Chris, but life isn’t fair. Steve Gillmor tells me all the time I’m not in control of how people view me. That’s why I don’t feel bad about lists I’m not on.

I CAN control my own lists, though, and even when I do my own lists I leave myself off of most of them. That does NOT make me feel bad.

Chris: I think you just got included on my list of people who have bad opinions about lists. :-)

UPDATE: I had lunch yesterday with @nk who runs the team at Twitter who makes lists. He says “following” someone is just another form of lists. Since there’s 45 million people on Twitter and only about 100,000 that Chris is following, I’d guess that Chris is exclusionary.

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  • http://twitter.com/SeamusCondron Seamus Condron

    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

  • http://buhlerworks.com/wordpress JEBworks

    May Chris is just a bit too touchy feely on these things. Agree with you that exclusion is not necessarily bad.

  • http://rickmahn.com Rick Mahn

    Ugh. Is this the start of another A-List pissing match? I'm disappointed you even took the time to write about it.

  • jchutchins

    I completely see and sympathize with your point, Robert — and I also see and sympathize with Chris Brogan's perspective. Thankfully, Twitter is so flexible, it can be whatever its individual end-users wish it to be, and its users can use (or not use) whatever features they wish. Live and let live … and let go.

  • http://twitter.com/FrankKenny Frank Kenny

    I am loving the lists and am grateful just to be included on some. Mostly, I just want to provide value by creating good lists.

  • http://twitter.com/digitalvision Jeremiah Staes

    Brilliant. Finally.

    Not everyone wins. Not everyone is good at or likes or is involved in everything. I respect both you and Chris, but there's people who are good at stuff, and those who are not. There are people who can cook, and those who cannot. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, with different skill levels and experiences, and we should respect and honor that.

    At some point, as this stuff becomes more and more mainstream, we're going to have to realize it's impossible to include everyone in everything.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Oh, come now. It's not a pissing match at all. Chris has a different view of the world than I do. He wrote his opinion on his blog and now I'm writing mine on mine. And now you're chiming in. I'm not disappointed you took the time to call us on it. Why you have to be dissapointed? Have fun. I guess I just earned my way onto one of your lists. :-)

  • http://de-de.facebook.com/kostik Konstantin Gonikman

    I hope nobody will have an idea to create lists insulting human dignity, like a “list of assholes”. That way, I will feel bad not having a control over others' lists.

  • http://custservicestories.blogspot.com/ barrydalton

    I'm thinking Chris Brogan might get a little bloodied on this one. While admirable to have such an altruistic take (when you're currently on 1,862 lists) and want to share your success.

    Viewing lists however as exclusionary just misses the point completely. The folks at Twitter aren't sitting around trying to come up with more ways to inject high school into things by creating another way to form social media cliques. (enough social media folks doing a fine job of that on their own).

    Its actually completely the opposite. Its as simple as giving tweeters a more effective way to share and find other people with whom they have a common interest. Its word of mouth about your network. “Hey everyone, these are some people that you might want to check out. I've made it easy for you to find them.

    End of story.

  • http://www.mag.ma andrewbaron

    I love both of you guys. And I think the lists feature is the biggest sign of brilliance that the Twitter team has shown since accidentally discovering the platform. Here is my comment:

    One of the best ways to understand people's social media content/activity is to understand how it is defined by others. Though clearly this can lead to erroneous results, its otherwise an awesome style of “filtering” information on a platform like Twitter. This is great for discovery. Its pretty damn deep actually, I think people will continue to understand more of the useful applications in due time.

  • http://stopdoingnothing.com Patrick Allmond

    I think I need to buy both you and Chris a Tshirt:

    http://tweetphoto.com/gtbaebtn

    All in fun

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    You can block any user who creates a list which removes you from all of that person's lists. So, if you put me on a list of assholes I would be able to remove myself from it by blocking you.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Oh, Google makes ME feel bad. I don't rank for “Andrew” and that's a list!

  • http://www.sflare.com Eoghann

    I think this partly depends on what you think lists are for.

    I realize that you are primarily creating reference lists of “movers and shakers”. But Twitter is a social network and a lot of the lists are not that at all. They are lists of “favorite people” or “fun people”.

    Not everyone sees their followers as “people who provide value to their personal brand”. For a lot of people it's just about interacting with other people.

    Looked at from that perspective, lists that miss out people are likely to cause some bad feelings.

  • http://markdrapeau.blogspot.com cheeky_geeky

    Your logic makes no sense. Of course you shouldn't be on a VC list. But what if (say) Tim O'Reilly had a “smartest tech people” list, and lots of your peers were on it, but you weren't. Seriously, you wouldn't mind? That's Chris' point, which is one of many potential downsides of Twitter lists to users.

    Here's another. What if people start coming out with “shit lists” that you can't control. So, anyone that tweets mean things to me goes on a public shit list. You can easily see something like that being reciprocal and getting out of control.

    • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

      http://twitter.com/listing_all_the/
      Yep. I was curious what lists I was being included on… this lovely troll account popped up. Blocking it solved my issue – but this will become more and more common shortly.
      Fun having to track that sort of thing down all the time, eh?
      Would be particularly fun if that showed up on your Google search (not.)

  • http://rickmahn.com Rick Mahn

    Heh, :-) you're always on one of my lists (it just changes day to day). I do like the differing POVs as it makes me think more than I usually would.

    Here's a question for you: What about a corporate twitter account making a list? Would that constitute an endorsement by the sponsoring corporation? Would they understand that?

    Cheers Robert.

  • http://techie-buzz.com keithdsouza

    Lists in twitter is just a ego buster. I wonder how many people wake up every morning and check on how many lists they are :-D . I am pretty sure that there will be rants like this coming up very frequently in the future… uhm its better not to check how many lists one is on.

  • mikemyatt

    I really like Chris and the way he does business, but I'm afraid agree with Robert on this one. All things being equal, I'm in favor of inclusion vs. exclusion, but all things aren't, and shouldn't be equal.

  • http://rickmahn.com Rick Mahn

    Of course, to look at it another way – if Twitter had called them “Groups” and kept them visible only to the twitter account owner, would using them still be exclusionary? ;-)

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    If I think I should be on someone else's list, I'll ask nicely. If they don't put me on a list that I deserve to be on that list won't be as good as someone else's list that is more complete. Oh, and I'll just start my own list that's more complete. Why are my lists getting followed? They are more complete. Compare TechCrunch's “news” list, for instance, with mine. Which one is better? Which one is more worth following? Which one is more influential? Which one will be more popular?

    • http://thesocialjoint.com/ Lucretia M Pruitt

      Oh… now I’m wondering who else you left off of your complete lists? Popularity is not the same as accuracy.

  • http://twitter.com/You2Gov Alan W. Silberberg

    This whole “argument” is entirely subjective, as are the lists. This is not about how I do get on someone's list. It is about individuals making individual decisions that reflect their social media personality, not yours or someone else's. I think Chris is right to question it, but I think Robert is right to show the many benefits of these lists. Personally, I see this as the the “linkedin-ization” of Twitter. This brings the powerful flattened networking that Linkedin is famous for and makes it immediate and real time. I also think that the lists themselves will cause a whole new version of “social media capital envy” either way you look at it.
    Alan @you2gov

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    It's not how many lists you are on. No matter how many lists I get on I will NEVER be a golfing great. Numbers don't matter. It's WHAT LISTS people put you on and what they are named that really matters.

  • http://markdrapeau.blogspot.com cheeky_geeky

    I believe you'll make great lists. And I'm sure you can handle this scenario just fine. But what about the average person? I think that's more what Chris was getting at. Remember, Twitter's goal is to (1) keep current users, and (2) grow, a lot.

  • http://markdrapeau.blogspot.com cheeky_geeky

    I believe you'll make great lists. And I'm sure you can handle this scenario just fine. But what about the average person? I think that's more what Chris was getting at. Remember, Twitter's goal is to (1) keep current users, and (2) grow, a lot.

  • http://twitter.com/SeamusCondron Seamus Condron

    I'm creating a “one-eyed-renaissance-era-french-prostitutes” list. That's not in any way exclusive.

  • http://twitter.com/SeamusCondron Seamus Condron

    I'm creating a “one-eyed-renaissance-era-french-prostitutes” list. That's not in any way exclusive.

  • http://twitter.com/ChrisBrashear Chris Brashear

    If:
    1) Twitter List were made for the sole benefit of each account holder (e.g., make the twitter stream easier to sort/manage) then they wouldn't be listed and distributed publicly. (this is what should have happened and was overdue)

    2) Twitter list were made to be exclusionary then they would be openly traded and listed on each account.

    One thing is for sure… the new “list” feature will make the rich “richer” and the poor “poorer”, it clearly expands the reach of the upper class Twitter user while devaluing the “influence” of the average twitter user.

    (It also looks silly when one of those upper users takes shots at another, you can have a different opinion with out coming across as a jerk)

  • http://twitter.com/ChrisBrashear Chris Brashear

    If:
    1) Twitter List were made for the sole benefit of each account holder (e.g., make the twitter stream easier to sort/manage) then they wouldn't be listed and distributed publicly. (this is what should have happened and was overdue)

    2) Twitter list were made to be exclusionary then they would be openly traded and listed on each account.

    One thing is for sure… the new “list” feature will make the rich “richer” and the poor “poorer”, it clearly expands the reach of the upper class Twitter user while devaluing the “influence” of the average twitter user.

    (It also looks silly when one of those upper users takes shots at another, you can have a different opinion with out coming across as a jerk)

  • JimmyJet

    I go with Scoble's POV. If we could make multiple clones of ourselves to follow 'everyone' and/or multiple lists and as such include a universal set, great, but not there yet, so selectivity must be an option–which lists provide.

  • JimmyJet

    I go with Scoble's POV. If we could make multiple clones of ourselves to follow 'everyone' and/or multiple lists and as such include a universal set, great, but not there yet, so selectivity must be an option–which lists provide.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    Two list elements to also consider:

    (1) You can make them private. Concerned about the 'popularity' thing? Just hide the list.

    (2) You can list an account you don't actually follow with your main feed. This means you can chop out company news and other items that you may only want to check once a day. By doing so, they won't clutter up your main feed.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    Two list elements to also consider:

    (1) You can make them private. Concerned about the 'popularity' thing? Just hide the list.

    (2) You can list an account you don't actually follow with your main feed. This means you can chop out company news and other items that you may only want to check once a day. By doing so, they won't clutter up your main feed.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    Two list elements to also consider:

    (1) You can make them private. Concerned about the 'popularity' thing? Just hide the list.

    (2) You can list an account you don't actually follow with your main feed. This means you can chop out company news and other items that you may only want to check once a day. By doing so, they won't clutter up your main feed.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Bing! Oh, wait. Awesome! THAT IS HOW YOU SHOULD DO IT!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Bing! Oh, wait. Awesome! THAT IS HOW YOU SHOULD DO IT!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Bing! Oh, wait. Awesome! THAT IS HOW YOU SHOULD DO IT!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Private lists are lame. I make my lists to be helpful to my readers. If you make private lists that helps no one.

    • Skip

      That is incorrect – if I make private lists that helps me manage things.

      You’re coming from the viewpoint of the 0.00001% of the internet world that has an audience, so your perspective is very skewed. Of course twitter wants to cater to this because this gets them talked about, but catering to you doesn’t help, oh, about 100% of everyone else, give or take a bit.

      Note, I’m not actually on twitter, I looked at it a bit and realized that for about half of everyone I know on it, it’s a 2000s version of the old finger client, and for the other half it’s the equivalent of World of Warcraft guild chat, except outside of the game. In other words, a time sink I don’t have the time for.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Private lists are lame. I make my lists to be helpful to my readers. If you make private lists that helps no one.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Private lists are lame. I make my lists to be helpful to my readers. If you make private lists that helps no one.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    That is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Most of the people who have millions of followers (thanks to the suggested user list) aren't being put on many lists, and their lists aren't being followed the way those of you who are doing awesome lists are. It's a whole new game and the best lists ARE being noticed!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    That is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Most of the people who have millions of followers (thanks to the suggested user list) aren't being put on many lists, and their lists aren't being followed the way those of you who are doing awesome lists are. It's a whole new game and the best lists ARE being noticed!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    That is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Most of the people who have millions of followers (thanks to the suggested user list) aren't being put on many lists, and their lists aren't being followed the way those of you who are doing awesome lists are. It's a whole new game and the best lists ARE being noticed!

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Twitter needs to stop being seen as a “lame way to tell someone what you are having for lunch.” Lists help them there. Visit http://listorious.com and you'll see why.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Twitter needs to stop being seen as a “lame way to tell someone what you are having for lunch.” Lists help them there. Visit http://listorious.com and you'll see why.

  • http://scobleizer.com Scobleizer

    Twitter needs to stop being seen as a “lame way to tell someone what you are having for lunch.” Lists help them there. Visit http://listorious.com and you'll see why.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    They may seem lame if you look at them too narrowly. What if you want to follow your family in a special list without having to broadcast to the world _who_ your family is?

    To be devious, you could use private lists of people you don't actually follow for corporate intelligence gathering. Pretty useful if that's what you do.

    Lists are a tool – a tool with some customization that make them more useful to some people.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    They may seem lame if you look at them too narrowly. What if you want to follow your family in a special list without having to broadcast to the world _who_ your family is?

    To be devious, you could use private lists of people you don't actually follow for corporate intelligence gathering. Pretty useful if that's what you do.

    Lists are a tool – a tool with some customization that make them more useful to some people.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    They may seem lame if you look at them too narrowly. What if you want to follow your family in a special list without having to broadcast to the world _who_ your family is?

    To be devious, you could use private lists of people you don't actually follow for corporate intelligence gathering. Pretty useful if that's what you do.

    Lists are a tool – a tool with some customization that make them more useful to some people.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    Exactly.

  • http://www.ephealy.com/ Ed Healy

    Exactly.

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